for those who is interested only
In term of the Jin DNA of Wck snt,
The following of force doesn’t support the flow of "using center guarding center " momentum DNA of Wck.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=CPGc1bEqtPw
Thus, it cannot be Wck.
Similarly, the following is also a different art even though it play soft and slow, it is not using the snake body DNA , one can see the different via how the seven bows or joints handling, as one can see in Wck snt one tan three fook section .
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pFVFm81p4M&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_pFVFm81p4M
I think this is one of your better explanations so thanks!
When you are talking about the joints (bows) and the snake analogy, how do you treat the spine? I ask as that is technically many joints. Whats more the spine seems, to my mind at least, more apt for the analogy of the snake?
I have seen some practitioners incorporate spinal movements and go into depth discussing them on their youtube channels; I was thinking about Sifu Fernandez here so perhaps some LT practitioners could inform me better (I think LT is where Sifu Fernandez got his ideas about the spine in such a context?)
I think this is one of your better explanations so thanks!
You are welcome. I try to communicate as much as I can
When you are talking about the joints (bows) and the snake analogy, how do you treat the spine? I ask as that is technically many joints. Whats more the spine seems, to my mind at least, more apt for the analogy of the snake?
The snake slide worm move technology or DNA of snt from the emei 12 zhuang treat the spine or the smaller joints as worm move while the big joints as snake slide.
In general, The reason of only mention the seven joints because those can take force.
While spine must not be used to handle force directly , spine is fragile, one must keep the spine lively and not in stress condition at any means. Don’t mess the spine up.
I have seen some practitioners incorporate spinal movements and go into depth discussing them on their youtube channels;
Dealing with spine is dealing with du medirian.
So, it is more complex then to deal with it alone as many think.
Keep it natural and flexible is the way to go. If one doesn’t know how to deal with it. In any case you must not feel your spine. Once you feel it you has load it. Do be careful. Don’t screw up your lower back thinking you can use your dantian…etc.
sometimes people import stuffs from taiji but Wck is not taiji , has a different way of handling force. This is where the snake body and force flow path dna is critical. Analog to one doesn’t brute force driving transmission gear.
Using the seven joints or bows as a collective whole instead of any single joint.
In yik kam slt kuen kuit, it says " union in Dan Dian , du medirian , sinking." Which is dealing with open up the joints of the spine and the Qi flow. Those are higher level of deal.
In Yik kam transform drill two and three, spine is open up and activate. But I purposely not emphasis it because I don’t want people to play smarts and screw themself up.
So, if you felt your spine is not natural. Do the YKT drill two and three , it will help it naturally. These drill are purposely design to be there because the the Wck sets have subtle prerequisite which is not easy to handle. So, I brought in the drill two and drill three which are proven safe to help .
So, does late Gm Ipman also teaches the DNA?
Sure, read the attach gm ipman new martial hero magazine interview photo scan.
he just use different terminology and express it In a different way.
And I call it coil spring, snake body he called it rattan. I call it force vector injection he called it hammer a nail into…
So, don’t keep accuse me as trying to promote my lineage.
In fact, I am sharing red boat era Wck info , one can see all these 160 years and across different wck lineages collective info converge. Also I say nothing about superior or old time is better or old time is the ultimate. I just say how Wck were. Don’t we in the west want to know the facts direct from Gm Ipman, yik kam 1850 teaching, snake crane Wck 1890 notebook? And now we know, the core from different red boat lineags are consistence and converge.
And the following article
[B]Wing Chun Flourishes
The second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness, arose and flourished over the next 100 years. During this era, Wing Chun went through its third period of major change in form, footwork, and structure. Environmental and cultural factors such as exposure to life on boats in the southern coastal regions of China for over 100 years may have heavily influenced stances and training methodologies. The art began a transition from military employment to civilian use and support.
As a result of this transition, Wing Chun outside the Hung Fa Yi tradition began to discard its scientific orientation and revert back to a focus based on individual expressions and personal experience.
Likewise, students were no longer required to endure hours of initiation ceremonies and blood oaths to fight to the death for a specific cause. Nevertheless, Wing Chun’s fighting effectiveness continued, as repeatedly demonstrated in challenge matches with other styles and individual opponents.
The majority of today’s most popular lineages stem from roots in this era. Two of those lineages stem from one man alone for each: Yip Man and Gu Lao (g? l?uh). Both originated from Dr. Leung Jan (l?uhng jaan), who learned his Wing Chun directly from Red Opera members. Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien (p?auh f? l?hn), Yuen Kay San (y?n k?ih-s?an), Pan Nam (p?ahng n?ahm), Nanyang (n?ahm y?uhng), Cho family (ch?uh ga), and numerous subsystems practiced throughout Southeast Asia.
The legends of Wing Chun’s roots also flourished during this period. The famous story of a young woman trained by a Buddhist nun creating and disseminating the art through the Red Boat Opera became quite popular. Ex-revolutionaries distancing themselves from the secret societies and governmental persecution most likely promoted the popularity of this legend. Many popular Chinese fictional books and magazines were written and published at the turn of the century. Many fables about martial arts orientation resulted from the stories in these works, including the legend of Yim Wing Chun (y?hm wihng che?n). It is important for all students of history to note that these were purely fictional works, not historical treatises. Nevertheless, they still fueled legends.[/B]
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141
doesn’t fit into the 160 years of Wck DNA, wck related Chinese official history and hung mun record.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1237569]
[…] Don’t we in the west want to know the facts direct from Gm Ipman, yik kam 1850 teaching, snake crane Wck 1890 notebook? […]
[/QUOTE]
There is no way I could know such facts directly. For me it is always going to be second hand even if I were to speak the language and be able to research it for myself; Ip Man is dead, red boat opera practitioners are dead.
A document is still secondary data and requires a bit of faith to take it on face value. Is it a forgery? Has it been dated? Having a solid independently verified dating of this document is paramount, if you want to have others take you seriously.
In the UK there are many well known Sifus who have a lot vested in maintaining the ‘authority’ of their lineage and ‘closeness’ to Ip Man on the wing chun family tree. There is, relatively, a lot of money at stake there for some. The following is an example but a realistic one I think.
