why is wing chun kuen wing chun kuen?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Yo!

Hendrick

What you posted was SICK! And by that you really, for the first time, posted something that was clear and concise and made sense.

I am sorry others aren’t getting it but what the hell.

What I think you are saying is WCK is the unique (to WCK) way of applying
Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float,
with Chi, Mo to Join, Borrow, Eat up, Guide and Expel force.

Crane seems to be press you away to suddenly jerk you back in or suck you in suddenly to explode into you. Snake seems to be drawing or loading and eating space and smothering to use structure destroying inch power.

I would love to hear more and if I am on the right track

Dave

22

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046568]Terence,

I know you are serious and
Let’s get serious. this is serious stuffs. the old one is fill with all kind of distorted mind posts and got nothing or little to do with the subject.

There are lots needs to look at and these are serious stuffs.

Hunt1 post an interesting post yesterday. the issue here is if one dont know what is WCK how can one know what one learn which is so called WCK is WCK instead of some mix up of Southern TCMA? That happen alots.

And also, how can one know what is one’s strenght and weakness while facing an opponent without knowing Why WCK is WCK?

One cant just claim one practice wCK and then using the karate strategy and power generation punch or Hung gar power generation to do SLT.

There are so many things can be discussed and shared and get educate on this why is WCK WCK issue.

First, the power generation,
By evidence,
In general, if we look at the power generation of say, Hung Gar, White Crane of fujian, and CLF. We can identify, Hung Gar is using the "lifting dead weight " type of power generation, White Crane of Fujian is famous for its snapping shock power generation, CLF is famous for its angular momentum swing.

As for WCK, WCK inherit White Crane of Fujian’s Snap or “inch power from join force” and Emei 12 Zhuang’s “snake slide worm moves” also the " squat lifting" type of power generation. These fusion make it suitable for close body action, one can see if one has this type of power or not by observing one’ action while doing the Woodern dummy, WCK suppose to stay close, stick, and snap… however, not every one or every lineage has this characteristic, IE if one using the General Southern TCMA’s “lifting dead weight” type of power generation, one will not do the same thing but got to stay far from the Woodern dummy because the power generation is different. So does in application and real life action. different power generation means a totally different thing.

Then, there is strategy of application, then there is body mind focus conditioning…etc all of these are key to know what is what and why is it.
It is all about technical and details. look at it and ask what is it. and see if it converge with the history tracks and records… Things are much clear then some think.[/QUOTE]

I’m not one of the lurking high hands nor an expert on some of the styles shown in those clips. However, I do think this is an important question. So perhaps we can look at it by first thinking about what are the “components” of an art. We have the training method or emphasis, which in turn affects power generation/types, which in turn affects the application. Hendrik has addressed a bit of the power generation here. And the signatures are what differentiate WCK from the other styles shown above. For example, you don’t see the Snake in White Crane, but both are apparent in WCK. I would venture to say that the training then, which must have an effect on the power generation, must also be different or distinctive. WCK training starts with SLT. I’m not sure of the method of the other styles, but WCK’s SLT must also be different to support the different power generation.

23

[QUOTE=Dave McKinnon;1046885]
What I think you are saying is WCK is the unique (to WCK) way of applying
Spit, Swallow, Sink, Float,
with Chi, Mo to Join, Borrow, Eat up, Guide and Expel force.

Crane seems to be press you away to suddenly jerk you back in or suck you in suddenly to explode into you. Snake seems to be drawing or loading and eating space and smothering to use structure destroying inch power.

I would love to hear more and if I am on the right track

Dave[/QUOTE]

Dave,

Yup. you are on the right track.

Yes, WCK is based on the basic such as spit, swallow, sink, float… center line…ect however it has its uniqueness and that uniqueness make is WCK.

It doesnt need to formulate things as I am because there are many ways to look at things. But WCK has to have uniqueness. and that uniqueness is the strenght. Also every WCK will have their own uniqueness, that is the reason they are a different lineage.

