why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

The following is Emei 12 Zhuang’s application philosophy

, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
, Sideway lock the untame bull’s feet.
, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

, I am remain within the silence
, open up to seduce the incoming attack
, This way I have an advantage of being the lead of the situation.

When one fusing this philosophy and the White Crane Center line concept. What do one get? IMHO, comes accept goes return, let go and trust forward, using silence to lead action with always targeted the opponent center line.

If that is not WCK what is WCK? find another TCMA style which do this and see if you could find it.

Furthermore, one now could examine how is the Snap, Slide, bounce power generation support this type of application strategy.

If you notice on Gary’s video on how close he is to the opponent once let passed in? Remember what I said about if wrong type of power generation will not get one closely stick with the woodern dummy?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

also check out the slide, snap, bounce here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BD8qor-yJ_A&feature=related

So, in conclusion, IMHO, from my view, there is a reason and signature of Why WCK is WCK. it is not everything is WCK. General Southern TCMA practice can not be WCK. One can practice CLF and doing the WCK woodern dummy set but unless he generate the WCK power and using WCK strategy he is not doing WCK…etc.

I am done here let you people have the fun.

42

Where can I find some footage for the “pure” Emei snake style?

Just curious (and thanks)

I won’t interrupt your WCK discussion. :slight_smile:

43

[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1047084]Where can I find some footage for the “pure” Emei snake style?

Just curious (and thanks)

I won’t interrupt your WCK discussion. :)[/QUOTE]

I cant, that is the reason Russell and JIm Rosenlado go visit the Gate keeper of Emei 12 Zhuang to learn the subject first hand with the details. Russell has been doing Yik Kam SLT for 20 years and JIm learn the Yik Kam power generation etc for years.

44

[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1047084]Where can I find some footage for the “pure” Emei snake style?

Just curious (and thanks)

I won’t interrupt your WCK discussion. :)[/QUOTE]

was yik kam mr. wrong way wong? wong wah bo wing chun already existed long before this junior yik kam little drilling (so-called yik kam slt). why is so hard to see these facts that wong wah bo never mentioned o-mei or white crane, leung yee tei never mentioned o-mie or white crane, leung jan never mentioned o-mie or white crane, chan wah shun never mentioned o-mie or white crane, ip man never mentioned o-mie or white crane, po fa lien never mentioned o-mie or white crane, wsl never mentioned o-mie or white crane, william cheung never mentioned o-mie or white crane? Only yik kam did. why??? because yik kam never finished his wing chun. well it turned out that he could only learn o-mie and white crane in order to make up what he was missing in his wing chun skill, and called it yik kam little drilling. the general public have noticed that yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. he knew that wong wah bo was the real wing chun master, and what he learnt was nothing more just some o-mie chi gung exercises. yik kam little drilling should be called yik kam little drilling which should not confuse with wong wah bo wing chun. otherwise, yik kam little drilling would become mr. wrong way wrong wing chun little drilling.

45

[QUOTE=RB93SAAT;1047119]was yik kam mr. wrong way wong? wong wah bo wing chun already existed long before this junior yik kam little drilling (so-called yik kam slt). why is so hard to see these facts that wong wah bo never mentioned o-mei or white crane, leung yee tei never mentioned o-mie or white crane, leung jan never mentioned o-mie or white crane, chan wah shun never mentioned o-mie or white crane, ip man never mentioned o-mie or white crane, po fa lien never mentioned o-mie or white crane, wsl never mentioned o-mie or white crane, william cheung never mentioned o-mie or white crane? Only yik kam did. why??? because yik kam never finished his wing chun. well it turned out that he could only learn o-mie and white crane in order to make up what he was missing in his wing chun skill, and called it yik kam little drilling. the general public have noticed that yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. he knew that wong wah bo was the real wing chun master, and what he learnt was nothing more just some o-mie chi gung exercises. yik kam little drilling should be called yik kam little drilling which should not confuse with wong wah bo wing chun. otherwise, yik kam little drilling would become mr. wrong way wrong wing chun little drilling.[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6FgOw9iDzk

46

[QUOTE=RB93SAAT;1047119]was yik kam mr. wrong way wong? wong wah bo wing chun already existed long before this junior yik kam little drilling (so-called yik kam slt). why is so hard to see these facts that wong wah bo never mentioned o-mei or white crane, leung yee tei never mentioned o-mie or white crane, leung jan never mentioned o-mie or white crane, chan wah shun never mentioned o-mie or white crane, ip man never mentioned o-mie or white crane, po fa lien never mentioned o-mie or white crane, wsl never mentioned o-mie or white crane, william cheung never mentioned o-mie or white crane? Only yik kam did. why??? because yik kam never finished his wing chun. well it turned out that he could only learn o-mie and white crane in order to make up what he was missing in his wing chun skill, and called it yik kam little drilling. the general public have noticed that yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. he knew that wong wah bo was the real wing chun master, and what he learnt was nothing more just some o-mie chi gung exercises. yik kam little drilling should be called yik kam little drilling which should not confuse with wong wah bo wing chun. otherwise, yik kam little drilling would become mr. wrong way wrong wing chun little drilling.[/QUOTE]

The fukc is your problem, I am not in WCK, I merely asked a question because I was curious about Emei Snake style history and information.

