three basic dna of red boat era wck siu lin tau

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238209] one must go through structure to flow. Otherwise one cannot get to flow.[/QUOTE]

Hendrrik, I agree with you 100% on this.

If you are

  • a beginner and when you punch, your back foot move, you are doing wrong.
  • “not” a beginner and when you punch, your back foot “does not” move, you are also doing wrong.

Static is beginner level training, mobility is advance level training. Many people try to jump from stage 1 to stage 2 too quick which is wrong. Many people try to stay in stage 1 for the rest of his life which is also wrong.

John,

Agree.

Simple as a punch can tell lots of things.

This diagram is the graphic explanation of
The yik kam slt kuen kuit

Yik Kam Wing Chun, Siu Nin Tau set Writing Part 1

Y4
The bending power of the right heel tightly store in the reverse direction.

(Full Kuit is now code in Y1…Yx for onvernient reference. Y4 is the fourth line under the description of ygkym section. On dealing with force flow )

Don’t let the loose standing and no deep bending knees , no strong lock hip , no rooting looks cheat you.

It is using a virtue center at the feet ground contact instead of the hip. And a mirror image force projection to balance the up rising force or action reaction force.

Contact http://www.newmartialhero.it/
If you like to get the full translate kuit , history, art, infor. Last week an article has been published in Italy Wing chun magazine .

One doesn’t expect female to root like man.

Most Australians would agree.

[QUOTE=anerlich;1238246]Most Australians would agree.[/QUOTE]

I wasn’t going to touch that one! But I was waiting for one of you Aussies to chime in. :wink:

Thanks Hendrik! You last couple of responses helped to clarify several things for me.

Wck does No side way .
Thus , wck is using its unique strategy, momentum, and force handling.

Ok. I think I am following your point now. I’m picturing Wong Shun Leung and Phillip Bayer in the way they go directly in and avoid “chasing hands” or even sticking as in Chi Sao when possible.

In a coil sprint action and reaction happen in the same time, when you press a spring, action force, the coil spring push back at you, reaction force.

Not exactly the true physics of it, but I get your point from the analogy.

[B]Wck idea is center line capture/strike/control and nulify has to happen at the same instance otherwise is one step late..

Different strategy[/B]

Yes, I see what you are saying now

Biu Jee set is for the third momentum of Wck, the recovery momentum. To recover means one has already lost the center and structure. Those no longer in ones possession already, one needs to recover in that situation.

This fits with the idea I was taught that it is for “emergency situations.” Having lost the center and structure would count as an “emergency.” But thinking of it as recovering momentum does help clarify that.

IMHO, it is more a force pair balancing on the run, then rooting as in the southern fist .

I think I understand what you are saying, but I’ll have to think about that one and work on it.

Because what he shared decade ago is the basic of using body integration , some wcner at that time is using only arm but no body integration, and what I show is a step beyond the body structure , time to get into Jin flow and momentum. Where body integration and structure need to turn into dynamic flow.
To be able to flow, one needs dynamic . To learn dynamic one needs to make the structure alive. And no longer hold on to structure.

That makes better sense now. So you are saying that it’s not that the structural elements are unimportant, just that what you are talking about is the next step beyond those structural elements.

one must go through structure to flow. Otherwise one cannot get to flow.

[B]Rooting as most think or in souhtern fist is not force balancing but holding and sustaining.

Force path and force flow play needs a loose and light body. As in taiji , it says, it is so light that it will not hold an extra weight of a feather. It is a different paradigm .[/B]

Ok. I think we are getting somewhere now! :slight_smile:

We know today that when the three set system created in 1855. Wck go through a quick fighter training cultural change. We know the post 1855 cut away lots of chinese body of the art develoment and focus into get some one to the battle field quick culture . now 160 years later it has its pro and con. We now try to present both the pre and post , but things will not happen over night. And some will see it different then their Wck because Wck does evolve. And 160 years is a long time .

Yes, this makes good sense from an historical viewpoint. After 1855 a lot of what you are talking about was likely lost as they “ramped up” the training program to make it faster and more efficient in a shorter timeframe. But what they were doing after 1855 stilled worked, or they wouldn’t have done it! So you have to be careful in how you present your material. Its not that what most people are doing is wrong. Its just that what you are working on could give most people’s Wing Chun a “new dimension”. It seems like it truly is a step in the direction of making Wing Chun more of a “soft” or “internal” art. This likely won’t appeal to a lot of people, but it is still a valid and valuable way of doing Wing Chun. Convincing people that it is a “better” way will be difficult. This is going to appeal more to people that have been doing Wing Chun for a long time and already sense that there is a further “dimension” beyond the typical “muscular” approach. Heck, I’m not there yet! But at least I can now get a sense of what you are talking about. Thanks!