In the ancient china way, every art has a Tee (“body” of the art, structure, power generation…ect) and Yoong ( Application/function of the art, strategy of application, function..).

Both of them support each other. Here we are investigation the DNA or Signature of Tee, and certainly there is also DNA or Signature of the Yoong which we didnt look into it yet ( Ei. Sure WCK attack center line, but how? what is the unique way compare with the White Crane of Fujian mother art?)

You got to thank your sifu Robert on present you a comprehensive and balance art with its own uniqueness.

24

Yup, there is a reason for everything.

The unique power generation is called for to support the unique application strategy.

That Tee or "“body” of the art and Yoong the application of the art needs to be present and echo each other. That is the Ancient Chinese way of designing/ creating an art.

Also, the Ancient Chinese is using System Thinking type of thinking model which shows the inter relationship between each components of the system and also the dynamics of the system. it is not the western analytical thinking type of thinking patent. And one needs to use system thinking to describe the Ancient Chinese art to unlock what it is.

lots of people make the mistake of appliying the modern Western Analytical only thinking model to describe WCK. Thus, that will cause incompleteness and un able to get deep into the art. IE. to only focus on a single elements, such as Function.
For the Ancient Chinese, Function/ application without the Body of the art doesnt exist. One must has the Body to support the application and interm the application is to show the usefulness of the Body.

We are invesigating to understand what an Ancient Chinese Art is using the Ancient Chinese thinking model. We are not intepreting the art the way as we like to because that is meaningless but all kind of individual ego driven.

Why is power generation is important? because it shows one what is capability of the boundary or the limitation of the art beside describe what body of the art is. That is to identify the art.

One doesnt have to see the art the way I present, however, the Tee and Yoong must be clearly describe within their view.

BTW, if one doesnt know the uniqueness of the art, then the training such as doing SLT is a waste.

See, SLT cannot and must not be perform like a Taiji or like a karate or Hung Gar or southern TCMA set. if one do it that way it is not going to yeild result needed to support one’s real life application.

[QUOTE=theo;1046896]I’m not one of the lurking high hands nor an expert on some of the styles shown in those clips. However, I do think this is an important question. So perhaps we can look at it by first thinking about what are the “components” of an art. We have the training method or emphasis, which in turn affects power generation/types, which in turn affects the application. [/QUOTE]

25

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046792]Try this article. it might help.

http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-snake-and-crane-emei-connection/

look at the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKASkDfmV9g

Started 4.10 that is the Siu letter set of Emei 12 Zhuang which is believed to be the influence of the naming of SLT or Siu Lien Tau.

the way how Russell handle the arm, hand, and finger is the Snake slide worm move way.
Look at the technics and compare them with the SLT, CK, BJ… technics.

Emei 12 zhuang is also famous for its very adaptive compact technics, meaning a slight small adaptive changes move makes a different technics.

small means compact and details. meaning a seems to be continuous technics might have a few technics hidden within it. So it is very adaptive to response to changes.

It is much compact then White Crane and other art. and in order to have this compactness a different dynamic structure is used. Thus, the snake slide worm moves way is needed. and also due to this “small” capability, it means Jin or power can be generated in short distance IE Inch power or Short power as WCK trade mark Tui Keng.

One certainly can compare the above clip with the below Iron Wire clip and see the different effect interm of body handling, power type, and compactness due to different power generation or dynamic structure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqkZ_PQi6NM

Russell’s set was verified by the same Grandmaster of Emei as in Jim’s article above.

And if you compare with the clip below from the old old timer WCner of different WCK family look for yourself what happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiBMTLGfC3E&feature=related[/QUOTE]

The Crane energy is pretty evident in lots of the SLT clips out there but not so often the snake slide worm moves. What I mean by that is I don’t see it as obvious as it’s being demonstrated above. Curious to know how or if people are expressing it in their SLT? And how is that energy cultivated in their SLT? If SLT itself is a complete system, then it must contain the method to do so right?

