Wing Chun - development of a martial art

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Hi Fellow Martial Artists,

This is my first post …

Ive been spending alot of time of late thinking about WC and for what its worth, here are some of my thoughts about this great martial art.

WC is somewhat different to the other Southern Chinese martial arts. The focus on these styles are on what I call “off hand” fighting - eg Hung Ga, CLF, Bak Mei etc.
By focussing on off hand fighting, arm sensitivity becomes unimportant - these styles therefore can be viewed as being ‘external’.

WC is quite different - it has concepts that can be found in Internal Styles such as Tai Chi - deflection, redirection etc, and alot of time is spent training arm sensitivity. However, WC has also alot of external martial art elements - chain punching for example.

That being the case, WC can be viewed as a hybrid style - ie an Internal and External Martial art. WC is essentially a product of an attempt by the Southern Chinese Martial Arts movement to create an internal martial art. Unfortunately if once compares WC to Tai Chi - it doesnt quite get there yet…

Not being internal / external is a dangerous place to be. You don’t quite have the hard “heavy handed” power like the external styles nor do you quite have the internal chi power of the internal martial arts.

Today many WC practitioners naturally tend to focus on the external elements of the art to generate power. This is a product of:

a. Western mindset of power.
b. Not understanding how to use chi to generate power.

So to a large extent WC’s soft/internal elements have not continued to develop/ plays a secondary role to its external elements. It is because of this, I think WC has reverted to becoming more of an external martial art rather than continuing its development as an internal style.

I personally believe if WC is to mature and develop as an even greater martial art style, it should focus on its soft/internal elements not its external.

2

You must be very knowledgeable with regards to CLF and Bak Mei?

IMHO the shapes do look very different but these arts are excellent martial arts. Seperating styles into external and internal is a very basic way of describing them and most arts should be internal at a high level.

The future of wing chun is making it work. Wing chun is a system wtih great potential in the right hands. The only reason it is so popular is because of its reputation as a fighting art and the connection to Bruce Lee.

Paul

3

Thanks for posting your comments Paul.

I have studied both CLF and Bak Mei.

I did not mean to classify a style as either external or internal. I merely meant to highlight the emphasis/focus of these styles. I also agree that the focus of martial arts should be internal at a high level. Unfortunately I think too much time is spent on the external elements. Perhaps there is also a perception that the internal elements are not as practical in combat.

I think its a given that all martial arts should work in combat. Every style has a practitioner/master that has proven this.

Is it not ironic that a man that has made WC so popular no longer described himself as a WC practitioner? I think Bruce Lee’s view towards martial arts is not unique - it has always been the case that at the highest level, there is no (or only one) style - it becomes one’s own style. Styles and their forms are merely guidelines to help a student reach that level. Unfortunately many become “loyal” to a style and fail to appreciate this …

4

i do not find classifications of methods as external or internal helpful. the efficacy of Wing Chun has little to do with the subjective experience of the practitioner.

instead, we interpret whether the method has proved successful by the reaction of the opponent.

have we elicited a response in our opponent which directly correlates to a manifestation of immense pain?

additionally, our action should be analysed in accordance with the following.

Was it:
1)simple;
2) direct; and
3) efficient?

5

I’m not sure Bruce Lee is a particularly good poster boy for your arguments.

From what it sounds like your definition of the internal/external continuum might be (and there are so many), Bruce would have been the external boxer par excellence. I think he might have called much of the “internal” stuff a waste of time and denigrated its promoters as charlatans.

If sensitivity cultivation is the hallmark of an internal MA, then arguably BJJ is as internal as WC, probably more so. This is not necessarily a refutation of your position, BTW.

6

[QUOTE=judge88;740248]You don’t quite have the hard “heavy handed” power like the external styles nor do you quite have the internal chi power of the internal martial arts..[/QUOTE]

All power is the result of the nervous system, the muscles, the tendons and the bones in a chain of movement.

You can’t power have without each of these. Take any one of these things out of the chain and you lose all power.

Chi, neuromusclular transmission, or whatever you want to label it, is worthless without the muscles, tendons and bones as part of the interdependent chain.

7

[QUOTE=anerlich;740352] I think he might have called much of the “internal” stuff a waste of time and denigrated its promoters as charlatans..[/QUOTE]

In most cases he would be right.

8

[QUOTE=judge88;740248]Hi Fellow Martial Artists, [/quote]Welcome to the board. Knifefighter’s graced you with his presence on your thread, so this is gonna be a baptism of fire! :smiley:

By focussing on off hand fighting, arm sensitivity becomes unimportant - these styles therefore can be viewed as being ‘external’.
Naturally all this is IMO.