For example you charge, say, £45-£50 a month for your students to train at your classes and you have, across a number of different schools and locations, 200 students. That’s somewhere between £9000-£10000 a month before costs are taken. However, we have yet to even add on additional incomes from private lessons (£35-£40 p/h), specific school training kit (£10-£25), weekend training camps (£45-£50), an online-tuition video service (£9 per month) or even £30-£40 charged per digital copy of a class photograph of a 100 or so students and instructors. You should expect no less than derision and ridicule from them under such circumstances, even if your argument is independently verified by qualified others.
On the spine in 1850 era.
The Sifu I mentioned uses exactly the same language you did when describing and explaining the spiral motion, with the aid of your wooden dummy.
The same ideas are then used to describe how he uses rotation in the spine, where hips and shoulders turn in different directions to one another (CK), to spiral and corkscrew into the opponents structure. I have also watched him explain a different type of spiral movement, ‘relaxing the spine and curving it in to receive and draw in what comes’ and then ‘straightening the spine to expand out and follow what goes’.
Could you be a little more specific or perhaps offer up a video as to the topic of the ‘spine’ in 1850 era WC? I know you say there is danger in terms of injury but I think some of us are sensible enough to hear such knowledge. Perhaps a private youtube video if you do have grave safety concerns?
On the spine in 1850 era.
It is not that much of 1850 era but a holistic understanding of the topic.
The Sifu I mentioned uses exactly the same language you did when describing and explaining the spiral motion,
Language is trouble . Do not get mislead by thinking knowing the language knowing the facts.
For example, we all say, loose and open up the spine. A simple concept everyone knows how to repeat, but the fact is: what I can do today with my spine is not what I can do last year due to my Development of spine has gone a level deeper.
Until experience it following a process of development, The mind doesn’t know the spine, even it thinks it knows.
One simply cannot just listening to some ideas and thinking that is it. One cannot control the spine because one know the idea. What in the reality is the spine condition of everyone is different, young, old, sick , strong, blue collar worker, computer worker…
So, it is not that simple.
[B]The same ideas are then used to describe how he uses rotation in the spine, where hips and shoulders turn in different directions to one another (CK), to spiral and corkscrew into the opponents structure.
I have also watched him explain a different type of spiral movement, ‘relaxing the spine and curving it in to receive and draw in what comes’ and then ‘straightening the spine to expand out and follow what goes’.[/B]
In fact , I disagree with the above idea. IMHO, in my understanding of the nature of spine. The above is trouble. This is due to trying to directly manipulate the spine instead of handling the spine as a whole.
As I mention in the previous post, spine is fragile, one handling force via the seven bows never the spine, spine is just the steeling or transmission. The direct contact is the wheels and shock absorb or the seven bows.
What inject to other structure is the force flow or Jin.
Not using one own transmission to corkscrew others structure which will damage or put the transmission in a big chance damaging condition . You want to break structure you inject Jin in. In the old saying as Gm yip man generation is called hammer the nail in accurately. Notice it is not about the hammer but the nail penetrate in accurately. That is efficient. That is why one needs to develop the Jin flow. One decides, how deep that injection needed , how long it drive. or how it spin or linear when it drive in. These are real deal. Thus it be able to break iron body conditioning or penetrate armor . Not a collision with ones own transmission to a wall.
Thus, the idea is to develop the seven bow, then from the seven bows comes the force change path and force change flow or Jin layer. Not crushing structure or spine directly, those are hard way. Soft way as Wck using Jin flow and jin path instead of direct crush. Thus, the older generation use the analogy of rattan, bow, nail…etc those are the description of force.
See, these is exactly the trouble which most of use doesn’t pay attention or aware of. While our mind think we know but in the reality we are off by thousand of miles.
Could you be a little more specific or perhaps offer up a video as to the topic of the ‘spine’ in 1850 era WC? I know you say there is danger in terms of injury but I think some of us are sensible enough to hear such knowledge. Perhaps a private youtube video if you do have grave safety concerns?
As above, the main attention must be in the seven bows , not the spine. The spine is transmission. then Develop the Jin path and Jin flow.
Proper handling of the spine is within the YKT four drills. Those drills cover different basic senerio of spine movement. As soon as one practice the drill in a loose, natural , and effortless , one will condition ones spine properly while the focus is in the seven bows. This is the direct way to handle the spine via motion, let the spine properly familiar with its operating range and different senerio . And be able to adapt to any senerio based on these four drill standard reference senerio if it might face later naturally accord to its development based on its condition, since everyone spine condition is different. Instead of using the mind trying to manipulate the spine ignoring the natural of the spine, individual spine condition, and directly driving any external structure.
See, there is no secret, but there are nature of things we need to follow. There are things can be directly handle, there are things has to deal with it indirect.
I avoid to talk about spine because If I don’t talk about it it will not be the focus of your testing.
That is the safest way. I propose the YKT four drills because the development is within there . It is better that the spine knows how it will response properly, then the mind think it knows how to handle the spine but clueless on the nature of the spine. As above, using the spine to corkscrew other structure. What if the other party super strong is iceman of mma, or you missed and there goes your spine into the point of no return.
People something get superstitious by watching the taiji people exegerate playing with waist and spine for demo shake for show business . That is the superstitious not internal art. thinking it is great ideas but turn out it is deadly mistake.
Spine must not be deal with direct. And one must know it first before one makes assumption one knows it.
YKT is important because it teaches and condition how to properly operate the spine for the Wck three sets based on proven Chinese mediation therapeutic drill which has been practiced with track records. As we know that will sure improve the three sets practice because most of use really don’t know our spine .
There is no way I could know such facts directly. For me it is always going to be second hand even if I were to speak the language and be able to research it for myself; Ip Man is dead, red boat opera practitioners are dead.
That is why we release the ancient documents.
Even if you don’t know the language you know it exist. And it is only a matter of time west will has people who investigate and translate it.
A document is still secondary data and requires a bit of faith to take it on face value. Is it a forgery? Has it been dated? Having a solid independently verified dating of this document is paramount, if you want to have others take you seriously.
