Hendrick and Company tgreads all here.

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[SIZE=4][B][SIZE=4][SIZE=5][SIZE=7]Since, right now, this is the oldest and thus first page of the thread I want to advise Hendrick and those who keep arguing with him that this thread has become the destination of all threads created by Hendric and also those who chose to argue about his research and views. Rather than have the forum filled with numerous threads of arguments, He said She said, and “research” presenting a possible view of history, I have decided to put it all here in one place. Those who are interested can browse and sift through this thread and take what they would like. Some of the posts may be repetitive, but that is the nature of this beast and part of the reason for all of those threads being merged into this one. There are older threads out there which will remain intact. However, any new postings or attempts to bring older threads with the same type of info or postings will be added to this thread and end up in the chronological order they were first made. Also, any new posts with the same subject matter or tone will also be placed here, albeit appearing at the end of this thread.

Anyone wishing to discuss is welcome to contact me either via PM or by email: Sihing73@juno.com[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/B][/SIZE]

20 channels means the activation of the 20 channels medirians of human body. Meaning every inch of the body response and action at every movement.

In Chinese martial art, the 20 channels has to be fully activate and train, otherwise, one will have certain part of the body which is “dead” and drag instead of the whole body is alive.

6 directional force vectors means to fully able to handle the force/momentum in a 3 dimensional space ; one needs to be able to handle all the force vectors and its combination in the 3 dimensional space ; which consist of the 6 force/momentum vectors.

1,
pay attention to the following

Pay attention on how every part of the body support each others which is another way to tell if all the 20 channels are on.

Pay attention to the strike to see how it is not a linear straight line but occupied the 3 D space with different force pattern combination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkqRwdbDeAM

2,

Now,

Pay attention to the two areas above ( 20 channels and 6DFV) in the following clip and see could this type of training handle the above #1 physical body and strike?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMGQpU1400&feature=related

If this type of training doesnt cover the basic handling of #1, then all the philosophy of center line, the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, secrete move…etc are actually useless. Why? because at the very contact the #2 train structure and dynamic will collapse in that first contact like the tsunami hit a card board house. The rest theory and reason is non material disregard of how sound it is.

The #2 training is actually problematic and the most it turn on 10 channels instead of fully 20 channels on. not to mention in this clip there are others issue of the structure. ie. the performer is just using local joints to power his move. the body is not one piece.

So, how is the #2 suppose to be used in real life? Cant. because it is partial .

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Then… Sil Lum Tao is not all encompassing? It is not enough, or inadequate? Or are most people training it incorrectly?

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[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1085702]Then… Sil Lum Tao is not all encompassing? It is not enough, or inadequate? Or are most people training it incorrectly?[/QUOTE]

SLT, in the ancient time is about compression.

Meaning after one open the 20 channels, handling the 6DFV, one then using SLT to compress the ability to a small and high intensity moves. the goal is all the 20 channels and 6dfv activate in a small motion or even not that visible motion. It is like the concentrate nuclear power generation.

In my lineage,
In the old time, if one doesnt have a few years of basic training, SLT is not taught to them. It is an advance set. the key is not in the move or secret moves. there is no secret but do one has the kung fu to be compress?

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[QUOTE=Hendrik;1085708]SLT, in the ancient time is about compression.

Meaning after one open the 20 channels, handling the 6DFV, one then using SLT to compress the ability to a small and high intensity moves. the goal is all the 20 channels and 6dfv activate in a small motion or even not that visible motion. It is like the concentrate nuclear power generation.

In my lineage,
In the old time, if one doesnt have a few years of basic training, SLT is not taught to them. It is an advance set. the key is not in the move or secret moves. there is no secret but do one has the kung fu to be compress?[/QUOTE]

You’ve lost the plot Hendrik.

This post is utter nonsense.

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[QUOTE=shawchemical;1085716]You’ve lost the plot Hendrik.

This post is utter nonsense.[/QUOTE]

Lost and nonsense dont mean a thing. but words.

do you do your SLT like #2?

Show us how you do your SLT and what is the possibility you could face #1 clip?

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20 Channels here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwvHEVt8rgE&feature=related

2.12/3.54 …ect

That clip #2 has no chance to handle these. the bottom line is one needs to making sense in term of mechanics and momentum.

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the bottom line is one needs to making sense

Feel free to start at any time.

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I think I get the basic idea but lets run it down, if 20 channels means 20 points of the body that need to be in motion or “alive”, lets see.

  1. Right hand(fingers to wrists)
  2. Left hand
  3. Right Elbow(forearms to elbow)
  4. Left Elbow
  5. Right Shoulder(elbow to shoulder)
  6. Left Shoulder
  7. Chest
  8. Stomach
  9. Back
  10. Neck
  11. Head
  12. Left Foot (Toes to Ankle)
  13. Right Foot
  14. Left Knee (Ankle to knee)
  15. Right Knee
  16. Right side of the hip (knee to hip)
  17. Left side of the hip
  18. Pelvis
    19 and 20. ???