Arm sensitivity is only important if you can dictate the range efficiently. Too much time is spent developing arm sensitivity in wing chun and not enough spent sparring/drills which enables you to get used to reading different ranges.

And at very close range it shares more with a grappling style, or boxing clinch-work, than the so-called internal arts.

WC is quite different - it has concepts that can be found in Internal Styles such as Tai Chi - deflection, redirection etc,
These distinctions are also found in a lot of high level karate: the epitome of a so-called external art. Goju-ryu even has a sticking hands drill.

However, WC has also alot of external martial art elements - chain punching for example.
I consider chain punching to be a drill. It’s actual application is limited to destroying the ‘guard’ of people backing off and covering their heads: like small children and grandmothers! :smiley:

WC is essentially a product of an attempt by the Southern Chinese Martial Arts movement to create an internal martial art.
There is no such movement! Are you kidding! We all know the backbiting that goes on within wing chun, do you really think there is any kind of unified movement between styles?!

Unfortunately if once compares WC to Tai Chi - it doesnt quite get there yet…
Applesa nd aoranges. Upon what basis are you comparing?

No time now, but I’ll be back for the rest of your post! :wink:

9

[QUOTE=judge88;740248]Not being internal / external is a dangerous place to be. You don’t quite have the hard “heavy handed” power like the external styles nor do you quite have the internal chi power of the internal martial arts.[/quote]These external and internal definitions are just two ways of classifying different ways of moving to the same effect. It’s not a dangerous place to be at all. By different people’s definitions the same art may be internal, external, or ‘don’t care’!

I know many ‘internal’ artists who can hit heavy handed like a truck, and I’ve yet to see any direct evidence that this is anything more than body mechanics, certainly no evidence of chi.

Today many WC practitioners naturally tend to focus on the external elements of the art to generate power. This is a product of:

a. Western mindset of power.
Bull. Why? Your dualism is a product of ‘western mindsets’ if ever there was one.

b. Not understanding how to use chi to generate power.
Also bull. The vast majority of wing chun lines don’t even consider ‘chi’. Why should we consider it if we can hit hard? I’d prefer to concentrate on the wall bag, and punch bags etc to develop a strong punch.

So to a large extent WC’s soft/internal elements have not continued to develop/ plays a secondary role to its external elements. It is because of this, I think WC has reverted to becoming more of an external martial art rather than continuing its development as an internal style.
Again, ‘reverting’ suggests that that’s where it started. Those definitions weren’t even in common currency when WC was started!

I personally believe if WC is to mature and develop as an even greater martial art style, it should focus on its soft/internal elements not its external.
Good for you. It’s an interesting art, and I hope you can make it work for you when you need it.

10

I dont think being in between Internal and external is not an Dnagerous place to be. That is the charm of WCK. We are Taoism personified. We are the middle path. We also dont have the weakness that a pure external style has nor the weakness of an internal style. WCK is a hybred approach.

I agree completly that in most H.K WCK branchs, and many other branchs, the internal quality has been almost completly lost. And i agree completly that its gone down the sad road of External. BUt -There is hope!!!

First let me define , When i Say Wing Chun Kuen, i refer to , Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung, Cheung Bo, Wong Jing, Mai Gai wong, Leung Jan Kulo Village Fung Family, Cho Gar Yik kam , Yiu Kay/Yiu Choi, Leung Jan Foshan system from CHan Wah Shun and Lo Kwai, and Pan Nam branchs. Cant speak for any other group. But you have to sample these various branchs. And you will see in most of them more internal qualities across them all.

Yong Chun County White crane was fused with a softer - Internal Snake Boxing art. So the snake aspect is Internal. Yong Chun County white crane has several versions. The Harder version is probably the older approach, and the softer approach is similar to WCKs approach. So we probably came from the Harder -older Yong Chun County and than was mixed with the internal style.

Now lets make something clear. What wing chun style are you using as a referance point??? As i see alot of Kung Fu guys from other arts using H.K WCK as the referance point. H.K WCK is modernized. It was streamlined by Yip Man, when he taught hte public. And at that point, that was the first time , WCK was openly taught. You cant say what WCK is like unless you look at all the differant older branchs and get a big context picture. Your statements might be valid in regards to Newer WCK systems Post 1950-.

But Older WCK takes White crane Inch Power, and turbo charges it with the internal style. We also have very defined Yik Gang training, which isnt found in H.K WCK. We also use Body Shape that is differant to H.K. We have Sow hung for the Chest, CHum the shoulders, Elbows closed in twords center, Rectum contracted, knees Chum ect. We dont even shift the same way as H.K.