That is why we look into common denominators, match it with official Chinese history, ancient Chinese martial art DNA. We compare with high tech to verify it.
Things doesn’t come up from the thin air.
But reality will not show in the eyes of skeptics .
[B]In the UK there are many well known Sifus who have a lot vested in maintaining the ‘authority’ of their lineage and ‘closeness’ to Ip Man on the wing chun family tree. There is, relatively, a lot of money at stake there for some. The following is an example but a realistic one I think.
For example you charge, say, £45-£50 a month for your students to train at your classes and you have, across a number of different schools and locations, 200 students. That’s somewhere between £9000-£10000 a month before costs are taken. However, we have yet to even add on additional incomes from private lessons (£35-£40 p/h), specific school training kit (£10-£25), weekend training camps (£45-£50), an online-tuition video service (£9 per month) or even £30-£40 charged per digital copy of a class photograph of a 100 or so students and instructors. You should expect no less than derision and ridicule from them under such circumstances, even if your argument is independently verified by qualified others.[/B]
There is always a different between preserve the art and making a living on it. If you watch the last movie of Ipman. In the movie, he says, art is not for sale.
Also, as you might have heard ,late Gm Ipman firm his sets before he passed away rekease to the public for free, instead of taking money which Bruce lee offer to buy him an apartment to film him.
That is the virtue of a great teacher and martial artists.
Lets not condem those who make a living with it because we are just human and need to make a living.
But, many in this world walk the path of late Gm Ipman , if that is what we want to follow.
Full sets of snt kuit and study release here in Chinese
Wck kuit says,
Loi lau hui song , lat sau jek choong.
Receive the in coming, send out the on going,
Release and thrust forward.
These are a description of the force handling characteristics of Wck.
It is not that difficult to understand. In the past, the older generation using the characteristics of rattan to describe it. Today , we can think of it as the chatacteristics of a coil spring.
The issue is how to develop this type of force handling ability? Or force change DNA?
That is where the snake body comes in. Call it snake, coil spring, rattan, willow,…etc those are just name. However, we do know it needs the emei snake slide worm move technology to realize this spring coil or snake body.
So, why is one must not lock or fix the yjkym as in iron wire of hung gar or dynamic tension or hold posture or rooting solid ? Because locking any of the seven bow or joint is lock up the spring, and there by no longer can implement the rattan characteristics. And there by will not have the characteristics as the Wck kuit describe. When the body is in the rattan and willow way, it moves with incoming force or wind, thus, you don’t see Ipman or Fung chun stand like southern fist or rooting. It is the way of willow, not the way of water tower.
Thus, the three DNA are actually support each others and supporting the kuit.
[B]Loi lau hui song , lat sau jek choong.
Receive the in coming, send out the on going,
Release and thrust forward.[/B]
But is this really unique to Wing Chun? Doesn’t Southern Mantis and Pak Mei do the same or similar?
These are a description of the force handling characteristics of Wck.
It is not that difficult to understand. In the past, the older generation using the characteristics of rattan to describe it. Today , we can think of it as the chatacteristics of a coil spring.
I like the analogy of a coiled spring. But using that analogy, I see the structure of Southern Mantis…weighted on the front leg, slightly leaning forward, shoulders rounded and chest sunk, elbows in…of being a much better example of a coiled spring than the more upright Wing Chun structure.
However, we do know it needs the emei snake slide worm move technology to realize this spring coil or snake body.
But what exactly is this “snake slide worm move technology”? Those words convey very little to me and evidently the majority of the people in this forum.
So, why is one must not lock or fix the yjkym as in iron wire of hung gar or dynamic tension or hold posture or rooting solid ? Because locking any of the seven bow or joint is lock up the spring, and there by no longer can implement the rattan characteristics. And there by will not have the characteristics as the Wck kuit describe. When the body is in the rattan and willow way, it moves with incoming force or wind, thus, you don’t see Ipman or Fung chun stand like southern fist or rooting. It is the way of willow, not the way of water tower.
If that’s true, then your analogy of a coiled spring breaks down and isn’t accurate. A spring works by storing energy as it is compressed along its central axis. So one end has to be anchored or “rooted” to support the spring as it is loaded. If the whole body, including the arms, spine, and legs are to act as parts of the spring that are coiled or compressed then the structure has to be angled into the incoming force…just as is done in the Southern Mantis Tonglong Ma, not the YGKYM. This is the Southern Fist notion of both “sink” and “swallow.” This is a version of “receive what comes.” When the spring releases, this is the Southern Fist notion of “float” and “spit.” This is a version of “sending out” as well as “release and thrust forward.”
[B]Loi lau hui song , lat sau jek choong.
Receive the in coming, send out the on going,
Release and thrust forward.[/B]
But is this really unique to Wing Chun? Doesn’t Southern Mantis and Pak Mei do the same or similar?-------
This saying is unique to Wck .
- Wck is a forward and backward movement art, with the strongest power generation between one own center line to the opponent center line. Backward define as in snt Wu sau, forward as in snt fok sau. No sideward movement as in spm.
2in Wck, receive or suck / swallow and sent out or spit happen in the same time per contact poin.
As explain in
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=siUvRN94ULA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsiUvRN94ULA
Start 10.30 using Wck snake body crane limbs unique bong as example.
Different then other southern fist.
These are a description of the force handling characteristics of Wck.
It is not that difficult to understand. In the past, the older generation using the characteristics of rattan to describe it. Today , we can think of it as the chatacteristics of a coil spring.
I like the analogy of a coiled spring. But using that analogy, I see the structure of Southern Mantis…weighted on the front leg, slightly leaning forward, shoulders rounded and chest sunk, elbows in…of being a much better example of a coiled spring than the more upright Wing Chun structure.---------
In Wck the seven joints or bow are similar to seven coil spring stack up from ground . All of these coil spring is in neutral state ready to response adaptively. That is what is called a soft art. .
Where southern mantis is a tension art where it has to hold a certain structure; while Wck is a combination of flexible coil spine in dynamic without need a structure but rely on Jin flow . Ie biu Jee set, it works beyond structure .