Don’t drag me into this.

Look at who you’re talking to before screaming at them.

47

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1047049]The only joke is your WCK education.

Those (chum (sink), fou (rise), tun (swallow), tou (spit)) are the four torso methods found in the SNT, and the basis of WCK body power.

They are a part of all LEGITIMATE WCK lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Pan Nam, etc. and as you pointed out yourself, is the basis for all southern fist (and WCK is a southern fist).

So a guy who doesn’t even know that chum, fou, tun, tao is a basic element of WCK has his own theory on the origins of WCK that doesn’t agree with Hendriks. Well, stop the presses. This is earth-shattering. We had all better stop and completely rethink things because some clueless guy doesn’t agree.[/QUOTE]

You’re not very good at reading are you?

I acknowledge that yes, various WCK motions can be describe in those terms but they are not native to WCK. There has been argument that Yuen Kay San studied some Weng Chun or other elements which may be where he got them. Looking at his brother’s lineage in Vietnam which has a hodgepodge of a ton of different CMA I’d be inclined to agree that’s the source.

In LEGITIMATE WCK we use “Loi Lau Hoi Sung/Lut sau chi chung” not “Tun/tou.”

What a surprise, someone who doesn’t even know the fist maxims of Wing Chun agrees with Hendrik. Good thing those presses are already stopped.

If Yik Kam Siu Lein Tao contained more Wing Chun and less O-mei and White Crane, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Then again, Yik Kam never called his system Wing Chun so I guess it’s a moot point to discuss it as such.

48

If Yik Kam Siu Lein Tao contained more Wing Chun and less O-mei and White Crane, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. Then again, Yik Kam never called his system Wing Chun so I guess it’s a moot point to discuss it as such.

o-mei is another style of tcma which got nothing to do with wing chun. wong wah bo wing chun existed long before thiis so-called yik kam little drilling.

Swallow, spit, lift, these are general southern CMA terms, but they don’t have anything to do with WC. Does WC do things that could be described in these terms? Absolutely, but they are foreign to our WC vocabulary.

i agree with you 100%. most wing chun lineages used loi luo hui sung instead of these terms “Swallow, spit, lift” except a few from chi sim weng chun.

49

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1046636]
Hi Hendrik,

I am familar with the White Crane’s Snap, and squat weight lifting type of bounce power generation but not the Emei’s snake continuous slide. I did a search, but wasn’t able to find anything that specificly discribe how the Emei’s snake continuous slide power generation is used in WCK.

Is the Emei’s snake continuous slide the sticking/adhering energy in WCK similar to tai chi’s reeling silk? ..[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046646]Just go baisi with a legitimate old timer WCner and you learn all of the above within WCK instead of getting side track.

Is tai chi reeling silk ? Get a Taiji guy to do WCK’s woodern dummy and see for yourself is it the same type of power signature? ..[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046905] Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent’s arm…

That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action.

So, in this perspective, SLT’s design belongs to the internal or "TaiJi " class of mechanics..[/QUOTE]

Hendrik, This is exactly what I was asking you to confirm above, not brain surgery or rocket science my friend:)

See that wasn’t so hard lol no need to go baisi to anyone for a simple discription of the terminology that you are using:rolleyes:

50

[QUOTE=RB93SAAT;1047119] yik kam himself never called his art wing chun during wong wah bo time. [/QUOTE]

A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam’s 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don’t call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.

51

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1047201]A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam’s 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don’t call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.[/QUOTE]

Good to know, thanks for the info KFF

52

Wait a second here… I’ve been absent from this thread for awhile, but I want to make a quick clarification.

In HFY we do employ Tun/Tou swallow/spit concepts. If fact it is in the advanced layers of our Bai Jong Baat Bo Gin form. Tun Kiu is the actual technique that follows our Wat Dai Wan Yun engagement technique.

http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1858&highlight=ton+kiu

I think Eric, is speaking strictly from his Yip Man Moy Yat background here. But I will say, he’s right about it seen more often in Weng Chun systems rather than Wing Chun systems

As in the previous YMWC I trained didn’t have the swallow/spit concept either.

53

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1047201]A friend of mine met up with some of the elders from yik kam’s 4 section SLT linage in china, while doing some research for me. They don’t call their system wing chun, they call it weng chun. This system is taught in two villages Yahu and Nga Woo.[/QUOTE]

people are always amazed yik kam never called his omie chi gung as wing chun and set it straight yik kam little drilling should be called little drilling. Unlike some nut called his omei little drilling as wing chun. Unfortunately, embracing new ideas (omei and sam chien) and being on look out for new way to relate to wing chun people grinds to a halt in many ma communities.