Anyone interested in seeing one of the parents of Wing Chun check out Lee Kang Sifu from H.K you wont believe your eyes, BUT you have to compare it to an older WCK method for it to make sence.

             brian
11

IMHO,

The training of Advance CMA is either go external or internal. It could not be both external and internal.

the most basic elements are

1, External art is a programing art that the more programs/drills/ applicatons one accumulate the more one is complete.
and while moving the body, one is moving the part of the body directly.

2, Internal art is an Awareness art that one train only to develop Awareness in all part of the body and let it flow as needed.
and while moving the body, one is leading the qi, and let the qi transport the body.
This has to be done this way because any tensing will blocking Awareness.

IMHO, WCK has to go 2 to get to very advance level. go 1 will " look speed up" the learning however, it ultimately will not get to the core— AWAREness to a high development state. an effortless WCK or FLOW WCK depend greatly on Awareness and a differnet type of power generation is needed.

peace

12

It could not be both external and internal.

It can be and is. in the engineer-speak you commandeer for your sometimes questionable ends, it is OR, not XOR.

The I Ching, whose principles you misappropriated to “bolster” another argument on another thread, will tell you the same thing.

13

It can be and is. in the engineer-speak you commandeer for your sometimes questionable ends, it is OR, not XOR. ----

if we are speak about Traditional Chinese Martial art, Nope, it cant be. The major reason is once one train in one way the body build up a type of habitual conditioning.

The I Ching, whose principles you misappropriated to “bolster” another argument on another thread, will tell you the same thing. ------

There is nothing to do with I Ching from book reading or accumulated book reading knowledge. It is about the facts of what happen in Chinese Martial art Conditioning.

You might think I am — misappropriated to “bolster” ..— however the Truth might be I am speak the true from experience not from logical speculation and some just cant understand because one has not yet in that paradigm or state.

Again , I could be wrong, however, why mislead others when in fact, it cannot be done is reality disregard of how sound one’s logical speculation is.

The Bottom line is once the body can only be condition in one way — Either Hard Bow or Soft Bow. Eventhought the Soft Bow can emulate hard, it is not from Hard Bow training.

As for the Hard Bow, it is not able emulate Soft Bow effect.

No one needs to believe me, however, think about it, why is for the past 60 years or so Inch Short Power become extinct? could the direction of sound great mixing of hard and soft itself got a big problem ?

Just some thought. it is not about argument, but it is about not misleading others to go on a road which will not get one there.

14

The major reason is once one train in one way the body build up a type of habitual conditioning.

So, don’t train in just one way. Duh!

the Truth might be I am speak the true from experience not from logical speculation and some just cant understand because one has not yet in that paradigm or state.

That could be the truth, then again it might not. I’m betting on option B.

No one needs to believe me, however, think about it, why is for the past 60 years or so Inch Short Power become extinct?

I can tell you, “true from experience”, that I know a number of practitioners for whom “Inch Short Power” is most definitely not extinct. I’m not actually all that hopeless at it myself.

Maybe you need to get some more of that experience and awareness about what is going on in the world you keep telling everyone they need to get?

but it is about not misleading others to go on a road which will not get one there.

And with that in mind, I would counsel others not to accept your supposed “insights” uncritically.

If anyone deserves the IgNobel Award for describing a point to get to without being able to explain how to get there, it’s you.

15

[QUOTE=anerlich;740585]

I can tell you, “true from experience”, that I know a number of practitioners for whom “Inch Short Power” is most definitely not extinct. I’m not actually all that hopeless at it myself.

.[/QUOTE]

Then, get into the subject, share with us

how are all these people who you experience with train? Soft or hard or as you suggested mix? and also please define what is soft or hard according to you.

what is the result and what is the characteristics of thier Inch Short power?
Also, share with us the process to get there.

16

Completely wrong about Bak mei and hung gar in your very first post.

17

IMHO,

instead of commenting on this is right or wrong.

why dont we present the training process to get where is intended instead?

That way we can discuss about techinical facts from different point of view.

18

Hi,

I dont agree fully with “Either External or Internal” - exclusivly. That would be like saying - Yin and Yang = 2 instead of - Yin and Yang = 1.

Wing chun is not an internal style. Its not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang. WCK could be practised like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang or It could be practised like Weng Chun County White Crane. or it can be practised like it should, in the middle.
Focusing on 1 and not both, would be counter intuitive to Why WCK was created. We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Weng chun County white crane, as we allready have Weng Chun County White crane. We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Emie 12 Jong as we allready have Emie 12 jong.

WCK is a Hybred style with Fused components from 2 core systems, with a 3rd system of thought for the core of application, as well as possibly parts from 2 or 3 other systems. Hence WCK is meant to fuse the 2 core differant methods, And be “Middle Path” - Not walking in either extreme of training.

Programing the muscles is a valid part of the Sup Yee San SIk training in YKS and Kulo WCK. During this programing Yik Gang is trained. Once a framework has been ingrained, you gradualy shift the training twords Yee and Chi. This follows the framework that White Crane trains. From external to internal. Both being part of the big picture and needed for the proper development, IMO

The temple of the body must be strengthened. Tendons need to be changed. Skeletal system must learn to align and muslces must allow to settle and relax. This gives a Framework for the Chi To be built up in, that can handle the higher voltage and energy.

19

Just some thoughts for technical discussion:

Please do not read this post if you are not interested in technical and only technical discussion. For IMHO, this post might be political incorrect because it is about digging up what is the truth.

I dont agree fully with “Either External or Internal” - exclusivly. That would be like saying - Yin and Yang = 2 instead of - Yin and Yang = 1. -----

You dont have to agree with me.

if we are talking Traditional Chinese Martial art, then,

we first has to know what is an external art and what is an internal art. we need to actually trained with experience teacher before we can make any type of comment which reflex the reality. Otherwise, it is a mind spining seculation not what reality is about.

Your example of Yin and Yang IMHO, is off the mark totally, IMHO, because one cannnot be awake and sleeping in the same time disregard how one can reason logically or thinking reasonablely.

Most of us, eventhought see lots of Taiji or whatever so called internal art on TV or DVD…ect the truth is how many including those in China has activated the 8 special medirians and doing the set with that type of standard?

If not, then one doesnt know what is internal training. That clear. However, how many of us willing to accept this facts? NOPE, mimic posture is not by default internal art at all.

Thus, I have heard.
So, that is another layer of depth one needs to enter to know internal. Until the special 8 medirians is activate, one just could imagine what is that about.

so, if we are using this type of standard, look at the WCner of the past 60 years. HOw many have this type of understanding?

Wing chun is not an internal style. -------

Again, if one is talking about Traditional Chinese Martial art, then one needs to first define what is an internal art of TRaditional Chinese Martial art, what is the process of the training, otherwise, there is no discussion can be proceed.

Its not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang.-------

It is not Emie Sup Yee Zhuang but it has the components of Emie 12 Zhuang, that is a fact by evidents which we know today.

WCK could be practised like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang or It could be practised like Weng Chun County White Crane. or it can be practised like it should, in the middle. -----

So, how is WCK practice like Emie Sup Yee Zhuang is like? what kind of result will it yield?

So, HOw is WCK practive like Weng Chun County White Crane is like? what kind of result will it yield?

So, what is middle? what kind of result will it yield?

Until these are all clear, there is no meaning for the speculation because it really has no meaning in the TRaditional Chinese Martial art experience sense, May be in arguement shake make sense. But in training and the process of training what is that means?

Focusing on 1 and not both, would be counter intuitive to Why WCK was created.----

This is a problem. do we know what are those parents are? do we have indepth knowledge via experience? if not then we dont know.

We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Weng chun County white crane, as we allready have Weng Chun County White crane. We wouldnt need to have WCK if we were going to practise it like Emie 12 Jong as we allready have Emie 12 jong. ------

True,

However, the second one practice whatever style which is based on Emei 12 Jong in a hard/external way. there no longer has the benifit of the Emei 12 jong. Because Emei 12 Jong based art is internal and solid internal and only can yield result with Internal training. Go Emei way has to go internal. meaning is one practice the move in the external or hard way. The SNAKE DIE. snake has to go soft and internal if it is taking advantage/benifit from the Emei 12 zhuang’s snake slide pupal moves.

WCK is a Hybred style with Fused components from 2 core systems, with a 3rd system of thought for the core of application, as well as possibly parts from 2 or 3 other systems. Hence WCK is meant to fuse the 2 core differant methods, And be “Middle Path” - Not walking in either extreme of training. -------

what is a middle path in term of Mind/Body/Qi? until one could define that we dont know what is it but just word without meaning.

IMHHHHO,

it is not a middle path. it is Snake powered Crane potential.
Snake powered because the process of training capable to cultivate a snake like power.
Crane potential because the application potential is core on center line, five elements concept of white crane of Fujian.

So, it is an internal cultivation art using the center potential. Look at the SLT/SNT is that is the set presenting and expressing? the issue today is that one still can identify the Crane potential however the snake powered has fade away much more servely and become no clear.