26

[QUOTE=theo;1046903]The Crane energy is pretty evident in lots of the SLT clips out there but not so often the snake slide worm moves.

What I mean by that is I don’t see it as obvious as it’s being demonstrated above.

Curious to know how or if people are expressing it in their SLT? And how is that energy cultivated in their SLT? If SLT itself is a complete system, then it must contain the method to do so right?[/QUOTE]

Hope this explain what you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntCGIoMvM&feature=related

Crane is in general perform in an acute angle or snap motion. IE: your wist of the sun punch… etc.

Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent’s arm…

IMHO,
As soon as one doesnt use “brute force” and tense one’s muscle dead hard to make it as there is power, similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Gar while doing SLT; the snake will surface automatically. Look at the above Russell’s clip on how he did the set.
That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action.

The SLT is design to generate and strengthen the power by keep increasing the flow of the hand /body medirian’s Qi flow accord to the medirians everytime one practice SLT, instead of Tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension method of Hung Gar Iron Wire.
So, in this perspective, SLT’s design belongs to the internal or "TaiJi " class of mechanics.

Thus it is extremely important to do SLT with just enough force applied.

IMHO
The evolution of losing of Snake in WCK for past few decades is a trend, thus more and more WCK default to White Crane style or become “harder” and not as “compact in details.”

With the post 1920 introduction of Kiu Sau concept in many lineages as in other Southern TCMA the Snake further fade away due to the “Tracking and continuous” action become a “discrete” action. and thus the capability of Short/inch soft (yao) Jin is vanishing due to the discrete action doesnt support the Short Jin cultivation.

Today, A good reference on what WCK more closely look like is the Koo Lo Fung family type perform by their senior.

27

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046905]Hope this explain what you ask.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3ntCGIoMvM&feature=related

Crane is in general perform in an acute or snap angle motion. IE: your wist of the sun punch… etc.

Snake is flowing continuously, IE: your huen sau cycling in SLT. or when the hand smoothly turn into a lap sau while tracking the opponent’s arm…[/QUOTE]

Thanks Hendrik! I see what you mean now. Without starting a war of words about different lineages and families. It seems those qualities are emphasized more or less depending on how it was taught to each of us…For example, I’ve heard before how the wrist in fook sau is to be pulled tight and that in retrospect, does cut the energy off right there. Or forcing the elbow into the center, that also doesn’t seem to be natural, producing a forced tightness in my experience. In the clip you showed here, I see you also have the “worm” moves in the “sam bai fut” section? I also thought it was very interesting when you spoke about simply using intention on the lao-gong to move there!

28

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046905]Hope this explain what you ask.

IMHO,
As soon as one doesnt use “brute force” and tense one’s muscle dead hard to make it there is power similar to the Iron Wire of Hung Gar while doing SLT the snake will show.
That is because the arm movement automatically default into a smooth continuous flowing action. The SLT is design to generate and strengthen the power by keep increasing the flow of the hand’s /body medirian’s Qi flow accord to the medirians instead of Tensing and relaxing style of Hung Gar Iron Wire. So, in this perspective, SLT is design close to the TaiJi class of mechanics.

Thus it is extremely important to do SLT with just enough force applied.

IMHO
The evolution of losing of Snake in WCK for past few decades is a trend, thus more and more WCK default to White Crane style or become “harder” and not as “compact in details.”[/QUOTE]

I have to agree, as I have myself been using tense structure in the beginning (maybe most of us do? :p) but recently have begun to notice more of the natural automatic default that you mentioned…it’s interesting why the Snake is fading out, not implying who has or doesn’t have it. To me, that aspect seems to require a different mindset, one where you’d have to be more sensitive to the energy you feel…Just that from what I’ve observed, I did not encounter the type of “adaptive” flow that would occur but more of “hard” energy being exchanged.

