The Search for Intelligent Life in WC

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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There are 2 things that sell well namely thrill and curiousity. It is funny that after so many years I am still curious about the original designing purposes of WC. The variety of forum opinions on this topics has swinged pretty wide from one extreme end to another without pause for quite a while now. Perhaps the WC train engine originally had started on one specific track but since then has been busily roaming and expanding its mighty rail network in the wild wild West to the point that we can no longer recognize those original pioneering trails. I’m again curious at this point if there are such things as “DNA” evidences in the WC forms that points clearly back to that prime cause of all our contentions. Can we lay to rest this year once for all at least this nagging question - what is the original meaning and purpose of WC once upon a time in China?

Regards,
PH

2

…the Gracies created it to become the most widely practiced CMA in hopes that one day their opponents would be useless when brought to the ground…

or

…the koreans created it become the most widely practiced CMA in hopes that one day their opponents would be useless against kicks and couldn’t kick in return…

or

…the internal stylists created it become the most widely practiced CMA in hopes that one day their opponents would be useless against chi attacks and couldn’t use chi in return…

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Hi Paul,
I’m no WC historian but I’d venture to say WC was developed to kick some Manchu a** as quickly and easily as possible by any means neccessary, as it usually is the case in any revolutionary struggle against an oppressor.

4

what is the original meaning and purpose of WC

same as any other honest fighting system to kill and not be killed

problem starts when the fighters stop fighting , the technicians and scholars , and historians
step in with there protractors and theories and analyze it to death , then the add in there family names and ego’s .
so now it’s personal ,
so there begins the fragmentation of a the honest core into sub systems , and a ton of people trying to step on one and other to get the imaginary pot of gold .

if we were still having to fight for our lives on a daily bases , all this noise would end .
the fighters would again fight
the historians would run back into there libraries
and the scholars feeling to important to sacrifice there lives for anything would retreat back to whence they came .

and the clarity of kill or be killed would once again be the sole reason .

5

it’s interesting that killing as a reason for a style is brought up. One thing I always thought (perhaps wrongly) was that wing chun was quite a peaceful art. Other arts had their poison hand/black hand/bone breaking/choke out/etc techniques to maim and kill opponents.

What tools/techniques in wing chun are meant for these purposes? Perhaps a knee break here and a throat strike there, but overall am I wrong when I say some other systems out there seem much more devoted to this task?

To me, wing chun is like TKD…defense but not vicious.

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"Self-defence is only an illusion, a dark cloak beneath which lurks a razor-sharp dagger waiting to be plunged into the first unwary victim.
"Whoever declares that any weapon manufactured today,
whether it be a nuclear missile or a .33 special, is created for self-defence should look a little more closely at his own image in the mirror. Either he is a liar or is deceiving himself.
"Wing Chun Kung Fu is a very sophisticated weapon; nothing else. It is a science of combat, the intent of which is the total incapacitation of an opponent. It is straightforward, efficient and deadly. If you’re looking to learn self-defence, don’t study wing chun. It would be better for you to master the art of invisibility. "

  • Wong Shun Leung
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Gotta go with ernie on this one

wing chun isn’t aikido

At least not the way i have been taught it and practice it.

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Wing Chun, the Woman’s Art

I don’t know about DNA, but from my vantage point I see women’s fingerprints all over it. (Despite a lot of tough guys trying persistently to smudge them off, LOL.) It’s obvious I’m in a severe minority on this one, anymore. (sic)

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
9

I’m with Phil on this…The original purpose was to kill the Manchurian invaders and take back their country.

Now how about this: The main THRUST of wing chun was to develop the ability to use the BUTTERFLY SWORDS against the weaponized Manchu army…and therefore the forms, principles, strategies, and techniques, Wooden Dummy set..yes, even chi sao…

were PRIMARILY…(although not exclusively)…designed for combat with the swords.

Just my own theory…

10

“Self-defence is only an illusion, a dark cloak beneath which lurks a razor-sharp dagger waiting to be plunged into the first unwary victim.”

If that guy is going to plunge a dagger into me regardless I’d rather have the choice of knowing some sort of defense

“Whoever declares that any weapon manufactured today,
whether it be a nuclear missile or a .33 special, is created for self-defence should look a little more closely at his own image in the mirror. Either he is a liar or is deceiving himself.”

This makes no sense. I guess cops carry guns not for defensive reasons but to kill :confused:

"Wing Chun Kung Fu is a very sophisticated weapon; nothing else. It is a science of combat, the intent of which is the total incapacitation of an opponent. It is straightforward, efficient and deadly. If you’re looking to learn self-defence, don’t study wing chun. It would be better for you to master the art of invisibility. "

So if wing chun is not for self defense and it’s not for asthetic reasons or exercise like wushu and tai chi are respectively nowadays, then Wong means wing chun is meant to go around kicking people’s asses for no reason? I’m missing something here…

11

I think WC is severely agressive - I personally don’t care for the idea of block-block-block as would befit a defense-oriented style. I’m not completely in the boat that WC only moves forward and never backwards, but I can see how that concept got it’s start. I would think a defensive-oriented style would primarily be interested in breaking contact, not seeking it.

Sifu Parlati,

I’m interested in your theory about WC being oriented toward the use of the knives or swords. Could you please expand a bit on it?

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e.c.
I’m missing something here…

yes you are :slight_smile:

wing chun like all other ‘‘real’’ forms of combat are simply for killing . as hard as that may be for some to stomach

it is a skill not a art
skill can be tested
art is subjective

if you approach wing chun in any other way then a killing system , then you just turning into tai chi or akido , tkd and so on .

it’s not ment for spiritual growth, getting in touch with your inner self ,
these things can be done with out combat skill

or else your local priest would be able to kick mad butt , and the pope oh my god he would be the reincarnation of yip man

the problem is in our society we are no longer allowed to culitivate ‘’ killer instinct ‘’ except for the actual killers out there

so this silly notion of self defense is born to make us feel better about our selves .

it’s socialy accepted

a gun is for killing , when you use it
wing chun can kill when you use it
it’s up to the person

wing chun in it’s most watered down form is still a delivery system to put your fist through some ones face , to pummel another human being this can and though out time has killed people .

what don’t you get

[edited in]
e.c.
Wong means wing chun is meant to go around kicking people’s asses for no reason?

what does the weapon and reason have to do with one and other .
[ Wong means wing chun is meant to go around kicking people’s asses ] the answer to this is yes

reason is based on the individual
a gun has no reason it just is , and when used it kills , it doesnt self defend .

13

My Theory…

The more I look into the forms…especially (although not limited to) Bil Jee; and the more more I look into the Wooden Dummy Sets…the more I see Sword applications…

And sometimes - I see moves that have MORE sword application than empty hand application…

Now put that together with the “history” that I’ve been “taught” (by William Cheung) - and the history that some other wing chun organizations put forth…

That in fact wing chun was meant to be a revolutionary (and therefore military) response by the Hons to the oppression of the Manchus…

and since the Manchus were armed with weapons…

It seems to me that the main thrust of wing chun would naturally be to teach the revolutionaries to fight back with weapons (ie. - the Butterfly Swords).

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Re: The Search for Intelligent Life in WC

Originally posted by PaulH
[B]… I’m again curious at this point if there are such things as “DNA” evidences in the WC forms that points clearly back to that prime cause of all our contentions. Can we lay to rest this year once for all at least this nagging question - what is the original meaning and purpose of WC once upon a time in China?

Regards,
PH [/B]

The original purpose of WC once upon a time in China is to defeat all existing styles using WC principles. WC does not give WC practitioners secret/deadly techniques to defeat the techniques of other styles. Instead, WC principles gives the WC practitioner guidelines on how to defeat his opponents.

The forms of WC (SLT, CK, BJ) are the DNA evidences that we are looking for. These forms don’t look like it can be used for fighting, unlike the forms of Shaolin styles or katas of karate. This is because the WC forms teaches us principles; not specific techniques like other styles.

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Re: Re: The Search for Intelligent Life in WC

Originally posted by Wingman
This is because the WC forms teaches us principles; not specific techniques like other styles.

Good post but,let’s not forget about the attributes that are cultivated by those forms. The strong and mobile stances.The heavy hands and relaxed arms.The elbow force.The short power.The body unity of Chum Kiu. All of this made alive with Chi Sau and various sparring drills.

IMHO,the system is more intelligent than most of it’s practitioners!..

:wink:

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Wing Chun teaches us principles AND techniques…like just about every other martial art there is.

If you want to say that the principles and techniques are more involved and scientific than most other styles…that’s fine.

But to deny the techniques AS CONSCIOUSLY PLANNED - to be part of the system…

IS TO IGNORE THE OBVIOUS.

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old jong sez:

IMHO,the system is more intelligent than most of it’s practitioners

you can say that again…

Ok,IMHO,the system is more intelligent than most of it’s practitioners

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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Wing Chun teaches us principles AND techniques…like just about every other martial art there is.

Agree. WC teaches us principles AND techniques.

If you want to say that the principles and techniques are more involved and scientific than most other styles…that’s fine.

OK

But to deny the techniques AS CONSCIOUSLY PLANNED - to be part of the system…

IS TO IGNORE THE OBVIOUS.

Yes, techniques are part of the system. WC techniques are the tools; while WC principles are the guidelines on how to defeat the opponent. So the WC practitioner has the freedom to choose what appropriate tools he will use to defeat his opponent.

So how does he know which is the appropriate tool to use against a particular opponent in a given situation?

Answer: By using WC principles as his guide.

As an analogy, WC principles are the “plans”; WC techniques are the “tools” and YOU (generic you) are the “building materials” to build a house.

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I am into history. Its kinda like a hobby of mine. Since I started practicing kung fu, naturally, kung fu history became of more intrest to me. From what I have read and what I have been told here is what I can gather about the historical roots of WC. Granted, different lineages have different versions so what I say is not exact, its not 100% accurate, it is just what I have gathered. Your sifu may tell you different.

Back during the Qing dynasty there was a shaolin temple called siu lam gee (young forest temple). It was burned down by the manchu’s. This was because apparently the emporer saw them do a demonstration and was superbly impressed with their kung fu skills. So he asked them to be warriors for him and train his soldiers. They said no because they were monks and led simple lives. This really ticked off the emporer. So he had the temple burned down. It is said that 5 elders (masters) escaped. One of them was named Ng mui. They all combined what was left of their kung fu and went seperate ways. Ng Mui went to southern china. Now before all this happend Ng had witnessed a snake and crane practioner spar. Inspired by the match she (my family believes Ng was actually a man disguised as a nun, I can’t remember the reason for it however) started to combine both martial arts. Circling motions from the white crane, and straight line strikes from the snake. It is also theorized that WC has some mantis foot work and kicks in it. So she started combining all these techniques together and optimizing them for effeciency. When she was in souther China, she met a woman named Yim Wing Chun. Yim Wing Chun and her father ran a bean curd store (they were merchants of some sort). A local gangster bully guy tried to make Yim marry him by force. She did not love him and did not want to marry him. Later on she met up with Ng who decided to help her, and train her in this new style she had been developing. Legend says that WC was streamlined when Ng trained Yim. Since Yim had a small frame of a woman the kung fu was optimized for her size and developed to be effective with out being extremely strong. She then challenged the bully to a fight saying she was a martial arts master (after only training for 1 year with Ng) and said she would not marry a man who could not beat her in a fight. In the end she beat the crap out of the bully and married the man she really loved. Yim then taught her husband, Leung Bok-Chao. He named the style of kung fu after his wife. Later on Chao taught it to a red boat opera member named, Leung Lan-Kwai (but other legends say he was some type of merchant). This opera group consisted of many martial artists who trained daily in kung fu, acrobatics, etc etc. They just happen to be anti-manchu’s. They were secretly rebelling against their government and wanted to restore the Ming dynasty. Thus the style was originally intended only for people who wanted to restore the Mings. It spread to many revolutionaries and was very effective for its simplicity and effectiveness. Only three forms made the style easy to learn. It could turn whole villiages into make decent warriors in 6 months training. It was passed down in secret for many years after that until Yip Man started teaching it openly in the 1950’s.

I have left a lot of stuff out because its really too much to post. So basically you can say that WC is one of the last shaolin arts. It combines snake and crane boxing along with some mantis kicks. Of course like I said before this is all debateable and This is just from what I have read. There are many different versions of what I have posted.

To answer your question about how deadly wing chun is, well its very deadly. Its an assasins art. Designed to kill quickly and effectively. I also believe it is an art. I hope none of you ever have to kill anyone using your wing chun. In the world today there is really no place for a fighter. Even in the military you are more than likely just going to bomb your enemy and shoot them with guns than use your wing chun training. So I would say nowadays it is more intended for self defense and not for just killing. However, just remember you are learning something designed to kill. You should be taught that your mindset is not to kill. In my opinion if you have that mindset you are discracing the art.

This post may not be 100% accurate due to fact that there are tons of different versions of the history.

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Originally posted by Gangsterfist
…To answer your question about how deadly wing chun is, well its very deadly. Its an assasins art. Designed to kill quickly and effectively. I also believe it is an art. I hope none of you ever have to kill anyone using your wing chun. In the world today there is really no place for a fighter. Even in the military you are more than likely just going to bomb your enemy and shoot them with guns than use your wing chun training. So I would say nowadays it is more intended for self defense and not for just killing. However, just remember you are learning something designed to kill. You should be taught that your mindset is not to kill. In my opinion if you have that mindset you are discracing the art.

Very good post. Although I don’t agree with some of the historical accounts, I definitely agree with the second to the last paragraph.

My teacher constantly reminds us of a Buddhist proverb:

“Avoid rather than subdue. Subdue rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. Kill only when justified. All life is precious and can never be replaced.”