Spm is not a coil sprint but a wound up spring. That tight or wound up is the character of a hard style.
However, we do know it needs the emei snake slide worm move technology to realize this spring coil or snake body.
But what exactly is this “snake slide worm move technology”? Those words convey very little to me and evidently the majority of the people in this forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD1-iWjyr1E
The seven joints and other smaller joints are handle such as the snake spine sliding or worm moving. To develop the dynamic body joints, Jin path, and Jin flow.
Develop via loose , not the same as the spm tension type.
So, why is one must not lock or fix the yjkym as in iron wire of hung gar or dynamic tension or hold posture or rooting solid ? Because locking any of the seven bow or joint is lock up the spring, and there by no longer can implement the rattan characteristics. And there by will not have the characteristics as the Wck kuit describe. When the body is in the rattan and willow way, it moves with incoming force or wind, thus, you don’t see Ipman or Fung chun stand like southern fist or rooting. It is the way of willow, not the way of water tower.
If that’s true, then your analogy of a coiled spring breaks down and isn’t accurate.
A spring works by storing energy as it is compressed along its central axis. So one end has to be anchored or “rooted” to support the spring as it is loaded. ---------
http://www.scribd.com/doc/121501202/YIK-KAM-TRANSFORM
Coil spring as in page 18 diagram 25.
The other end of the coilmspring is not rooted but a reflection support.
Root means rooted like a tree. While the other end of coil spring do not root into the ground or grasp or hold the ground but just stay on the surface making use of action reaction force with spending energy trying to grap or hold on to the ground.
If the whole body, including the arms, spine, and legs are to act as parts of the spring that are coiled or compressed then the structure has to be angled into the incoming force…just as is done in the Southern Mantis Tonglong Ma, not the YGKYM. -----
Wck limbs and body structure of yjkym is like a stack of seven coil spring or the seven bows. Without any needs to wound up like in spm. All the seven bows can be used as an integration or divide into many small group.
This is the Southern Fist notion of both “sink” and “swallow.” This is a version of “receive what comes.” When the spring releases, this is the Southern Fist notion of “float” and “spit.” This is a version of “sending out” as well as "release and thrust forward.----------
As in the bong example YouTube above, Wck swallow and spit in the same instant via its seven coil spring or seven bows spontaneously at the contact point or sticking point, very different the southern mantis.
I hope wcner like Jim Rosellando who knows the different since he practice both art can explain this better .
Receive the in coming, send out the on going,
Release and thrust forward. Is like water flowing . Unless one develop it, one will not see the different.
This saying is unique to Wck .
As a saying, yes. But in application, I don’t think its so unique. Its just stated a bit differently in other southern systems.
1. Wck is a forward and backward movement art, with the strongest power generation between one own center line to the opponent center line. Backward define as in snt Wu sau, forward as in snt fok sau. No sideward movement as in spm.
SPM also has forward and backward movement and uses the centerline.
2in Wck, receive or suck / swallow and sent out or spit happen in the same time per contact poin.
suck/swallow is an inward/compressing/collapsing motion, float & spit are outward/expanding/discharging motions…like yin and yang. They cannot happen at the same time. They can follow each other very closely, but can’t physically happen at the same time. Both actions can certainly be applied at the same contact point in a very very short period of time. But again, this isn’t unique to Wing Chun. SPM does this as well.
In Wck the seven joints or bow are similar to seven coil spring stack up from ground . All of these coil spring is in neutral state ready to response adaptively. That is what is called a soft art. .
Again, I think your coiled spring analogy is breaking down. A spring can only be compressed along its central axis. If you “stack” springs, then they can only receive a load straight downward along their common central axis. A spring receives and sends force on a line parallel to its central axis. If the body is going to act as a spring, then it has to be angled into the oncoming load or force. SPM uses a stance structure that angles into an oncoming force. YGKYM does not. So using the analogy of a bow is probably more accurate for Wing Chun. A bow receives force by bending along its length with the fulcrum at the center. So a bow can be perfectly vertical and receive and send force out in front or perpendicular to its long axis. This makes sense for the spine, with its vertical alignment. From the YGKYM, the spine receives and sends force by bending, not by compressing. But this doesn’t make much sense for the limbs. The arms and legs don’t bend or “bow” along their length, the compress because the joints allow them to “fold.” Maybe a combined analogy is better? The spine acts as bow while the arms and legs act as springs?
Where southern mantis is a tension art where it has to hold a certain structure; while Wck is a combination of flexible coil spine in dynamic without need a structure but rely on Jin flow . Ie biu Jee set, it works beyond structure .
So you are saying Wing Chun does not need a solid structure? 
I think Robert Chu would disagree with you here!!!
I will admit that I have not taken the time to watch your video explanations, and I should. But I did watch this particular video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g77i-pznhtA
What I see here is a YGKYM that is held very high with very little bending of the knees or sinking of the weight. You seem to be wavering forward and backward rather than being solidly “rooted.” There is no way that YGKYM would stand up to Robert Chu’s structure test. You look like a strong wind would blow you over backwards in that video. Maybe you had a specific purpose in mind for doing it that way? But that’s not the Wing Chun I want to practice!
Develop via loose , not the same as the spm tension type.
SPM does use tension, but that’s not to imply that all SPM is like hard karate. There is plenty of “looseness” and relaxation as well. The KwangSi Jook Lum guys would all likely take offense to most of your characterizations! 
I hope wcner like Jim Rosellando who knows the different since he practice both art can explain this better .
Yeah, me too! I’ve started studying SPM and I don’t agree with a lot of what you are saying about it. I see a lot of similarities in SPM and Wing Chun as done by someone like Robert Chu or Wong Shun Leung. What I see you doing is a Wing Chun with the weight carried high and unrooted with little structural strength. Your SLT looked more like Tai Chi than most Wing Chun I have seen and experienced. I find it hard to believe that this was the Wing Chun of our ancestors that used it to fight the Manchus!
Receive the in coming, send out the on going,
Release and thrust forward. Is like water flowing . Unless one develop it, one will not see the different.
Maybe that’s true. Some things are better felt than seen. But wouldn’t this also apply to your comments about SPM?
