The Search for Intelligent Life in WC

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]Wing Chun teaches us principles AND techniques…like just about every other martial art there is.

If you want to say that the principles and techniques are more involved and scientific than most other styles…that’s fine.

But to deny the techniques AS CONSCIOUSLY PLANNED - to be part of the system…
[/B]

I have a slightly different perspective on it. (But what’s new, LOL.) I perceive Wing Chun is a set of tightly integrated principles and system of movement, packaged within a concise and minimal suite of sets and exercises for transmission through time and generations.

Only ostensibly is Wing Chun a series of techniques, the deeper purpose of which is to embody and illustrate its principles and nature of movement, and to serve as a learning aid.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
22

KJ-
a good perspective to have in the midst of the noise, technique
without principles and the general macho that is often the case
in martial arts.
joy

23

Techniques without Principles ?

Who said anything about that ?

24

Originally posted by kj
[B]

Only ostensibly is Wing Chun a series of techniques, the deeper purpose of which is to embody and illustrate its principles and nature of movement, and to serve as a learning aid.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo [/B]

This means that we (In Wing Chun),have the privilege to “create” our own personnal “fighting style”,based on the principles and attributes of Wing Chun.Everybody can make use of his own forte as developped in forms, Chi Sau and various sparring drills.
This is rarely seen in martial arts (If any other M.A. propose this aspect at all!)

It could also be taught in a more “Karateish” way!!!..With predetermined moves against predetermined attacks,for a more rapid results style but ,IMO,the limits of this approach would be rapidly dealed with and would not bring the student very deep in the system. This approach should at best be considered as a drill section in a more complete Wing Chun practice session.

25

How do things evolve in nature?

Did a group of 5 Elder Aliens land on Earth and create the human race? Possible, but not likely. Probably, we evolved from previous forms of life as they adapted to conditions.

Did a group of 5 Elder Shaolin meet in a Hall and create WCK? Possible, but not likely. Probably, WCK evolved from previous forms of TCMA as it adapted to conditions.

Were the Manchurians part of these conditions? Certainly, but the Manchurians were not cartoon serial villans with darker skin and maniacal laughter. They were, in actual fact, some of the better governors China ever saw, who helped the population greatly. Did they commit atrocities? Sure, but so did previous Han governments. Did the Chinese not want to overthrow ‘foreign’ government? Sure, but like most peoples at most times, what they really wanted was food, shelter, and a chance at life (which was often as threatened by Han bandits, landowners, and rebels as it was by Manchu or government types).

All the legends are fun and rich and glamorous and romantic, and like Bruce Lee have commerical appeal and help to inspire and motivate, but I think most of us are no longer so naive that we take them as anything more than symbol and allegory, and the same kind of archetypal story system that gave us Hercules and King Arthur and Hagen Daas (no, it ain’t really German ;))

So, where else to look?

Since there has thusfar been presented no evidence of WCK prior to the red junk, we can look there. What types of MA were on the red junk? What type of people? What was their life like? What would they need?

Necessity leads development.

Why do we not find any WCK anywhere else than from the red junk? Different need lead to different development. But why do we find so many things that are similar? Similar ingrediants, different combination/distillation.

Once we understand WCK is not apart from nature, everything else falls into place.

26

“there was a shaolin temple called siu lam gee”

There wasn’t a Shaolin Temple called Siu Lam Gee, “Siu Lam” is just how you pronounce the Mandarin “Shao Lin” in Cantonese, and “Gee” is how you prounce “Si”. The characters are the same, as is the meaning “Young Forest Temple”, and refer to the monastary atop Song Shan, in Henan province.

If you’re interested in history, I would recommend works by scholars, which respectfully, yet quickly, disprove most modern fables. There are some references here:

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=229

27

WC is full of techniques. Every movement in the forms has at least one or more applications. Not to mention the prinicpals of wing chun. I have studied several martial arts. WC has more technical jargin, and maxims that any other style I have personally taken.

If something comes in, invite it.
If something leaves, escort it out.
If loss of contact happens, rush in.

I just wanted to say that don’t get the illusion that wing chun is not a killing art. It was designed that way. We, the artist, that practices it and passes it on from generation to generation puts their own perspective on it. Changing a few things here and there to improve the style to their body, strength, speed, size, etc etc. Which is why there are so many lineages of Wing Chun practitioners. It is the practitioner’s mindset which makes WC what it is. Today, it looks to me more geared self defense. Back during the revolution it looked like a pure killing art. Biu jee had a saying that followed it once. It was said Bui Jee does not go outside of class. Meaning a few things. That is was not meant to be taught to outsiders, that it was not meant to be used outside of class, or that outside of class it should not be discussed. Of course any MA is viewed on what your perception of it is. That is why I know that I am responsible for the techniques used that I have learned in a fight situation. I don’t want to go to jail for killing some guy at a bar who starts a fight with me because I smiled at his girlfriend. That is maybe why its not so much a killing art nowadays. Of course that all depends on the practitioner. I am sure there is someone out there that may want to kill the drunk guy who starts fights with people.