29

[QUOTE=theo;1046908]Thanks Hendrik! I see what you mean now. Without starting a war of words about different lineages and families.

It seems those qualities are emphasized more or less depending on how it was taught to each of us…

For example, I’ve heard before how the wrist in fook sau is to be pulled tight and that in retrospect, does cut the energy off right there. Or forcing the elbow into the center, that also doesn’t seem to be natural, producing a forced tightness in my experience.

In the clip you showed here, I see you also have the “worm” moves in the “sam bai fut” section? I also thought it was very interesting when you spoke about simply using intention on the lao-gong to move there![/QUOTE]

1, re read my post above, I just add more information.

2, Yes, it is depending on Lineage because evolution is nature and serve a good purspose. However, IMHO, we must know why is it as it is at every step of evolution.

3, IMHO, the today’s general knowledge on Chinese TCMA is no longer enough to support the training of SLT. Thus, I brought up what it is at 1850 era to show the existance of those elements.

4, when one do Fook Sau that way, it serves one one purpose with a trade off of the flow of energy or adaptiveness. if one face a Hung Gar iron hand bridge then there will be a crush of power … as soon as one knows it that is fine.

My thesis here is not to say what is right or wrong but what are the components and uniqueness of WCK , you can formulate your own WCK as you like it, it is perfectly ok for me.

30

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046911]1, re read my post above, I just add more information.

2, Yes, it is depending on Lineage because evolution is nature and serve a good purspose. However, IMHO, we must know why is it as it is at every step of evolution.

3, IMHO, the today’s general knowledge on Chinese TCMA is no longer enough to support the training of SLT. Thus, I brought up what it is at 1850 era to show the existance of those elements.

4, when one do Fook Sau that way, it serves one one purpose with a trade off of the flow of energy or adaptiveness.[/QUOTE]

Yup, so if all those elements are what makes WCK WCK, then they key to all of the above is in SLT. But, as you said, there must be a specific way to train SLT in order to develop progressively. It doesn’t make sense to repeat it a million times to know…

31

[QUOTE=theo;1046912]Yup, so if all those elements are what makes WCK WCK, then they key to all of the above is in SLT. But, as you said, there must be a specific way to train SLT in order to develop progressively. It doesn’t make sense to repeat it a million times to know…[/QUOTE]

yes, thus, it said " the whole body must not using brute force" otherwise one doesnt get the result.

See, there are two ways of how to cultivate power in general. By tensing and relaxing. or by guiding the flow to promote strength. and SLT IMHO is design as the second type.

So using tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension will not produce the same power result as the guiding the flow.

However, guiding the flow is not that easy to truly practice because it needs to relax every part of the body and it takes time to see result ; compare with if you tense your arm you feel POWER.

So, as in the internal art practice, when you dont feel power you actually has power when you feel power you are actually tense up a certain area of your body and the power is not flowing out…etc.

That is the reasons behind all of these ancient training method and as how different people like to do with their WCK that is up to them and I respect it all.;

32

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046911]

My thesis here is not to say what is right or wrong but what are the components and uniqueness of WCK , you can formulate your own WCK as you like it, it is perfectly ok for me.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there’s no one way to express it, but at the same time, whatever one’s WCK is, it should still have the WCK signatures to be WCK.

33

[QUOTE=theo;1046914]Yes, there’s no one way to express it, but at the same time, whatever one’s WCK is, it should still have the WCK signatures to be WCK.[/QUOTE]

With the present situation of WCK evolution,
I am thinking of release the full section one of Yik Kam SLT Kuen Kuit.
This way, WCner has one more reference point for their practice and second opinion.

honestly, My only concern as a Buddhist is to not provide Weapons for people to hurt each others. and most of us who practice martial art always keep looking for more powerful weapons, with the SLT kuen kuit, I really dont like to see it was use to hurt others. That is actually doing a reverse service to screw others.

34

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1046913]yes, thus, it said " the whole body must not using brute force" otherwise one doesnt get the result.