1. Wck is a forward and backward movement art, with the strongest power generation between one own center line to the opponent center line. Backward define as in snt Wu sau, forward as in snt fok sau. No sideward movement as in spm.
SPM also has forward and backward movement and uses the center line ---------
Notice how it is second nature for spm to block side way. As in the following clip. Wing chun technics such as tan sau don’t do this type of sideward , wing chun second nature is push forward in center line, but not block sideward from center line. That make Wck power generation very different , that is why Wck develop with snt type .
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=PAiAnMFtCxU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPAiAnMFtCxU
2in Wck, receive or suck / swallow and sent out or spit happen in the same time per contact poin.
suck/swallow is an inward/compressing/collapsing motion, float & spit are outward/expanding/discharging motions…like yin and yang. They cannot happen at the same time.
They can follow each other very closely, but can’t physically happen at the same time. Both actions can certainly be applied at the same contact point in a very very short period of time. But again, this isn’t unique to Wing Chun. SPM does this as well. -------
As in a coil spring, action and reaction force happen in the same time.
Yin and yang has to happen in the same time with different weight. But never pure yin and pure yang. Take a look at the following symbol. The white or yang and black or yin, yin or yang works that way.
Suck and spit in Wck happen in the sometime, as shown in bong sau. That is Lin sil Dai da, cancel and strike in the same instance. As in my bong sau demo in the above clip.
Not the same with the following clip where one always block side out . As in this following clip
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_v6KhL1yKrk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_v6KhL1yKrk
Wck bong does redirect the incoming and attacking or pressing the center line in the same instance.
In Wck the seven joints or bow are similar to seven coil spring stack up from ground . All of these coil spring is in neutral state ready to response adaptively. That is what is called a soft art. .
Again, I think your coiled spring analogy is breaking down. A spring can only be compressed along its central axis. If you “stack” springs, then they can only receive a load straight downward along their common central axis. A spring receives and sends force on a line parallel to its central axis. If the body is going to act as a spring, then it has to be angled into the oncoming load or force. ------
If you develop it you will see . Otherwise it is very difficult to imagine.
SPM uses a stance structure that angles into an oncoming force. YGKYM does not. So using the analogy of a bow is probably more accurate for Wing Chun. A bow receives force by bending along its length with the fulcrum at the center. So a bow can be perfectly vertical and receive and send force out in front or perpendicular to its long axis. --------
Analogy is just analogy, call it bow or rattan or coil spring, all is saying it is using the action and reaction force without rigid holding.
wck is a force low art. Instead of structure based art as spm. Ie. bil Jee set. The ultimate of Wck shows that.
This makes sense for the spine, with its vertical alignment. From the YGKYM, the spine receives and sends force by bending, not by compressing.
.But this doesn’t make much sense for the limbs. The arms and legs don’t bend or “bow” along their length, the compress because the joints allow them to “fold.” Maybe a combined analogy is better? The spine acts as bow while the arms and legs act as springs? ------------
In ygkym, spine never take any force. Spine is fragile. As I have explain in the previous post above on the seven bows .
From your post, it shows me you are using the spm way as a standard norm. That is a very different compare with wing chun way or Wck engine.
Where southern mantis is a tension art where it has to hold a certain structure; while Wck is a combination of flexible coil spine in dynamic without need a structure but rely on Jin flow . Ie biu Jee set, it works beyond structure .
So you are saying Wing Chun does not need a solid structure? I think Robert Chu would disagree with you here!!! ----------
If Wck rely on the solid structure then Wck biu Jee set will not exist.
Biu Jee set shows paradigm of Wck without need a structure.
Robert agrees with me,
most people only learn his structure level article but not the dynamic momentum or force flow level.
I have continuous to bug him to write article on that for past three years.
I will admit that I have not taken the time to watch your video explanations, and I should. But I did watch this particular video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g77i-pznhtA
What I see here is a YGKYM that is held very high with very little bending of the knees or sinking of the weight. You seem to be wavering forward and backward rather than being solidly “rooted.” -----------
The idea is the body is in a neutra coil spring position where no one joints are hold. Be able to distribute the force balancely to the seven bows or joints.
The body is waving because the body is supposed to wave while it is in deep breathing where the joints and spine moving according to its state. Not locking or holding into any position. The body motion is in a state of coherence, in up down, left right , in out. Six directions.
That is the willow way as many as called it. Sifu Robert Chu called it let the body run by itself naturally.
There is no way that YGKYM would stand up to Robert Chu’s structure test. You look like a strong wind would blow you over backwards in that video. Maybe you had a specific purpose in mind for doing it that way? But that’s not the Wing Chun I want to practice! ------------
That is an assumption most people will made based on they are used to seeing a holding structure, instead of force path and force flow play , as explain in the following YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkvhj06Fw4&feature=youtube_gdata -
Develop via loose , not the same as the spm tension type.
SPM does use tension, but that’s not to imply that all SPM is like hard karate. There is plenty of “looseness” and relaxation as well. The KwangSi Jook Lum guys would all likely take offense to most of your characterizations! -----------
The characterization is a tcma characterization, I just relay it. No offense nothing good or bad but a very different technology.
I hope wcner like Jim Rosellando who knows the different since he practice both art can explain this better .
Yeah, me too! I’ve started studying SPM and I don’t agree with a lot of what you are saying about it. I see a lot of similarities in SPM and Wing Chun as done by someone like Robert Chu or Wong Shun Leung. ------
If you know Robert as I do and chatting Wck every week , you will know Robert is not as what you think he is.
What I see you doing is a Wing Chun with the weight carried high and unrooted with little structural strength. Your SLT looked more like Tai Chi than most Wing Chun I have seen and experienced. I find it hard to believe that this was the Wing Chun of our ancestors that used it to fight the Manchus! --------
The way of willow is not the way of water tower. Thus, if one use the way of water tower will not be able to see the way of willow.
The snt is practice according to the teaching of the kuen kuit of yik kam and snake crane Wck of the red boat era.
Mind enter into coherence,
body enter into neutral where up down , left right, inside out side coherence, where all bows are non hold.