28

That was just one version of the history I have read. Like I posted earlier there are so many many versions, and since chinese history was not written for so many years its really hard to prove what stories are true.

I could post many other versions of the history which I have read, but that would take up tons of space. I find it interesting so I read it. Just take into your mind that each version you read is probably not 100% true. I think that most of what I posted earlier was from, Complete Wing chun. Its a book about basic histories, techniques, and differences of wing chun lineages. That is also where I picked up the spellings.

Thanks for the link rene. It was very interesting. However, is there a place where everyone cites their sources? How do I know how much of it is reasearched and how much based off legend?

29

Wing chun “history” involves for the most part reshuffling and reading tea leaves. Reverse fortune telling. Bits and pieces of insights and otherwise stories- new and old.

There wont even be a reasonable agreement on how many people really know wing chun knife usage today— let alone what happened yesterday.

30

It is just an ordinary APPLE computer Garage Story.

Old Miu Soon did his experiment with different design.

Give his formular to Yee Kung.

Yee Kung Passed to his Daughter in Law. Living in Silicon Valey with the start up.

The Daughter in Law passed it out to those soap opera stars while in Bevely Hill with his wife’s name. Similar to starting a company with wife’s name. A romance story in LA.

Then, the people in the coorporation grow more and more.. Then they decide to use Standford university’s, HP.,… for makerting.

so, some call it STANDFORD apple. Some call it HP apple ok IPOT… Some just call it Apple from Cupertino.

Those who trying to use the name of STANDFORD university to makert. advertise that is the best technology from Standford to kick IBMASS. …Even thought they don’t have a PHD diploma from Standford …

APPLE is just an APPLE created in Cupertino’s Garrage, ok Tofu Shop. Can’t take the reality? OK Go to STandford University Take some pictures . Some go to Cupertino and Work for Apple to check out the garage.

And Some San Jose mecury news reporter Like Rene :smiley: Running around from Standford , to Silicon Valey, To LA, To universal studio to write a complete APPLE.. start up story. :smiley:

The inteligent in life? If you don’t like what is reality, make a story and replace it. Attract fans who likes your story. and you will the the TRUTH. See, Some love APPLE Some Love IBM. That is just a creation of inteligent. :smiley:

I must be drunk now. But I am now in reality sitting inside Palo Alto’s Standford Library. :smiley: Thus, I know you are not in Standford. hahhahahaha :smiley:

31

Gangsterfist - If they don’t cite sources you personally can independantly investigate and confirm, treat it as legend and take it with a grain of salt.

Joy is correct

Hendrik is apples.

32

I have thought along the lines of what UW was saying for a long time. You can’t really train the blades “live,” so the empty hand stuff helps you. We discussed this in an earlier thread.old thread

33

My thanks to the informative inputs so far in this thread. I read them all with much interest, appreciation and humor. Most of the “evidences” or perhaps conjectures presented so far are rather external in their sources which bring me back to this old perenial thought, i.e., what if the early pioneers or founders decided to leave tantalizing clues, recognizable patterns, or specific trademark signatures inside the WC forms so that the later WC descendants can have a means to trace back to the actual ideas that sparked the WC revolution in the feudal Chinese religious and martial art landscape- a reasonable safeguard against too much deviations from its original intended purposes. This bring me back to forms as the only hard-cored evidences that we all share and have much in common with relative few minor deviations. Are we still clueless so far with regard to their historical message packed inside the bottle of WC forms? Is it a buddhist message of finding balance in an imbalanced world, or is it a Chinese renaissance of MA with the new central emphasis on man? The long way home … It would be tragic in my view if we still yet don’t know our history and what give birth to WC in the first place.

Regards,
PH

34

One Question for Sifu Parlati,

What good are the Butterfly Swords against someone using a Spear to simply poke and prod you to death from 6-7 feet away? Are they trained to hack up the spear as it enters their space, like a wood chipper?

One more question, how does one Chi Sao while holding two swords?

