Three level of Wck understanding

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Similar to knowing noodle, there are three level of Wck understanding.

Noodle, can be Chinese noodle, Japanese noodle , Italian noodle, Korean noodle.

The first level is
Looking at the photo of these and ague the heck out of what it is or what one think it is. In fact never taste anyone them or just taste one of them. The rest in speculations.

Ei. Taiji is the same with emei. White crane is the same with wing chun…etc.

The second level is
Tasted all of them and know what are them and thier differences.

Ei. Have develop skill both in taiji and emei white crane and wing chun to know they are infact different.

The third level is the cook level who knows how to cook them all and knowing the exact details.

Ei. Have develop advance skill knowing the DNA of the art and be able to describe the differences of each individual art according to the arts seven bows and six core elements signatures.

It is just this simple, but if one stuck in level one and keep wanting to argue as level three, it will be very frustrated. One simply cannot see beyond ones attainment level. But many don’t even know these three level exist. But thinking everything is the same, looking at photos will know everything.

Similar to the cook who can cook different noodle , unless one is there . Pretending or arguing is just a waste of the time. At the end of the day, when the world got educated to the cook level. What is the facts is clear.

2

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266711]Similar to knowing noodle, there are three level of Wck understanding.

Noodle, can be Chinese noodle, Japanese noodle , Italian noodle, Korean noodle.

The first level is
Looking at the photo of these and ague the heck out of what it is or what one think it is. In fact never taste anyone them or just taste one of them. The rest in speculations.

Ei. Taiji is the same with emei. White crane is the same with wing chun…etc.

The second level is
Tasted all of them and know what are them and thier differences.

Ei. Have develop skill both in taiji and emei white crane and wing chun to know they are infact different.

The third level is the cook level who knows how to cook them all and knowing the exact details.

Ei. Have develop advance skill knowing the DNA of the art and be able to describe the differences of each individual art according to the arts seven bows and six core elements signatures.

It is just this simple, but if one stuck in level one and keep wanting to argue as level three, it will be very frustrated. One simply cannot see beyond ones attainment level. But many don’t even know these three level exist. But thinking everything is the same, looking at photos will know everything.

Similar to the cook who can cook different noodle , unless one is there . Pretending or arguing is just a waste of the time. At the end of the day, when the world got educated to the cook level. What is the facts is clear.[/QUOTE]

All the drills and concepts presented in this video are also found in Bei Xizang Lama Bai He Pai, Yang Shi Taijiquan, Wu Shi Taijiquan, Fuzhou Bai He Quan, Fujian Bai He Quan. Many are also to be found in Wuzu Quan and some branches of Karate like Uechi Ryu and To’on Ryu. These arts even practice some form of “Sticking Hand” exercises. So you have to ask yourself. What is more likely? That these concepts were already present in Crane style or that they were all influenced by “Ermei Snake Technology”? Aside from the Taijiquan all of those other arts I mention share a common ancestry and are all primarily based on Crane concepts. They may have been infused with other methods, but each claims White Crane as it’s base. If Sergio is representative of “Ermei Snake Engine” in motion how to do refute my point of argument. I fail to see your logic. How can you dismiss the obvious?

When I wrote this I did so at what you so eloquently labeled as “Cook Level” understanding. I have several years of experience in numerous methods of White Crane based martial arts and Qigong, both Okinawan and Chinese. I made my assessment based upon my own experience and knowledge. I cannot in all honesty say that I know the inner workings of Ermei Shier Zhuang as I’ve never studied it, but I see nothing that is vastly different than any other system of “Qigong” that I have experience in.

Logical Points of Argument

  1. You have to understand that YKWC may very well contain this “Snake Engine” material, but YKWC is not the standard by which all other branches of WC are compared.

  2. My WC comes from a completely different line and is not subject to Ermei Shier Zhuang analysis. Even if we trace our lineages back to before 1848 there is no overlap in our ancestry.

  3. Our systems are actually very different in approach from what I’ve seen of forms and application of Cho Family style. There is some crossover as far as theoretical composition, but only enough to suggest that we are very distant cousins.

  4. This is because Cho Family has Cailifo influence and this is hard to look past even with documentation from a long time ago. Cailifo has undoubtedly altered the expression of the system. If it was not a part of the system only the Xiao Lian Tou form would exist. The ancestors of Cho Family obviously thought that they were lacking in material and added to the sysytem, to me this suggests that not all the answers could be found within the Xiao Lian Tou form that they possessed.