Force path and force flow is set up and activate.
Momentum is in resonance.
It is not Taichi because Wck doesn’t move the hip like taiji. It is not taiji because Wck DNA is playing in center line within the triangle.
However, taiji or Wck, in order to play with force flow the body needs to be loose and light. Other wise it is not effective to implement flow. Wck is called female art since ancient. One doesn’t expect female to root like man.
Receive the in coming, send out the on going,
Release and thrust forward. Is like water flowing . Unless one develop it, one will not see the different.
Maybe that’s true. Some things are better felt than seen. But wouldn’t this also apply to your comments about SPM? --------
It is a norm in tcma, if one develop the soft art then one can read the hard art . But not the other way around.
I would highly recommend if Jim rosalando will share his view since he knows both art with direct experience and has certain level of developement.
Notice. I am just describing and presenting the DIFFERENCE technically , nothing to do with who is better or good or bad.
For those who is interested in the wing Chu ygkym ,
Wayne and myself has present an article months ago in Hong Kong new martial hero magazine on the study of red boat era ygkym with some details. Presenting, what, why, how, where it is come from.
The article is in Chinese only but not translate due to the evolve of the details and references. It is an article presented for the senior or elderly tcma sifu in Hong Kong, china, and Taiwan. To report the finding.
http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/scwc-the-yejeekimyeungcoreplatformoftheredboatwingchunerascwcykwaa
This will be one of the important article needs to be translate to the west .
Another article is the following snake body crane lims DNA article. Also in Chinese only due to its details in Classical Chinese.
Many has look into these articles,
ie :Currently, Gm Lee kong the white crane of fujian and southern Chinese martial art expert, who is recognize by tcma community and Chinese gorvenment, is studying these article, and has agree on the snake body crane limbs DNA fit signature of Wck. And also the finding explain the purpose of snt set.
Sifu Robert chu also are working on the translation and commentary of the snt kuit from yik kam and scwc.
These are non profit historical project involve a group of people to report what is happening in the past as best as possible.
And of corse we don’t know it all, I don’t know it all, but some body has to start these dirty job which digging and presenting the finding to the world. Within next five years, with all the digging, lots will sure come out and a much better picture will show.
To answer those who asked me why I don’t root and do waving . The following picture will answer your question. There is a part of jin path under the physical body or willow . Which can be linear or spiral as I called it the double helix. Double helix is usual in ck and bj set. But slt has it too in the bong section.
So, why don’t I lock my stance , knees, hip…etc as spm? Because I rely on dynamic force flow, instead of fix holding structure which will block my force flow.
That is why in yik kam transform, I show you how to adjust the knees so that the whole body is light weight…etc. YKT develop prerequisite for these type of things which is in the Wck three sets.
Notice. I just say different way of power generation above, in this case I am using force line type. Nothing say about superior, good, bad, best fighter…etc.
Snt is using this type thus it is not San chun stance or other stance, but the natural parallel stance.
Combine the above and this picture you will see more.
Notice how it is second nature for spm to block side way. As in the following clip. Wing chun technics such as tan sau don’t do this type of sideward , wing chun second nature is push forward in center line, but not block sideward from center line. That make Wck power generation very different , that is why Wck develop with snt type .
Ok. But SPM does both. It also has plenty of techniques that push forward into the centerline.
As in a coil spring, action and reaction force happen in the same time.
Uhh. No. A spring cannot compress and store energy at the same time it expands and releases energy. They are opposite actions. One is “swallow”, the other is “spit.” They don’t happen at exactly the same time.
Suck and spit in Wck happen in the sometime, as shown in bong sau. That is Lin sil Dai da, cancel and strike in the same instance. As in my bong sau demo in the above clip.
I think it depends on how you use the Bong Sau. To me, the SPM idea of “swallow” means you are bringing something in and either nullifying its momentum or gaining direct control of its motion. Like a Lop Sau. Bong can do this as well. But “spit” means you are sending out force in a short sharp impulse. Lop Sau cannot do this. Bong Sau can do this if you are moving into the opponent and essentially using the Bong like an elbow strike. However, I do not see Bong Sau doing both at the same time! How can Bong “suck” something in and send out force at the same time? It can deflect as it sends out force, but this is not exactly the same thing as the idea of “swallow” and “spit” happening simultaneously.
all is saying it is using the action and reaction force without rigid holding.
wck is a force low art. Instead of structure based art as spm. Ie. bil Jee set. The ultimate of Wck shows that.
Ok Hendrik. I’m trying to stay with you. I’ve never heard Wing Chun described that way. In the 3 lineages I’ve worked from a good rooted structure was always emphasized. So this is a very different way of looking at it!
In ygkym, spine never take any force. Spine is fragile. As I have explain in the previous post above on the seven bows .
But it does transmit it down to the legs and floor? Wouldn’t this require some level of “rooting”?
From your post, it shows me you are using the spm way as a standard norm. That is a very different compare with wing chun way or Wck engine.
You are probably right! But as you noted, I think I would described as a “TCMA” way and not specifically an “SPM” way. And I don’t think I’m alone. All the Wing Chun I have experienced tries to establish a good structure and good root.
Robert agrees with me, most people only learn his structure level article but not the dynamic momentum or force flow level. I have continuous to bug him to write article on that for past three years.
I have not seen Robert or his students use a YGKYM with the center high, no rooting or sinking, the stance very narrow and the body slightly “swaying” in the breeze! Does Robert agree with your YGKYM in that video? Why would Robert have gone on something of a “campaign” some years ago to get Wing Chun people to examine their ability to root and use their structure if he agrees that what you showed in that video is “Ok”? Because from what I understood back then, he was trying to get WC’ers NOT to do that!
Here is some footage of an SPM guy with good root and structure moving his opponent’s around pretty easily in a Chi Sau competition. Is hard to tell, but I think a least a couple of his opponent’s were WC’ers. He shows good use of “swallow” and “spit” and redirects incoming force well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWoY0Gui0R8&list=UUOznAd87m8szh8epGRhGBtA
The body is waving because the body is supposed to wave while it is in deep breathing where the joints and spine moving according to its state. Not locking or holding into any position. The body motion is in a state of coherence, in up down, left right , in out. Six directions.