54

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1047053]Next we will to go visit the Uniqueness in WCK’s application strategy.

See how the snake and crane or the WCK Slide, Snap, bounce power generation support the application strategy.

and how WCK doesnt go for Center Line similar to other Southern TCMA and;
where is this “capturing Center line but not brute force” strategy is from?

We know, Center line concept is White Crane of Fujian’s uniqueness.

Let’s take a look at Sifu Gary Lam’s the WCk old timer clip and see if he goes brute force to do face on center line attack.. or he slide and passed…elegantly handle the incoming force ?
(PS. sifu Gary, thanks and appreciate for your sharing in youtube.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

see if he trying to capture or attack center line in a brute force and face on like some other Namkuen ? or he slide passed…elegantly without fighting force against force?

it just happen that what Sifu Gary does also exist in the Emei 12 Zhuang’s application strategy kuit as the following.

, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
, Sideway lock the bull’s feet.
, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

So again, IMHO,

when one fuse the White Crane’s Center line concept with the Emei’s strategy , one sees that type of signature in the WCK applications. in fact, that is Comes accept goes return…etc.

Check it out for yourself on if you could see the same kind of uniqueness in other Southern TCMA?

You dont have to believe me, check it out for yourself, take a look at how Hung gar does, White Crane san chin attack to the center line does…etc. See for yourself if that WCK uniqueness is in fact WCK’s signature.

If you want to see more on this type of WCK uniqueness, Get sifu Robert Chu’s DVD, there you will see it and also the snap, slide, and bounce. Sifu Robert Chu might uses a different terminology but those are there. WCK uniqueness is also across aboard signature. eventhought different WCK sifu has different variation but the signature is always there. Check it out.[/QUOTE]

Great clip by Gary Lam you posted, from there one can see how he borrows the incoming method of attack to seal his student off before attacking, controlling before striking

55

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1047053]

If you want to see more on this type of WCK uniqueness, Get sifu Robert Chu’s DVD, there you will see it and also the snap, slide, and bounce. Sifu Robert Chu might uses a different terminology but those are there. WCK uniqueness is also across aboard signature. eventhought different WCK sifu has different variation but the signature is always there. Check it out.[/QUOTE]

Hendrik, what is the “bounce” that you are referring to?

56

[QUOTE=theo;1047283]Great clip by Gary Lam you posted, from there one can see how he borrows the incoming method of attack to seal his student off before attacking, controlling before striking[/QUOTE]

Ya, the signature is there and we can trace to the Emei Kuen kuit… all the old timer WCner has the signature.

Thus, it is not the so called Southern Shao lin art as some think.

57

[QUOTE=theo;1047286]Hendrik, what is the “bounce” that you are referring to?[/QUOTE]

Here are some “bounce”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPXlQBETE-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoQS5oOYMVY

Again, different old timer has their own different " flavor" but it is there.

Bounce is a full body power generation in contrast with Snap which is often localized. you need both type of power.

You could find more in Sifu Robert Chu’s DVD under hammer and nail…etc.

58

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1047299] Bounce is a full body power generation in contrast with Snap which is often localized. you need both type of power.[/QUOTE]

When I do Snap, my whole body is connected as a unit, it’s not just localized.

Here is a clear explanation of bounce http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

Here is are some great training methods to develop the snake slide power generation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjs-roWT1zw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJteuieT7b8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgxmOeq3G9Y

59

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1047299]Here are some “bounce”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPXlQBETE-g&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoQS5oOYMVY

Again, different old timer has their own different " flavor" but it is there.

Bounce is a full body power generation in contrast with Snap which is often localized. you need both type of power.

You could find more in Sifu Robert Chu’s DVD under hammer and nail…etc.[/QUOTE]

Got it! This is actually a very interesting area on the subject because if one were to ask, what is WCK? what makes it different from karate or anything else? i’ve been stumped on that one before and never really got a good answer from anybody else. getting a few kuits or general ideas in response i.e. centerline doesn’t get down to the a,b,c of it. My thinking then was if you can’t identify what it is or should be, how do you know you’re doing it anymore? just that for one’s own sake, one should be able to identify WCK or any style by its training, power generation, and application approach since one leads to another. what i’m most curious about now is, how does one’s SLT train the power generation if this power signature is also a uniqueness of WCK? power is power in the end, a force vector but how is it issued. if seems logical to me that different training produces different power issuing mechanics/methods. but before even getting to generating power, what about being able to? as in, do we have the right foundation to do so.

60

When I do Snap, my whole body is connected as a unit, it’s not just localized.

That is because you still dont know what I am refer to but thinking you know.

Here is a clear explanation of bounce http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIJQrbD7jL8

Great Thanks!

Alan did an excellent job.

Here is are some great training methods to develop the snake slide power generation

You need to go baisi because you still dont know what snake sliding power generation means.

For example, look at the body distance of your clips
how is that compare with Sifu Gary or Alan’s clip above in term of body distance?