Is this something of what you’re getting at, hendrik?

I guess the most obvious example of this would be in chi sao, when someone attacks with one hand, a common mistake is to leave the other hand “dead”.

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I know where you are coming from AdrianK.

However, unless I am mistaken, Hendrik is specifically referring to the 20 meridians (12 ordinary and 8 extraordinary) from a Traditional Chinese Medicine perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_(Chinese_medicine)

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Lots of overgeneralizations on wing chun in Hendrik’s posts on this thread. You don’t have to do only Yik Kams art to open the channels and develop control over directions. Those things are well known when TCMA is taught well, including good Ip Man wing chun.
Yik Kam MA has some Wing chun and some CLF etc.

And BTW- claiming that Ip Man wing chun evolved from YKS is just someone’s opinion. All sorts of stories abound and are posssible.

.
The last CLF demo is interesting and good but not related to wing chun IMO. All sorts of demos
are possible with a student just standing there. Of course one should try to be prepared for CLF strikes, boxing punches, wrestlers grabs, judoka’s throws etc..

I know that Hendrik is well informed on a lot of things. His English can be problematic but fairly understandable to me much of the time. He is multi lingual (Indonesian Bhasa, Cantonese, Mandarin, Malay etc) and English is not his first language. My disagreements with Hendrik
on Ip Man wing chun are substantial on some of his posts.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1085761]Lots of overgeneralizations on wing chun in Hendrik’s posts on this thread. You don’t have to do only Yik Kams art to open the channels and develop control over directions. Those things are well known when TCMA is taught well, including good Ip Man wing chun.
Yik Kam MA has some Wing chun and some CLF etc. joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]

Joy,

Perhaps you could expound on the channels and how to open them for the benefit of those of us who missed that part of class ;). I am unfamiliar with this approach, but perhaps I am thinking in different terms or maybe I don’t know it at all. In any event, knowledge is never wasted so I would be open to learning more in a clear, understandable context.

I always thought and was taught that there were eight directions not six. Again, perhaps we are talking about two different things.

An honest inquiry with a desire to understand.

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Wing Chun, Taiji and TCMA issues.

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1085767]Joy,

Perhaps you could expound on the channels and how to open them for the benefit of those of us who missed that part of class ;). I am unfamiliar with this approach, but perhaps I am thinking in different terms or maybe I don’t know it at all. In any event, knowledge is never wasted so I would be open to learning more in a clear, understandable context.

I always thought and was taught that there were eight directions not six. Again, perhaps we are talking about two different things.

An honest inquiry with a desire to understand.[/QUOTE]

Oh boy! Dave! It would take a long time to explain my understanding.Best shown.In any case-in my every day language-good martial motion includes blending ,according to a good art’s guidelines, the human mechanical system(the skeletal and bone alignment), the electrical system (coordinated signals throughout the body), the chemical system(blood flow and oxygenization)
and proper energy usage(quietening the mind, focus etc), plus the equivalent of applied physics( balance, recovering balance, in tune with gravity, understanding the vectors-paths of forces, action-reaction-yin-yang etc). Great TCMAs do that. In good taiji standing stake works in a stable platform, silk reeling works with motion. In taiji the feet generally point forward. In wing chun-
there are the marvels of yee gee kim yeung ma for it’s standing stake and chum kiu for the foundations of motion. Because of the differences in taiji’s feet position and wing chun’s feet position the role of the tailbone is somewhat different…for the energy to flow and for the structure to be stabilized… and usable.

Taiji works on timing and creative applications through push hands, wing chun through various kinds of chi sao. Good alignment of all the systems are important in both arts.Understanding of the role of the dan tien are important in both arts.

Because of the details of axial alignment, IMO wing chun when taught and learned properly is the more effective martial art-though top quality taiji is better than bad wing chun.
Chen taiji only has two major hand forms for the development of principles, Ip Man wing chun
has 3. Some other TCMAS needs and has many more forms to develop equivalencies…true for CLF, Hun Gar etc. Then some add on elements from elsewhere because what they practice lacks something or the other.

IMO one cannot learn good TCMA by watching videos and reading books. Just as many taichi in park practitioners don’t have a clue to what taiji is about, chain store wing chun can miss the boat. In parallel fashion most yoga classes just deal with empty shells.

I was not going to comment but ina fraternal but brief way- I tried… in response to your suggestion.
Gotta run- please excuse typos.

Joy Chaudhuri

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Adrian, Violent Design,

20 channels is the terminology the advance TCMA use to define motion training…etc

1,
For simplicity reason, just think the 20 channels are strings which is connecting all the joints of the body in different way. and some channels is linking up joints for rotation, some channels for up and down motion…etc.

So, you have all the joints and you have the strings (channels) that connect them up for different body motion purpose.

2, the channels also connecting to the muscle and internal organs operation.

Try this:

Open up the hand 3 Yin medirian, which is the 3 channels flowing from the chest to the tip of the finger via the inner arm or palm side of the hand.