  5. You may very well be correct that Ermei Shier Zhuang influenced YKWC, it may very well be your “Engine”. This does not mean that it is the “Engine” for all WC branches. The histories and traditions of my lineage clearly state that White Crane is the well from which our WC came and I find that for my branch that the White Crane Gong is most compatible and works best.

  6. Many branches have differnt origin stories. Some claim Crane & Fox, Crane & Monkey, Two Cranes or Crane & Snake. There is a common denominator here…that is Crane. There is a reason why Crane is considered the Mother Art of WC.

Do you now see my perspective?

Can you accurately and logically dispute my points of argument againt Ermei Shier Zhuang as the “Engine” of all WC branches?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying it won’t work, but can you in all honesty, say that it IS the “Engine” or simply an engine that fits onto the frame?

You had mentioned that WC is “Short Range” and that arts like Boxing and Cailifo are “Long Range” and used this analogy as difinative proof that Ermei Shier Zhuang is the “Engine” because it works on the same dynamics. So how is the Cailifo within Cho Family YKWC compatible with “Snake Engine” if the dynamics are so very different and not compatible?

Just trying to understand your logic, please help me to understand.

3

I cannot in all honesty say that I know the inner workings of Ermei Shier Zhuang as I’ve never studied it, but I see nothing that is vastly different than any other system of “Qigong” that I have experience in.

There are nine level in emei 12 zhuang and ancient internal development, how many level have you attain to put yourself in a cook position?

Cho family yik kam siu Lin tau clearly record four level out of nine.
Unless one is there atleast at level three, how can now know what is going on?

I am not trying to put anyone down. I just think most of us are just naive to think we know what we have no idea , me included.

The logic is simply Describe which level one attain otherwise it is day dream, looking at photo and thinking one is a cook

I am not trying to convince anyone here. I just describe what is a reality. You don’t need to take my words

4

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266740] There are nine level in emei 12 zhuang and ancient internal development, how many level have you attain to put yourself in a cook position?[/QUOTE]

Read my post again I wasn’t referring to having experience in Emei Shier Zhuang, but other methods of Qigong. Are you implying that I don’t have understanding of Qigong simply because I don’t study Emei Qigong? Qigong is pretty much the same theory wise, whether it be Nei Gong or Wai Gong. Movement and philosophy wise it’s another story. Unless it can make you fly it isn’t anything unique and nothing I haven’t already been exposed to.

Cho family yik kam siu Lin tau clearly record four level out of nine. Unless one is there atleast at level three, how can now know what is going on?

From my understanding, Fu Wei Zhong stated that only a few of the 12 have been taught to the public to date. How did Cho Family get four? Why only four, seems incomplete to me. I don’t see anything uniquely different happening with those movements in Emei Shier Zhuang as compared to the same movements in Zhineng Qigong, Bai He Xiao Yue Gong or Taijiquan.

Can you tell me what theory Emei Shier Zhuang is based on? Wu Xing, Bagua etc. How does it’s body structure compare to WC body structure? Does it apply physically or metaphysically?

Now that you cherry picked my post, would you care to address the issues I pointed out and answer all my questions?

5

Read my post again I wasn’t referring to having experience in Emei Shier Zhuang, but other methods of Qigong. Are you implying that I don’t have understanding of Qigong simply because I don’t study Emei Qigong? Qigong is pretty much the same theory wise, whether it be Nei Gong or Wai Gong. Movement and philosophy wise it’s another story. Unless it can make you fly it isn’t anything unique and nothing I haven’t already been exposed to.

Disregards of which style, Ancient Chinese internal art has nine level.

Not a theory but attainment. One enter into different states.

Unless one attain the level one simply doesn’t know what it is.

I also have to learn my lesson in the hard way.

From my understanding, Fu Wei Zhong stated that only a few of the 12 have been taught to the public to date. How did Cho Family get four? Why only four, seems incomplete to me. I don’t see anything uniquely different happening with those movements in Emei Shier Zhuang as compared to the same movements in Zhineng Qigong, Bai He Xiao Yue Gong or Taijiquan.

The person who created SLT of what yik kam practice in 1848 clearly shown four level .

Again, unless one attain it one doesn’t know.

Can you tell me what theory Emei Shier Zhuang is based on? Wu Xing, Bagua etc. How does it’s body structure compare to WC body structure? Does it apply physically or metaphysically?