See, there are two ways of how to cultivate power in general. By tensing and relaxing. or by guiding the flow to promote strength. and SLT IMHO is design as the second type.

So using tensing and relaxing or dynamic tension will not produce the same power result as the guiding the flow.

However, guiding the flow is not that easy to truly practice because it needs to relax every part of the body and it takes time to see result ; compare with if you tense your arm you feel POWER.

So, as in the internal art practice, when you dont feel power you actually has power when you feel power you are actually tense up a certain area of your body and the power is not flowing out…etc.

That is the reasons behind all of these ancient training method and as how different people like to do with their WCK that is up to them and I respect it all.;[/QUOTE]

You know, at some point, we all have heard how “soft” WCK should be. That’s a whole other kettle of fish to pinpoint “soft” because it can mean different things to different people…

By “guiding the flow” you mean the qi?

35

[QUOTE=theo;1046916]You know, at some point, we all have heard how “soft” WCK should be. That’s a whole other kettle of fish to pinpoint “soft” because it can mean different things to different people…

By “guiding the flow” you mean the qi?[/QUOTE]

“soft” sure can mean different things to different people, if one likes to take it out of context and doing all kind of intepretation.

However, it is a Chinese martial art, so if one follow the Ancient Chinese definition
it is as simple as

"loose and whole in physical, nature in breathing, and a quiet mind. "

Then, things are very clearly define and not up for intepretation.

Also, if one has the Kuen Kuit one can further confirm it.

Such as

The whole body must not stick to any “excessive” force
, spontaneously , nature-ly , accord to the flow of the medirians
carefully tasting the "details : is the wonderful instruction ( to cultivate the art)

Things are very clearly define.

Yup. the SLT is practiced coordinate the Qi, breathing, and physical movement flow. as it said in the kuen kuit above.

Bottom line, wrong direction will arrive at a wrong place. So, it is problematic when free thinking without Ancient Chinese back ground thinking everything is correct that cause problem.

36

With the crane and snake signature, one could look into different lineages of WCK and see for oneself if the signature is truely embeded there disregards of how the story often was told.

look at this Chan Wa Weng Chun Kuen SL clip starting 8.55

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

We know Crane is more obvious to be seen in SLT/SNT …etc now
keep compare different lineages’ set practice with the Emei set above which Russell is practiced see for yourself, if Snake slide signature actually is hidden within the SLT/ SNT/SL set?

look at the wrist, some times snap, some times continouos slide and flow and twist…etc.

In the clip, noticed that at the end section start 10.44 the set turn into a moslty White Crane type of art. Which lead to a question of who evolve this section of the art? how come the snake is fading? when and why this happen?

So, Snake slide and crane snap are two key elements of the core of WCK-- the SLT disregards of many different lineages. That is the uniqueness.

As we know we can trace in Chinese official history the existance of White Crane of Fujian since mid 1600. Emei 12 Zhuang (snake type) since 1300 ( one can go to the Beijing museum to check out the lotus cannon of Emei 12 Zhuang.) These two type of arts are identify able.

37

The “information” in this thread is a joke.

Swallow, spit, lift, these are general southern CMA terms, but they don’t have anything to do with WC. Does WC do things that could be described in these terms? Absolutely, but they are foreign to our WC vocabulary.

These are from the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system’s white crane and O-mei influence, not having to do with wing chun. If Yik Kam had finished his WC, he would use the terms like the rest of the lineages do, without the need for borrowing from other CMA.

As for all this snake slidey nonsense, you can generate power that way for sure, but it’s nothing to do with WC. I also don’t think white crane is a “mother art” to WCK, could it have been an influence? sure. If Hendrik can point me out where white crane birthed Wong Wa Bo’s WC I’d be happy to entertain the idea. Till then, he’s just talking an MMA of CMA.

I’m sure this post will get the thread deleted again as Hendrik only wants to hear from people who agree with and suck up to him :rolleyes:

38

Sure the information in this thread is a joke because lots of people believe in HIS-STORY will start crying.