Doing it by pushing the wall motion and exhale. one can push hard. see how is the feeling from the chest to the palm. see if the chest got stuck or the light.

Reverse: if one inhale while pushing the wall, notice what is the feeling in chest.

see for yourself when is the chest got stuck and when is everything is light. is that push effective?

Again,

Open up the hand 3 yang medirians, which is the 3 channels flowing from the tip of the fingers via the back of the palm, the outside of the arm to the side of the head.

Doing it by grap some thing and inhale. one can grap hard. see how is that grip hold? see if the chest feel smooth even one can grap hard.

Reverse: if one exhale while grapping. see if one can really grap ? how is the feeling in the chest? is that grap effective?

Look at these clip, and see how many muscle group, joints group. the set train.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yWlLhNBHrI&feature=related

How about the following?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMGQpU1400&feature=related

The wholisitic/complete the muscle group, joints group, one train; the better it is and also it be able to handle the six directional force vectors ( forward/back ward, up/down, left/ right) in the same time. these six direction force vectors is a must to have for moving in a three dimensional space.

Saying the above.

the following clip is about compressing the 20 channels movement to handle the six directional force vectors practice. Zhan Zhuang or standing post or slow moving steps as in the clip is for that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_s1ucajOONY

SLT is belong to this group of training. However, it has become a kiss of death when one just mimic the following where it has lost is soul and become totally useless. not accord with the ancient training at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMGQpU1400&feature=related

Thus, when friends visited me I share to open up their 20 channels and 6DFV, no big deal at all. but there on their SLT or training will be different because they no longer live in the same paradigm as they before. Thus, their WCK can improve within a few hours, where now they have the tool to do what they have never known they have.

So, SLT is actually a Compression art. it compress the big movement of 20 channels and 6DFV into small movement. it becomes a high density/intensity momentum. like a compress diamond. that is the power and beauty of it. However, it still cant by passed the 20 channels and 6DFV fundamental. Things like the power point explosion and fast short power are just a result of these compression. there is nothing mysterious.

However, without the 20 channels and 6DFV handling one really has nothing to compress and thus cant get to the point of usefullness.

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Joy,

Thanks for the reply. I think I understand what you are saying and referring to. Not saying my WC is any good, but now I have a better frame of reference for comparison and better understanding.

FWIW, I have noticed that I am able to bounce some of my partners back in Chi Sau using a Bong Sau, however the Bong does not press forward or push the opponents arm. Kind of hard to describe, more of a rebounding of the energy they give me. But, it does seem to perhaps touch on some things concerning structure. Then again, as Sifu Chow used to tell my partners when they asked how I was able to do things, if my footwork sucked, he would tell them it was because they sucked too, lol. So perhaps I am king of the suckers or at least a prince. :smiley:

At least I am now thinking more, although my head hurts a little as it is not often used other than to hold up my head. :wink:

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while you are going through the check list to make sure all your stuff is on line, your assailant is wind milling on your a$$. I am sorry, but all this is over thinking it in way too many ways. I don’t think any of it is relevent to good Wing Chun.

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[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1085796]while you are going through the check list to make sure all your stuff is on line, your assailant is wind milling on your a$$. I am sorry, but all this is over thinking it in way too many ways. I don’t think any of it is relevent to good Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]

Hello,

The time to think to think and analyze is not during a fight. However, to explore more deeply and gain understanding may allow one to react better during a fight.

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;1085800]Hello,

The time to think to think and analyze is not during a fight. However, to explore more deeply and gain understanding may allow one to react better during a fight.[/QUOTE]

Yup, it is how much covered and how solid one prepared.

No kidding any physical including dancing the 20 channels and 6DFV for handling purpose is there ;take a look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4u6ycs90YIk

so if one cant have that the feel, go dancing and let it out.

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[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1085796]while you are going through the check list to make sure all your stuff is on line, your assailant is wind milling on your a$$. I am sorry, but all this is over thinking it in way too many ways. I don’t think any of it is relevent to good Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know if any of what Hendrik is talking about is relevant to WC, but isn’t that the point of this discussion board? To find out about other interesting ideas from other lineages? To grow from an exchange of knowledge and debate?

To be honest, in martial arts today, there’s more underthinking than there is over. Oversimplification have made a lot of traditional arts, a joke to people. Imagine if nobody ever thought about how to make weight training more safe and effective, and instead just said “lift weights, get big”. Thats just one thing that has benefited from people “overthinking” things.

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have anyone try the above opening example I post? what is your observation if you had?

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Just an observation Hendrik, but if you’re saying that dancing uses this 6FV stuff more than some martial arts I agree. But tell that to everyone that criticizes me for learning ‘how to perform’ Wing Chun and taking the art of our system to ‘operatic’ levels.

Out of interests, and in a genuine attempt to try to contribute to your thread, would you consider this type of training useful to develop and open your channels? I have found it to help, but that’s just me… Demo @ 1:05
http://www.youtube.com/user/FLYstudio108?feature=mhsn