See the attach emei 12 zhuang platform .

Now that you cherry picked my post, would you care to address the issues I pointed out and answer all my questions?

I don’t cherry pick at your post, in fact I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, when I say

Toto this is not Kansas City anymore

6

This is emei 12 zhuang platform it is not the so called qigong the modern people says , it is beyond what people think.

It is a path way a process based on Chinese daoist process to enter Buddhism samadhi . There are nine level of the development.

At level six one turn into “light”. Yes, mind and body fuse and one get into a state of silence.

The so called Qi and the advance micro obit practice which one out of thousand get there but lots of talk are just beginning level stuffs.

In yk slt kuit. It is just the fifth kuit .

Y5
Union in the Dan tian , Du medirian sink.

So, Toto, we are not in Kansas anymore.

Unless one know where one stand , one really don’t know where one is.

Words doesn’t count , can one enter into the level at will? If not one simple don’t know

image.jpg
image.jpg1198×823 80.9 KB

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SLT is very deep.

Simple , sophisticated , but elegance. It is beyond what 99% of people think. For the past 100 years only a hand full see its beauty.

Do I try to promote my lineage or myself?

Nope. I just trying to tell the world, go back to 1848 version and claim your Wck inheritance. Once one enter the door one never turn back

Now we bring this ancient technology to MIT. Where high tech belongs to
http://mitqigong.blogspot.com

8

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266743]Read my post again I wasn’t referring to having experience in Emei Shier Zhuang, but other methods of Qigong. Are you implying that I don’t have understanding of Qigong simply because I don’t study Emei Qigong? Qigong is pretty much the same theory wise, whether it be Nei Gong or Wai Gong. Movement and philosophy wise it’s another story. Unless it can make you fly it isn’t anything unique and nothing I haven’t already been exposed to.

Disregards of which style, Ancient Chinese internal art has nine level.

Not a theory but attainment. One enter into different states.

Unless one attain the level one simply doesn’t know what it is.

I also have to learn my lesson in the hard way.[/QUOTE]

As I stated movement & philosophy wise it’s another story. So it’s “Spiritual Qigong”. How does one suggest that “Spiritual Qigong” is more effective than “Martial Qigong” in a Martial Art? As far as I am aware the only styles to come even close to merging “Martial & Spiritual” is Taijiquan and Bagua Zhang.

From my understanding, Fu Wei Zhong stated that only a few of the 12 have been taught to the public to date. How did Cho Family get four? Why only four, seems incomplete to me. I don’t see anything uniquely different happening with those movements in Emei Shier Zhuang as compared to the same movements in Zhineng Qigong, Bai He Xiao Yue Gong or Taijiquan.

The person who created SLT of what yik kam practice in 1848 clearly shown four level .

Again, unless one attain it one doesn’t know.

And here is my point, it is only found in YKWC SNT. No other branch contains it.

Now that you cherry picked my post, would you care to address the issues I pointed out and answer all my questions?

I don’t cherry pick at your post, in fact I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, when I say

Toto this is not Kansas City anymore

Thank you for the diagram and explanation, this gives me a little more insight into Emei Shier Zhuang, but you still haven’t fully addressed the 6 issues I pointed out.

At no time have I suggested that Emei Shier Zhuang is not a part of YKWC. I believe that it is. I made the statement that it is not original or integral to the development and creation of all WC collectively.
IMO a method of “Martial” qigong is the “Engine” of WC not “Spiritual” qigong.

Is Emei Shier Zhuang martial in nature? If so I would certainly like to see it applied.

9

As I stated movement & philosophy wise it’s another story. So it’s “Spiritual Qigong”. How does one suggest that “Spiritual Qigong” is more effective than “Martial Qigong” in a Martial Art? As far as I am aware the only styles to come even close to merging “Martial & Spiritual” is Taijiquan and Bagua Zhang.

Did I ever say spiritual at all?

Nope.

And here is my point, it is only found in YKWC SNT. No other branch contains it.

There will be no answer can satisfy you.

Thank you for the diagram and explanation, this gives me a little more insight into Emei Shier Zhuang, but you still haven’t fully addressed the 6 issues I pointed out.

Reality is not according to what you or I think . Or how many point you or I address.
It is like falling Into sleep. Just sleep if one knows how to sleep.