From Fung Family of Ko Loo to Pao fa Lien to Chan Wah, across the TRACE able older Wing Chun Kuen lineage all has the snake and crane signature. So what is the probability of the same elements appear again and again in different unrelated WCK lineages is infact the core elements?

When the tool of analysis clearly presented to be public, HIS-STORY fall a part like a land slide isnt it?

[QUOTE=Eric_H;1047037]The “information” in this thread is a joke. [/QUOTE]

39

[QUOTE=Eric_H;1047037]The “information” in this thread is a joke.

Swallow, spit, lift, these are general southern CMA terms, but they don’t have anything to do with WC. Does WC do things that could be described in these terms? Absolutely, but they are foreign to our WC vocabulary.
[/QUOTE]

The only joke is your WCK education.

Those (chum (sink), fou (rise), tun (swallow), tou (spit)) are the four torso methods found in the SNT, and the basis of WCK body power.

These are from the Yik Kam Siu Lien Tao system’s white crane and O-mei influence, not having to do with wing chun. If Yik Kam had finished his WC, he would use the terms like the rest of the lineages do, without the need for borrowing from other CMA.

They are a part of all LEGITIMATE WCK lineages, from YKS to YM to Gu Lao to Pan Nam, etc. and as you pointed out yourself, is the basis for all southern fist (and WCK is a southern fist).

As for all this snake slidey nonsense, you can generate power that way for sure, but it’s nothing to do with WC. I also don’t think white crane is a “mother art” to WCK, could it have been an influence? sure. If Hendrik can point me out where white crane birthed Wong Wa Bo’s WC I’d be happy to entertain the idea. Till then, he’s just talking an MMA of CMA.

I’m sure this post will get the thread deleted again as Hendrik only wants to hear from people who agree with and suck up to him :rolleyes:

So a guy who doesn’t even know that chum, fou, tun, tao is a basic element of WCK has his own theory on the origins of WCK that doesn’t agree with Hendriks. Well, stop the presses. This is earth-shattering. We had all better stop and completely rethink things because some clueless guy doesn’t agree.

40

Next we will to go visit the Uniqueness in WCK’s application strategy.

See how the snake and crane or the WCK Slide, Snap, bounce power generation support the application strategy.

and how WCK doesnt go for Center Line similar to other Southern TCMA and;
where is this “capturing Center line but not brute force” strategy is from?

We know, Center line concept is White Crane of Fujian’s uniqueness.

Let’s take a look at Sifu Gary Lam’s the WCk old timer clip and see if he goes brute force to do face on center line attack.. or he slide and passed…elegantly handle the incoming force ?
(PS. sifu Gary, thanks and appreciate for your sharing in youtube.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68

see if he trying to capture or attack center line in a brute force and face on like some other Namkuen ? or he slide passed…elegantly without fighting force against force?

it just happen that what Sifu Gary does also exist in the Emei 12 Zhuang’s application strategy kuit as the following.

, Never stop the rushing horse incoming power.
, Sideway lock the bull’s feet.
, Seal off and close the opponent down borrowing the method of incoming attack.

So again, IMHO,

when one fuse the White Crane’s Center line concept with the Emei’s strategy , one sees that type of signature in the WCK applications. in fact, that is Comes accept goes return…etc.

Check it out for yourself on if you could see the same kind of uniqueness in other Southern TCMA?

You dont have to believe me, check it out for yourself, take a look at how Hung gar does, White Crane san chin attack to the center line does…etc. See for yourself if that WCK uniqueness is in fact WCK’s signature.

If you want to see more on this type of WCK uniqueness, Get sifu Robert Chu’s DVD, there you will see it and also the snap, slide, and bounce. Sifu Robert Chu might uses a different terminology but those are there. WCK uniqueness is also across aboard signature. eventhought different WCK sifu has different variation but the signature is always there. Check it out.