Ok, but why no root?! Even a willow tree has deep strong roots! How can you receive force and redirect it if it picks you up off of your feet and tosses you aside?
[B]That is an assumption most people will made based on they are used to seeing a holding structure, instead of force path and force flow play , as explain in the following YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkvhj06Fw4&feature=youtube_gdata[/B] -
I did actually watch this one! I promise! SPM also talks about Lik and Ging. SPM also talks about handling force in a “receiving” fashion and a “sending” fashion as in #3 & 4 of your categorization. And why would the use of #3 & 4 preclude or exclude the use of #1 & 2? Shouldn’t we be good at using all 4 categories?
If you know Robert as I do and chatting Wck every week , you will know Robert is not as what you think he is.
So Robert has stopped emphasizing a solid rooted structure and teaching his structure tests?
However, taiji or Wck, in order to play with force flow the body needs to be loose and light. Other wise it is not effective to implement flow. Wck is called female art since ancient. One doesn’t expect female to root like man.
Why does being rooted exclude being loose and light? And exactly how does a female root?
Notice. I am just describing and presenting the DIFFERENCE technically , nothing to do with who is better or good or bad.
Understood. And I will admit that what you are describing is a very different approach to Wing Chun. One that I am not familiar with and have not seen or felt. Whether it is an improvement on Wing Chun as most people seem to be doing it remains to be seen and proven. I appreciate the fact that you have put so many videos out discussing your ideas. But I and a lot of the others here would really like to see more two-person demonstrations actually showing what you mean and illustrating the results. Otherwise you aren’t going to convince very many people that “rooting like a woman” (which really seems to mean having no root), waving the body around like a willow and doing the techniques in SLT like they were Tai Chi movements is something they should be doing!
And just to clarify: I have understood you as saying that red boat era Wing Chun and its descendants:
- are a low-force art
- not structure based and does not use tension to hold any kind of structure
- a female art
- does not block sideways off the centerline
- spine never takes any force
- receives and sends force at the exact same time
- has the feet parallel rather than “pigeon-toed”
Here are some of my opinions.
Ok. But SPM does both. It also has plenty of techniques that push forward into the centerline. -------
Wck does No side way .
Thus , wck is using its unique strategy, momentum, and force handling.
As in a coil spring, action and reaction force happen in the same time.
Uhh. No. A spring cannot compress and store energy at the same time it expands and releases energy. They are opposite actions. One is “swallow”, the other is “spit.” They don’t happen at exactly the same time. ----------
In a coil sprint action and reaction happen in the same time, when you press a spring, action force, the coil spring push back at you, reaction force.
Suck and spit in Wck happen in the sometime, as shown in bong sau. That is Lin sil Dai da, cancel and strike in the same instance. As in my bong sau demo in the above clip.
I think it depends on how you use the Bong Sau. ------
As fok sau which always has forward pressure. bong is also called as bik bong. Bik means pressure. Bong without the forward pressue to the opponent center line is not a bik bong. These are Wck uniqueness .
To me, the SPM idea of “swallow” means you are bringing something in and either nullifying its momentum or gaining direct control of its motion. Like a Lop Sau. ------
Wck idea is center line capture/strike/control and nulify has to happen at the same instance otherwise is one step late..
Different strategy
Bong Sau can do this if you are moving into the opponent and essentially using the Bong like an elbow strike. However, I do not see Bong Sau doing both at the same time! ------
Bong sau is not an elbow strike but a deflect and issue forward pressure in the same instance.
Old timer did those new evolution might do diffent.
How can Bong “suck” something in and send out force at the same time? It can deflect as it sends out force, but this is not exactly the same thing as the idea of “swallow” and “spit” happening simultaneously. ------
The defect means defect the incoming to side and allowing it continuous go forward. That has no different with swallow. It is swallow to the side.
The bong example will be the opponent got redirect and continuous and in the same time a forward pressure send to his center line. That is spit.
all is saying it is using the action and reaction force without rigid holding.
wck is a force low art. Instead of structure based art as spm. Ie. bil Jee set. The ultimate of Wck shows that.
Ok Hendrik. I’m trying to stay with you. I’ve never heard Wing Chun described that way. In the 3 lineages I’ve worked from a good rooted structure was always emphasized. So this is a very different way of looking at it! ---------
IMHO ,
This is why in the past , it is say biu Jee set not getting out of the room. Unless one get the force flow, one cannot make biu Jee function effectively.
biu Jee rely on structure is trouble. Because it is not suppose to rely on structure but the inch Jin or force flow.
Biu Jee set is for the third momentum of Wck, the recovery momentum. To recover means one has already lost the center and structure. Those no longer in ones possession already, one needs to recover in that situation.
In ygkym, spine never take any force. Spine is fragile. As I have explain in the previous post above on the seven bows .
But it does transmit it down to the legs and floor? Wouldn’t this require some level of “rooting”?
IMHO, it is more a force pair balancing on the run, then rooting as in the southern fist .
From your post, it shows me you are using the spm way as a standard norm. That is a very different compare with wing chun way or Wck engine.
You are probably right! But as you noted, I think I would described as a “TCMA” way and not specifically an “SPM” way. And I don’t think I’m alone. All the Wing Chun I have experienced tries to establish a good structure and good root. -------
In fact,
What you describe is in general southern fist with spm taste.
Wck evolve into different directions.
Robert agrees with me, most people only learn his structure level article but not the dynamic momentum or force flow level. I have continuous to bug him to write article on that for past three years.
I have not seen Robert or his students use a YGKYM with the center high, no rooting or sinking, the stance very narrow and the body slightly “swaying” in the breeze! Does Robert agree with your YGKYM in that video? ------
In Robert told those who asked me the same question in a forum months ago , that is the state of the body move by itself.
Why would Robert have gone on something of a “campaign” some years ago to get Wing Chun people to examine their ability to root and use their structure if he agrees that what you showed in that video is “Ok”? -----
Because what he shared decade ago is the basic of using body integration , some wcner at that time is using only arm but no body integration,
and what I show is a step beyond the body structure , time to get into Jin flow and momentum. Where body integration and structure need to turn into dynamic flow.
To be able to flow, one needs dynamic . To learn dynamic one needs to make the structure alive. And no longer hold on to structure.
In Wck, first there is structure as in basic, second step is ck level which learning the moving structure. Then, bj level where one advance into flow.
however, one must go through structure to flow. Otherwise one cannot get to flow.
Because from what I understood back then, he was trying to get WC’ers NOT to do that! --------
There is a different between scatter all over the place and coherence in the six core elements : body, mind, breathing, Qi, force flow, and momentum.
In this case, what I show, (note :no claim here that I am superior) is a resonance or coherence of the above six elements . The body is waving a syncronize to the deep lower abs breathing, the weight transfer, the force flow up and down from and to ground, the physiology is in coherence. It is clock with rhythm .
So it is a resonance, not a scattering move . That is the implement of natural flow in the set solo practice. Or as it says, let go and let it be.
[B]Here is some footage of an SPM guy with good root and structure moving his opponent’s around pretty easily in a Chi Sau competition. Is hard to tell, but I think a least a couple of his opponent’s were WC’ers. He shows good use of “swallow” and “spit” and redirects incoming force well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWoY0Gui0R8&list=UUOznAd87m8szh8epGRhGBtA[/B]
Thanks!
Very typical southern fist type of swallow and spit.
body is waving because the body is supposed to wave while it is in deep breathing where the joints and spine moving according to its state. Not locking or holding into any position. The body motion is in a state of coherence, in up down, left right , in out. Six directions. [/B]
Ok, but why no root?! Even a willow tree has deep strong roots! How can you receive force and redirect it if it picks you up off of your feet and tosses you aside? -------
I have shown the force flow diagram on the previous posts. It is a force flow play not a rooting play as in general southern fist.
If he is big and strong stick at him like a Willow to strong wind. If you root strong as usual southern fist, he is still pick you up as strong wind uproot trees. Tree doesn’t have the sticking option due to its rooting.
[B]That is an assumption most people will made based on they are used to seeing a holding structure, instead of force path and force flow play , as explain in the following YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkvhj06Fw4&feature=youtube_gdata[/B] -
I did actually watch this one! I promise! SPM also talks about Lik and Ging. SPM also talks about handling force in a “receiving” fashion and a “sending” fashion as in #3 & 4 of your categorization. And why would the use of #3 & 4 preclude or exclude the use of #1 & 2? Shouldn’t we be good at using all 4 categories? --------
The YouTube says four basic force operation.
The key in this YouTube is can we operate in all four operation.
People talk about Lik and ging. But different people define it differently.
In this clip, here Jin is define and force path nd force flow were present. These are tools. 1 and 2 are not efficient compare with 3 and 4. 3 and 4 needs development to get it.
If you know Robert as I do and chatting Wck every week , you will know Robert is not as what you think he is.
So Robert has stopped emphasizing a solid rooted structure and teaching his structure tests?
Robert always is a dynamic momentum person.
The Robert you see is when he teaches beginners to have a good solid foundation. Wck bottom line is capture the center via dynamic momentum play.
However, taiji or Wck, in order to play with force flow the body needs to be loose and light. Other wise it is not effective to implement flow. Wck is called female art since ancient. One doesn’t expect female to root like man.
Why does being rooted exclude being loose and light? And exactly how does a female root?
Rooting as most think or in souhtern fist is not force balancing but holding and sustaining.
Force path and force flow play needs a loose and light body. As in taiji , it says, it is so light that it will not hold an extra weight of a feather. It is a different paradigm .
Notice. I am just describing and presenting the DIFFERENCE technically , nothing to do with who is better or good or bad.
Understood. And I will admit that what you are describing is a very different approach to Wing Chun. One that I am not familiar with and have not seen or felt. Whether it is an improvement on Wing Chun as most people seem to be doing it remains to be seen and proven. I appreciate the fact that you have put so many videos out discussing your ideas. But I and a lot of the others here would really like to see more two-person demonstrations actually showing what you mean and illustrating the results. Otherwise you aren’t going to convince very many people that “rooting like a woman” (which really seems to mean having no root), waving the body around like a willow and doing the techniques in SLT like they were Tai Chi movements is something they should be doing! ---------
Sure. Things will happen step by step.
We know today that when the three set system created in 1855. Wck go through a quick fighter training cultural change. We know the post 1855 cut away lots of chinese body of the art develoment and focus into get some one to the battle field quick culture . now 160 years later it has its pro and con.
We now try to present both the pre and post , but things will not happen over night. And some will see it different then their Wck because Wck does evolve. And 160 years is a long time .
And just to clarify: I have understood you as saying that red boat era Wing Chun and its descendants:
- are a low-force art ----------
It is high effective and efficient force handling art. High impulse and sensing and very adaptive art.
- not structure based and does not use tension to hold any kind of structure -----
Structure is for begin. When it get into dynamic, it goes further into dynamic momentum and force flow play level.
A force flow play make use of structure adaptively and instantaneously . Holding on to something without purpose is the root of force flow stagnation .
Chi sau is for experimenting sensing, force flow, force path, momentum handling.
- a female art -----
Just mean not fighting force with force structure with structure. To compete who is stronger.
- does not block sideways off the centerline ------
That is the uniqueness of Wck. Wck rather turn then block side way. Wck sets are design to have most effective and efficient power generation close to the center line.
The general rule of training the sets are
Which means one operate ones technics within the triangle area in front of one. With the two shoulder as two point and the two strect out hands meet in front the center line as the third point. These three point define the triangle.
Out of the triangle means no power zone.
- spine never takes any force ----
Using spine to takes force cause spine to be the target. One inject of force vector into it will damage it. Accident will damage it.
- receives and sends force at the exact same time -----
Receive and then send is always one step slower in reality. By the time one send, the opponent has changed.
- has the feet parallel rather than “pigeon-toed”. ------
The joints has to be in an unlock, neutral position to be able to adapt to different angle to support force flow.
Bottom line it is force flow and momentum matter.