Programing the muscles is a valid part of the Sup Yee San SIk training in YKS and Kulo WCK. -------

That is fine, and WCK has been going Throught multi Localization Evolution due to multi-lineage and 150 years atleast. So, some might like it to be Kyokushin style and some will like it to be BJJ style. Nothing wrong with it. everyone is right. however, how to turn on the SLT/SNT engine? that become a question.

During this programing Yik Gang is trained.-----

Could Yi Gang turn on the SLT/SNT Engine? NOPE, If Yi Gang training could turn it on then one doesnt need supplement such as the kidney Qi return to its origine.. IMHO.

Yi Gang is not Snake slide pulpa move, not to mention Yi Gang has many version. So which version of Yi Gang? That needs to be solved.

Once a framework has been ingrained, you gradualy shift the training twords Yee and Chi. ------

How to cultivate Yee and Chi? the process, without that again, it is mind speculation which has no meaning but lots of words.

This follows the framework that White Crane trains. From external to internal. Both being part of the big picture and needed for the proper development, IMO------

So, what is the training of White Crane? what is the different between the eating crane, the older post 1800 crane, the humming crane…etc. Which is internal which is external? even Crane, Yes, Crane has evolved into Hard or soft system after 1800.

So, which is which?

The temple of the body must be strengthened. Tendons need to be changed. Skeletal system must learn to align and muslces must allow to settle and relax. This gives a Framework for the Chi To be built up in, that can handle the higher voltage and energy.-------

Great idea but how?

The most screw up today IMHHHHHO is that we are comparing posture not the Process of training. and the key about INternal and external is in the Process of training not in the posture.

and

we have lost the training Process, but evolve with different type of application from Karate Side Kick adding into CK in the 60’s to BJJ application added in the 90’s. But we lost the training process or the body/mind/breathing conditioning core part of the art since early 1900. IMHO

Localized EVolution is a must and right. However, do we still do WCK? that is a quesition we could search into.

IMHO, lets face it in the past 60 years, WCK is importing lots of great application and evolve great in the applications of the art. However, do we still have the process for training that we could trace to answer the question either it is external or internal? That we all know and have to admit, today, WCK is an external art in general.

20

An alternative view offered as a balance . . . .

A training method is only as good as the results it produces. If we are training in martial arts (WCK) to develop our fighting skills (to significantly increase our fighting ability), the only way to determine those results is by genuinely fighting (realistic sparring), at full intensity/power or close to it. If we are training for some other sort of results, then IMO we aren’t doing martial arts – we’re using a martial art as a vehicle for something else or playing some other game. And then it loses its martial value.

When we fight/spar realistically and against decent competition – someone that can really push us to our limit – we will need to move at 100, full-out, with all the power we can muster, with all the speed we can muster, etc. This requirement will place limitations on the things we can do as our bodies can only move in certain ways, do certain things, etc. at full-intensity. How our bodies move, react, behave, etc. at 100% is very different than how it moves, reacts, behaves, at lower intensities. You can train to do all kinds of things at lower intensity, and find that they fail when you reach a certain level of intensity.

Theories about how we should train, the process of training, etc. are just that – theories. It is easy to say “if you train this way or that way, you will develop X or Y”. I’m sure people believe these things. Typically, because they want to believe those things. Sifu has told them or it fits their philosophy of life or whatever. And many people are convinced because they see demonstratations of these abilities at lower intensities (like in chi sao). However, being able to do something at lower intensity is no indication that you – or anyone – can do them at fighting level intensity. The only way to know if your body can do these things at fighting intensity (100%) is by trying to do them while actually fighting.

One of the real problems in TCMAs is that most of the “training” is at lower levels of intensity (non-realistic training). This gives people a false sense of reality – because they base conclusions about fighting from the feedback they are getting from their nonrealisitic practice. It is also the problem with begining from a concept or idea. They can make that idea or concept work at lower level intensity so they conclude it will work at higher level intensities. In my view, and after much experience, I’ve found that you can’t start at that end – the low intensity end – but must start with the fight and work from there.

I’m always interested in better, more effective ways of training or using my WCK. In my many years of practicing WCK, I’ve visited many WCK instructors, “masters”, and “grandmasters.” I’ve also seen and felt the so-called top-notch “internal” guys like CXW. What I’ve very rarely seen, however, are any of these people actually willing to fight/spar to show that their theories hold water. And when I did see these people “pushed” to a realistic level of fighting intensity, they began moving differently than how they said and trained to move – and so all their training went out the window (because they had trained to move one way and were now being force to move in another way).

When anyone fights or spars realistically, it will “look” like NHB/MMA regardless of the style that person practices. That is the reality. If you are concerned with developing better fighting skills - through WCK or whatever - this is what you need to prepare for.