At no time have I suggested that Emei Shier Zhuang is not a part of YKWC. I believe that it is. I made the statement that it is not original or integral to the development and creation of all WC collectively.
IMO a method of “Martial” qigong is the “Engine” of WC not “Spiritual” qigong. Is Emei Shier Zhuang martial in nature? If so I would certainly like to see it applied.

I careless on original or not . I careless on all kind of philosophy or qigong talk.

The bottom line is, if the snt set cannot develop what it suppose to develop , it is a useless.

10

Hendrik did you study the Emie Zhuang From this Emie Sifu or from that book you have mentioned about Emie Zhuang ? If it is as people say you cant learn Martial Arts or Kung fu from a book how can you learn the Emie Zhuang from a book ?

11

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266747]As I stated movement & philosophy wise it’s another story. So it’s “Spiritual Qigong”. How does one suggest that “Spiritual Qigong” is more effective than “Martial Qigong” in a Martial Art? As far as I am aware the only styles to come even close to merging “Martial & Spiritual” is Taijiquan and Bagua Zhang.

Did I ever say spiritual at all?

Nope. [/QUOTE]

Your statements imply that it is. It’s movements correlate to “Medical & Spiritual” Qigong methods. Your explanations of it lead me to believe that it is “Spiritual” in nature. If it is indeed martial it will undoubtedly have direct martial application. Does it have martial application?

And here is my point, it is only found in YKWC SNT. No other branch contains it.

There will be no answer can satisfy you.

I ask you, where is the proof that Emei Shier Zhuang has anything to do with my branch of WC? There is absolutely no reference to it anywhere in any of our documentation.

Thank you for the diagram and explanation, this gives me a little more insight into Emei Shier Zhuang, but you still haven’t fully addressed the 6 issues I pointed out.

Reality is not according to what you or I think . Or how many point you or I address.
It is like falling Into sleep. Just sleep if one knows how to sleep.

Seriously, could you be any more ambiguious?

At no time have I suggested that Emei Shier Zhuang is not a part of YKWC. I believe that it is. I made the statement that it is not original or integral to the development and creation of all WC collectively. IMO a method of “Martial” qigong is the “Engine” of WC not “Spiritual” qigong. Is Emei Shier Zhuang martial in nature? If so I would certainly like to see it applied.

I careless on original or not . I careless on all kind of philosophy or qigong talk.

The bottom line is, if the snt set cannot develop what it suppose to develop , it is a useless.

You’re making absolutely no sense what-so-ever! What exactly in your mind is it supposed to develop? Because what your insinuating is useless in application of martial techniques, SNT is not about contemplating your navel and attaining Buddhahood. Is there Gong training in SNT, absolutely, but it’s Gong training directed towards structure and maintenance of technique application. This is martial in nature. If Emei Shier Zhuang is not “Spiritual” or “Medical” but truely “Martial” then why bother with Wing Chun at all, why not just do Emei Shier Zhuang?

You are skirting around every relevant question posed. All you simply have to do is state yes or no, then explain.

Let’s cut out all this mystical mumbo-jumbo talk, I don’t believe in it. Prove to me that Ermei Shier Zhuang is more powerful than simple kinesiology.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1266749]

Let’s cut out all this mystical mumbo-jumbo talk, I don’t believe in it.

Prove to me that Ermei Shier Zhuang is more powerful than simple kinesiology.[/QUOTE]

You are free to believe as you like . As I have mentioned above, there will be no answer can satisfy you.

13

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266800]You are free to believe as you like . As I have mentioned above, there will be no answer can satisfy you.[/QUOTE]

I’m sorry you feel that way but in all honesty you have yet to provide me with an actual answer. I appreciate your time. I think at this point it’s best to agree to disagree.

14

[QUOTE=dlcox;1266802]I’m sorry you feel that way but in all honesty you have yet to provide me with an actual answer. I appreciate your time. I think at this point it’s best to agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

he cant answer your question cause he only trained with his sifu for 3 years hahaha. funny how he avoids answers whe he is asked direct questions. like a charlatan does.

15

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266740]I cannot in all honesty say that I know the inner workings of Ermei Shier Zhuang as I’ve never studied it, but I see nothing that is vastly different than any other system of “Qigong” that I have experience in.

There are nine level in emei 12 zhuang and ancient internal development, how many level have you attain to put yourself in a cook position?

Cho family yik kam siu Lin tau clearly record four level out of nine.
Unless one is there atleast at level three, how can now know what is going on?

I am not trying to put anyone down. I just think most of us are just naive to think we know what we have no idea , me included.

nine levels! i’m sorry for being rude gentleman. i dont have a problem saying what everyone is thinking , and the moderator can kick me off this tread if he wants, that is the biggest load of pie in the sky horse sh!t i have ever heard in my life. im falling out of my chair lmao hahahaha

16

[QUOTE=dlcox;1266735]

  1. This is because Cho Family has Cailifo influence and this is hard to look past even with documentation from a long time ago. Cailifo has undoubtedly altered the expression of the system. If it was not a part of the system only the Xiao Lian Tou form would exist. The ancestors of Cho Family obviously thought that they were lacking in material and added to the sysytem, to me this suggests that not all the answers could be found within the Xiao Lian Tou form that they possessed.

[/QUOTE]

Cho Dak Sing was taught directly by Zheng Dan Kam his first Martial Art was Siu Lien Tau (Wing Chun). His father Cho Shun was one of the last batch of disciples of Chan Huang, founder of CLF.

The family indoor SLT has not changed public SLT for demostration has. The CLF was modified with WC priciple by CDS and ZDK.

17

[QUOTE=FongSung;1266863]Cho Dak Sing was taught directly by Zheng Dan Kam his first Martial Art was Siu Lien Tau (Wing Chun). His father Cho Shun was one of the last batch of disciples of Chan Huang, founder of CLF.

The family indoor SLT has not changed public SLT for demostration has. The CLF was modified with WC priciple by CDS and ZDK.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your reply and elaboration. This only strengthens my argument that there is no Emei Shier Zhuang infused within Cho Family Wing Chun, otherwise it would have carried over into the Choy Lay Fut material.

18

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266711]Similar to knowing noodle, there are three level of Wck understanding.

Noodle, can be Chinese noodle, Japanese noodle , Italian noodle, Korean noodle.

The first level is
Looking at the photo of these and ague the heck out of what it is or what one think it is. In fact never taste anyone them or just taste one of them. The rest in speculations.

Ei. Taiji is the same with emei. White crane is the same with wing chun…etc.

The second level is
Tasted all of them and know what are them and thier differences.

Ei. Have develop skill both in taiji and emei white crane and wing chun to know they are infact different.

The third level is the cook level who knows how to cook them all and knowing the exact details.

Ei. Have develop advance skill knowing the DNA of the art and be able to describe the differences of each individual art according to the arts seven bows and six core elements signatures.

It is just this simple, but if one stuck in level one and keep wanting to argue as level three, it will be very frustrated. One simply cannot see beyond ones attainment level. But many don’t even know these three level exist. But thinking everything is the same, looking at photos will know everything.

Similar to the cook who can cook different noodle , unless one is there . Pretending or arguing is just a waste of the time. At the end of the day, when the world got educated to the cook level. What is the facts is clear.[/QUOTE]

You are the master of metaphor. You over complicate the simplest of things. You over complicate them because you do not understand how simple they are.

Wing chun is not like a noodle. It is a physical skill. It’s that simple. A skill. You do not need any metaphors to understand what wing chun is or anything else in wing chun. Just look at them as they really are.

A physical skill has to be performed it cannot be shown any other way and it cannot be taught any other way. If a person does not have the skill then he cannot really know the skills. If you cannot do it that proves you do not know it.

19

[QUOTE=tc101;1266890]You are the master of metaphor. You over complicate the simplest of things. You over complicate them because you do not understand how simple they are.

Wing chun is not like a noodle. It is a physical skill. It’s that simple. A skill. You do not need any metaphors to understand what wing chun is or anything else in wing chun. Just look at them as they really are.

A physical skill has to be performed it cannot be shown any other way and it cannot be taught any other way. If a person does not have the skill then he cannot really know the skills. If you cannot do it that proves you do not know it.[/QUOTE]

If people think like you there will have no iPhone or 777 air bus in this world

20

[QUOTE=dlcox;1266869]Thank you for your reply and elaboration. This only strengthens my argument that there is no Emei Shier Zhuang infused within Cho Family Wing Chun, otherwise it would have carried over into the Choy Lay Fut material.[/QUOTE]

Beside speculation, how can you know without examine the facts?

What is Wck a short strike art got to do with CLF which is long strike art using a totally different engine?