[QUOTE=KPM;1238255]I wasn’t going to touch that one! But I was waiting for one of you Aussies to chime in. ;)[/QUOTE]

Aussie number two chiming in!

Wck does No side way .
Thus , wck is using its unique strategy, momentum, and force handling.

Ok. I think I am following your point now. I’m picturing Wong Shun Leung and Phillip Bayer in the way they go directly in and avoid “chasing hands” or even sticking as in Chi Sao when possible. --------------

Yes, if you take a look here

Start 4.24 to 4.40 see how Jerry capture the center of the Hsing Yee opponent. That is , using center capture center uniqueness. The hand doesn’t goes out side the triangle , many think Hsing Yee is the mother art of Wck. Well, evidence show they have different DNA and hsing Yee is not Wck lau choong sau or remain in center hand. Due to that Wck generate power, handling momentum different then hsing Yee .

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=91ythWqde-c&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D91ythWqde-c

So, things might look similar in different style , but those who know the DNA is doing a unique art.

From this wck momentum DNA, one knows, if one practices of set as snt, not following this but go side way. It is an evolve version.

Wck doesn’t do the following even though the following attack center too.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=PAiAnMFtCxU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPAiAnMFtCxU

Biu Jee set is for the third momentum of Wck, the recovery momentum. To recover means one has already lost the center and structure. Those no longer in ones possession already, one needs to recover in that situation.

This fits with the idea I was taught that it is for “emergency situations.” Having lost the center and structure would count as an “emergency.” But thinking of it as recovering momentum does help clarify that. -------

Emergency means lost the handling , may be via mistake, surprise , accident…etc recovery means to abandon and return to center . Ie, at emergency the the army has lost its based.

IMHO, it is more a force pair balancing on the run, then rooting as in the southern fist .

I think I understand what you are saying, but I’ll have to think about that one and work on it. ------

Understood.
You need to develop your Jin path and Jin flow, otherwise you don’t have tools to implement it. A different mechanics.

Because what he shared decade ago is the basic of using body integration , some wcner at that time is using only arm but no body integration, and what I show is a step beyond the body structure , time to get into Jin flow and momentum. Where body integration and structure need to turn into dynamic flow.
To be able to flow, one needs dynamic . To learn dynamic one needs to make the structure alive. And no longer hold on to structure.

That makes better sense now. So you are saying that it’s not that the structural elements are unimportant, just that what you are talking about is the next step beyond those structural elements. ------

Yes. Get into the resonance of the six core elements dynamically . So one can handle dynamic momentum.

As John point out one must not stop at structure step.

one must go through structure to flow. Otherwise one cannot get to flow.

[B]Rooting as most think or in souhtern fist is not force balancing but holding and sustaining.

Force path and force flow play needs a loose and light body. As in taiji , it says, it is so light that it will not hold an extra weight of a feather. It is a different paradigm .[/B]

Ok. I think we are getting somewhere now! :slight_smile: -------

Great!

We know today that when the three set system created in 1855. Wck go through a quick fighter training cultural change. We know the post 1855 cut away lots of chinese body of the art develoment and focus into get some one to the battle field quick culture . now 160 years later it has its pro and con. We now try to present both the pre and post , but things will not happen over night. And some will see it different then their Wck because Wck does evolve. And 160 years is a long time .

Yes, this makes good sense from an historical viewpoint. After 1855 a lot of what you are talking about was likely lost as they “ramped up” the training program to make it faster and more efficient in a shorter timeframe. But what they were doing after 1855 stilled worked, or they wouldn’t have done it! -------

Correct.

However, one issue exist after 160 years of evolution, Wck has combine other southern art. For example we talk about the Wck uniqueness as in above Jerry Vesus hsing Yee or Wsl clip. That is accord to 1855. But how many recognize this today? Instead of practicing southern fist fusion Wck?

So, there are the pre 1855 body of art and post 1855 application which are not common to some wcners today.

So you have to be careful in how you present your material. Its not that what most people are doing is wrong. Its just that what you are working on could give most people’s Wing Chun a “new dimension”. -----

Correct.
An some Wck lineages still have the material i brought up.
I am not exclusive.
But without these core element brought up, we will evolve into different direction and lost the core soon.

It seems like it truly is a step in the direction of making Wing Chun more of a “soft” or “internal” art. This likely won’t appeal to a lot of people, but it is still a valid and valuable way of doing Wing Chun. Convincing people that it is a “better” way will be difficult. This is going to appeal more to people that have been doing Wing Chun for a long time and already sense that there is a further “dimension” beyond the typical “muscular” approach. Heck, I’m not there yet! But at least I can now get a sense of what you are talking about. Thanks! --------

You are welcome,

Actually, I am just telling the story “once upon a time Wck” and let people take or drop . Every one has their way. And free to choose their own direction. But the info has to get out so those who look for it knows how the grandparents are like.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238265]Yes, if you take a look here

Start 4.24 to 4.40 see how Jerry capture the center of the Hsing Yee opponent. That is , using center capture center uniqueness. The hand doesn’t goes out side the triangle , many think Hsing Yee is the mother art of Wck. Well, evidence show they have different DNA and hsing Yee is not Wck lau choong sau or remain in center hand. Due to that Wck generate power, handling momentum different then hsing Yee .

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=91ythWqde-c&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D91ythWqde-c[/QUOTE]

If achieving this kind of wing chun is what you are talking about, why go to all the trouble of energy flow paths, history, yik kam transform and all of the other stuff you have presented? This is just regular wsl wing chun done well.

That clip is an example of the Wck momentum DNA.to contrast why Wck is not spm or hsing Yee or taiji or hung gar…

As for how effective, efficient, to handle the power generation , the dynamic and the details is another story. That is the story of the body of he art. Watching YouTube is one thing to get the body to do it is another thing.

Wck has three basic DNA , momentum, body, and force flow which support each others.
One needs to know the history and dna to know what , how, and why the sets are the way it is.

Otherwise, I might do southern mantis with wing chun hand shape such as tan sau, or doing wing Chun with southern manis body. I might practice snt with bak mei way.

Analogy to the Olympic swimmer, who swim free style, I swim free style too but how well my body is condition to swim in that particular style is another story. Also, I need to know if I really doing free style, thus I need to know the history and DNA and lots of details of the free style.

To just swim is one thing. To master a particular style of swimming is a different story.

Philip is doing great in this clip, but you see the students body and force flow breaking down. So, not every one can be Philip just learning the Wck momentum from him. To prepare or develop the body and force flow is another story. Sure , some one might say, they can use southern mantis way of body, but then will that body fit the Wck momentum DNA?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=47ZVikbcYlU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D47ZVikbcYlU

Between black and white there is a rain bow spectrum of color , life is not as simply as it looks if one wants to see things clearly.

[QUOTE=guy b.;1238269]If achieving this kind of wing chun is what you are talking about, why go to all the trouble of energy flow paths, history, yik kam transform and all of the other stuff you have presented? This is just regular wsl wing chun done well.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238273]That clip is an example of the Wck momentum DNA.to contrast why Wck is not spm or hsing Yee or taiji or hung gar…

As for how effective, efficient, to handle the power generation , the dynamic and the details is another story. That is the story of the body of he art. Watching YouTube is one thing to get the body to do it is another thing.

Wck has three basic DNA , momentum, body, and force flow which support each others.
One needs to know the history and dna to know what , how, and why the sets are the way it is.

Otherwise, I might do southern mantis with wing chun hand shape such as tan sau, or doing wing Chun with southern manis body. I might practice snt with bak mei way.

Analogy to the Olympic swimmer, who swim free style, I swim free style too but how well my body is condition to swim in that particular style is another story. Also, I need to know if I really doing free style, thus I need to know the history and DNA and lots of details of the free style.

To just swim is one thing. To master a particular style of swimming is a different story.

Philip is doing great in this clip, but you see the students body and force flow breaking down. So, not every one can be Philip just learning the Wck momentum from him. To prepare or develop the body and force flow is another story. Sure , some one might say, they can use southern mantis way of body, but then will that body fit the Wck momentum DNA?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=47ZVikbcYlU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D47ZVikbcYlU

Between black and white there is a rain bow spectrum of color , life is not as simply as it looks if one wants to see things clearly.[/QUOTE]

So what are you saying? Jerry has it or not? You use him as an example..is this the wing chun you want to see or is it not? If not then what are you talking about exactly when you use him as an example?

Your clip doesn’t work btw

Jerry is showing wing chun strategy and momentum DNA.

However, there are layers under what one sees, instead of asking Jerry has it or not, ask " can I do what Jerry is doing, " and start pealing onion on how involve is a look simple action. If one don’t go through that seeing layer and layer behind it. Then , one is like watching Bruce lee movie, and it is like mimic Bruce lee side kick to take a picture. But really doesn’t know what Bruce really has behind that simple sidekick.

But if you just want to learn a few move and use it to sparing , please ignore my posts. Because I am focus in the art of Wck 1850 instead of teaching how to fight. Those are different focus. It is like study in a physical education degree and go to a gym to learn to fight. You don’t need to know what I am talking about.

I just test it Clip works fine.

[QUOTE=guy b.;1238280]So what are you saying? Jerry has it or not? You use him as an example..is this the wing chun you want to see or is it not? If not then what are you talking about exactly when you use him as an example?

Your clip doesn’t work btw[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238284]But if you just want to learn a few move and use it to sparing , please ignore my posts. Because I am focus in the art of Wck 1850 instead of teaching how to fight. Those are different focus. It is like study in a physical education degree and go to a gym to learn to fight. You don’t need to know what I am talking about.[/QUOTE]

This is really the crux of the matter isn’t it?

Authority through intellectual understanding just doesn’t cut it with physical pursuits.

There are after all, nine (I think at last count) different types of intelligence, one of which relates directly to movement and bodily control. Intellectual understanding (alone) isn’t better or even preferred with MA where a more visceral intelligence is paramount and the reason why there are so many calls to see something in action against an opponent if one is not in a position of having a direct opportunity to feel it.

While I find much of what you write thought provoking I would suggest you’re alienating the very audience you are wishing to reach with this type of statement.

Dave

What I present is not as what you describe .
Got nothing to do with

Authority through intellectual understanding just doesnt cut it with physical pursuits.

If you want to learn just how to drive. You don’t need to know engineering details of how the car design. That is what I am presenting. There is no need to force every one to learn engineering details . But if they are interested they can join.

Instead of what you are thinking.

[QUOTE=Ozzy Dave;1238287]This is really the crux of the matter isnt it?

Authority through intellectual understanding just doesnt cut it with physical pursuits.

There are after all, nine (I think at last count) different types of intelligence, one of which relates directly to movement and bodily control. Intellectual understanding (alone) isnt better or even preferred with MA where a more visceral intelligence is paramount and the reason why there are so many calls to see something in action against an opponent if one is not in a position of having a direct opportunity to feel it.

While I find much of what you write thought provoking I would suggest youre alienating the very audience you are wishing to reach with this type of statement.

Dave[/QUOTE]

KPM,

enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3keW8Sc9t8

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238288]If you want to learn just how to drive. You don’t need to know engineering details of how the car design.[/QUOTE]

Agreed, not in an intellectual sense that’s true but the reverse is also pertinent to the discussion - knowing the engineering details doesn’t prove you know (or can advise on) how to drive.

Dave

Agree.

However, what you raise is a different topic. Please start a new thread for that if you like to discuss with those who is interested.

[QUOTE=Ozzy Dave;1238299]Agreed, not in an intellectual sense that’s true but the reverse is also pertinent to the discussion - knowing the engineering details doesn’t prove you know (or can advise on) how to drive.

Dave[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238284]Jerry is showing wing chun strategy and momentum DNA.

However, there are layers under what one sees, instead of asking Jerry has it or not, ask " can I do what Jerry is doing, " and start pealing onion on how involve is a look simple action. If one don’t go through that seeing layer and layer behind it. Then , one is like watching Bruce lee movie, and it is like mimic Bruce lee side kick to take a picture. But really doesn’t know what Bruce really has behind that simple sidekick.[/QUOTE]

Do you feel it is necessary to work through the stuff you advocate in order to be able to do what Jerry is doing? Has Jerry done your Yik Kam transform stuff?

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1238288]What I present is not as what you describe .
Got nothing to do with

Authority through intellectual understanding just doesnt cut it with physical pursuits.

If you want to learn just how to drive. You don’t need to know engineering details of how the car design. That is what I am presenting. There is no need to force every one to learn engineering details . But if they are interested they can join.

Instead of what you are thinking.[/QUOTE]

This is not the case. You are presenting mechanics of wing chun which ARE to be used in fighting correct? These things are according to you how you are supposed to do things and you even go so far as to say if you are not doing them then you are not doing wing chun since they are in your words the very DNA of wing chun. You say they define wing chun. Most of your postings eventually get around to how this or that is not wing chun because they do not do things as you believe they should.

You cannot have it both ways where on one hand you say if you are not using these so called engineering details you are not doing wing chun at all and on the other hand say if you are only interested in fighting with your wing chun then you do not need to know the engineering details.

Then you refer to a video where someone is doing something along the lines you refer to in your DNA as an example.

If you are going to put up video after video of you TALKING about how things should be done and post after post of how there is only one right way to do wing chun then you must expect people to want to see these things actually done or actually used. When you tell people that YOU have the real wing chun then you should expect to be called to show it in action.

Videos of people talking, diagrams, historical references and stories, and all that sort of stuff does not persuade me in the least that you or anyone knows what they are talking about. It also doesn’t help when you talk out of both sides of your mouth.