Just wondering,

Steve

35

I think that the legends of WC are probably exaggerated. I have read some interesting and funny stories about WC. There was a famous fighter who fought in full contact matches and had over 100 confirmed wins. He was a WC practioner, and he basically only used 2 moves. Qwan sao and chain punch. I read another story about a WC practioner that would always run around their opponet until they were facing the opponet’s exact center (thier torso). Apparently the never saw the concept of attacking the center from an angle. I found that one pretty funny. Apparently the world record for punchers/second is like 6 or 8. Its a wing chun practioner who holds the record. This of course is debatable, because what someone considers to be a punch someone else may not.

The legends made it through hundreds of years. One thing I like about practicing wing chun, is that I feel I am apart of one larger thing beyond just MA training. According to one stastic I read, the Yip Man lineage has over 1 million practioners world wide. Thats amazing how fast it has grown if you think about it. Wing Chun was not openly taught to just anyone until the 1950’s.

What you gain from WC depends on what you take in from it, and what your sifu teaches you.

When you get right down to it. WC is something to do. I find it fun to practice and learn. If I am really bored, I do form work. Its something I can enjoy and spend free time on, kind of like a hobby I guess you could say.

36

Steve, you can do it, you just need a lot of conditioning :slight_smile:

37

Quote:

‘According to one stastic I read, the Yip Man lineage has over 1 million practioners world wide. Thats amazing how fast it has grown if you think about it. Wing Chun was not openly taught to just anyone until the 1950’s.’

In my view this has negative as well as positive aspects. The rapid spread of ‘commercialised’ wing chun via underqualified, overmarketed teachers has meant that a lot of important technical detail has been lost and a ‘blind leading the blind’ type scenario now prevails in many places. Of course there will always be cowboys who turn ‘simple things into deep mysteries’ in order to fool innocent students who see the potential of Wing Chun but who dont know any better. However it is up to those who have been taught the good stuff to maintain high standards and not to prostitute their art for the sake of money, prestige or fame.

Sorry for the rant, just feeling particuarly self righteous today:p

Ill get off my soap box now…

38

Rene,

Are you absolutely positively sure there was no Southern Shaolin Temple? I remember reading that the Chinese government found some ruins or some type of evidence of the Southern Shaolin. Were they wrong?

39

Da_moose: I’ve seen the swords vs spear in articles and books, you try to control the spear with both swords as you slide up the pole, eating up the distance with advancing footwork until you chop their hands off. We have a couple double-arm shapes in Wing Chun that will help you to control the spear. I don’t have significant weapons experience myself, however.

40

what if the early pioneers or founders decided to leave tantalizing clues, recognizable patterns, or specific trademark signatures inside the WC forms so that the later WC descendants can have a means to trace back to the actual ideas--------

you mean apple right?
that has been dig out all you can traced . but it is from cupertino, san jose not from stanford.

apple founders are no standford phd. but uc berkery master. :smiley:

This bring me back to forms as the only hard-cored evidences that we all share and have much in common with relative few minor deviations. Are we still clueless so far with regard to their historical message packed inside the bottle of WC forms? ------

one can see the hardcore form of early apple computer model in Frys electronics sunnyvale. for free. all the clue is there. no standford parts thought. the message is garage, hard work, creativity :smiley:

Is it a buddhist message of finding balance in an imbalanced world, or is it a Chinese renaissance of MA with the new central emphasis on man? The long way home … It would be tragic in my view if we still yet don’t know our history and what give birth to WC in the first place.---------

I told you apple is real clear it is from cupertinon garage. free in Frys electronics for brows. but, the standford apple will not like to accept it. the hp apple will not like to see it. … on and on…

balance? man heaven earth? hey man the ulimate is silence. the apple hit newton’s head in silence… hahahaha

apple is so tangible. but we want to call it gravitation force. standford apple… what ever.
case has been solved many moon ago and now it progress much further---- chocolate and carmel color apple with sticky mp3 source and ice cool spiky Jing color can already be produce :smiley:

for all those theory and idealism with lots of fans. none can reproduce apple because the is no standford or hp parts in the apple but National semiconductor’s and fairchild parts.

even bad news is those standford apple is looking at astrology and theather department pioners in stanford. where else apple is build by EE major in cupertino. hahahaha what a wonderful world it is. whatva wonderful world…

“What A Wonderful World”

Don’t know much about history
don’t know much biology
Don’t know much about a science book
don’t know much about the CHINESE I took
But I do know that I love you
and I know that if you love me, too
what a wonderful world this would be

Don’t know much about geography
don’t know much trigonometry
Don’t know much about algebra
don’t know what a slide rule is for
But I did know that one and one is two
and if this one could be with you
what a wonderful world this would be

Now I don’t claim to be an ‘A’ student
but I’m tryin’ to be
For maybe be being an ‘A’ student from standford, baby
I can win your love for me
:smiley: :smiley: