Hey Kathy-Jo

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Originally posted by Vajramusti
Good points David. Contemporary Wing Chun has spread too fast and wide and has less quality control than several other styles.
I would just add that many styles are being subject to this lower quality standard. In this age of fast-food and instant messaging we see a general degradation of quality standards across the board. A Martial Arts school in every strip-mall, right beside the McD’s :wink:

Look at the Bell Curve, as a relative value we will see much more growth in the middle (mediocre) portion than at the high end. IMO, we should not be so suprised.

42

Now in the ring the guy would lose 10 out of 10 times to the BJJ
But in the street there are different factors

This reminded me how effective something that simple can be in the right situation

Now we got a beginner with only Pak-sau knowledge "drop a BJJ guy!..And some are still arguing if Wing Chun can be effective as a self-defense art.
But, life is life and what can you do when your day as come?..(Why worry about what can’t be controled?..)

43

Matrix sez:

Look at the Bell Curve, as a relative value we will see much more growth in the middle (mediocre) portion than at the high end. IMO, we should not be so suprised.

In some fields I dont see a Bell curve…but a fast escaltor from top to bottom.

In sports they used to say- it was the last bastion of excellence-
but these days even that can be creative chemistry.

44

Very interesting posts here.

I would love to get a bit more on all your thoughts on training. The way I see it first you need to identify the area(s) you are training. I was tought to break any MA down into the following areas:

  1. Strength/Conditioning - Push ups, jumping rope, running, circut training. Are you strong enough to perform the task?

  2. Finesse - Technical side. Is the form perfect? Are you centered? etc…

  3. Timing - Are you doing it at the right time… To early, to late & why?

  4. Distance - (often linked with Timing) Do you know when the target is in range? Do you know when the attacker is in his range to hit you? Do you understand the difference between distance to hands, arms, legs, torso, head? Do you know the ways to break/keep distance in your art?

edit: Of course I forgot number 5…

  1. Mind - The mental and emotional states. Are you focused on what you are doing? Are you thinking about what is going on or are you “in the moment”? etc…

Once you know in which area the person is having the problem, then you can set about fixing it. As an instructer/student do you have similar systems?

45

I think the problem is in the old timers teaching methods. Up to the Chi sau stage, everything is very step by step and logical. But for the closing and entering skills and realistic footage of practical application against people who can fight we have little to go on for guidelines. For boxing and Jujitsu everything is out there in books and tapes both the classroom stuff and the real fighting stuff. For Wing Chun that’s missing. Maybe it’s missing because it’s all experience and timing. In a street fight all of the Wing Chun experience, chi sau, forms and theory just culminates into going in with confidence and then “BAM” with one punch the fight is finished. That comes from realistic training and many losses. So what is there to show on a tape?

I always thought Tai Chi had a good training method because they went beyond the pushing hands level with an applications form which slowly got randomized more and more until it was complete freestyle with speed and power. However we see little evidence in this country of Tai Chi’s effectiveness in competition so maybe even that approach has it’s limits because the training method is still Tai Chi fighting against Tai Chi. Eventually you need to go outside of your lineage box if you are interested to understand you lineages strong and weak points.

I think it’s true that most people do practice SLT level stuff all the time even though they have completed all the rest of the system. This is characterized by stationary Chi sau. In Tai Chi this happened also. Before there were many injuries with broken bones, lost teeth and split lips. So then gentlemanly pushing hands was designed to take out the injury factor and make it more enjoyable for the population at large. Real fighting skill as passed down from the stories of old seemed to have disappeared except for a handfull of people who can still use their Tai Chi. The problem in Tai Chi is that there are no good models to go by. No Judo player is impressed with Tai Chi and few Tai Chi people are confident that they can match a good Judo player these days. Perhaps all the beautiful theory doesn’t work but I wouldn’t want to say this to the wrong people in China and end up dead. I have no doubt there are some top fighters in their art.

To me completing the system means really training the ideas of each part of the system. So after the Chum Kiu form is learned you are ready to study the subject of closing with the opponent. Closing or bridging is a subject of study and not just a form. It ocupied a lot of Bruce Lee’s time. I have heard of one European Wing Chun person who concentrated for seven years on this closing aspect. That’s how much time it took to close in on professional level fighters. Conversely a Hung style teacher told me that his master trained three solid years on evading a fast master level closer.

The problem in closing is perfecting the timing. Moving a split second too soon or a split second too late then you get hit. Judging of distance is also very important. Too far and you can never get in. Too close and you will get hit before you can blink. There are no easy ways to train these things without making many mistakes and getting hit. So since that isn’t very enjoyable, most people resort to comfortable Chi sau practice which has a minimum of risk. If you can manage to make someone play your game then you can still win but if not and you haven’t developed Chum Kiu level skills then you are out of luck.

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Interesting observations Tydive. For point #1, unless one has a disability, I believe that most of us already have enough strength and speed to make it all work. Coordination in the key point at this stage, but as with anything, your strength and speed will increase as a byproduct of the training. As for the other points I agree with everything you said.

James

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Jong ,
I have never doubted the wing chun training systems effectiveness , even though many of my post may seem to poke at it’s weakness , I would not be involved in wing chun if it didn’t prove itself to me , why was I a regular guy able to get in front of all those people I sparred and survive , simple my wing chun training , in the beginning I got hit a lot , was it wing chuns fault no it was my lack of skill , I didn’t understand distance and timing , I was to concerned with how I stood and were my hands were I wasn’t relating to the person I was posing fro the person , after I stopped worrying so much and realized getting hit was no big deal I started to move in , first with center punching , the paks ands lops , the applying my triangle and structure to disrupt there body posture and so on I just kept to my concepts and found out why they were so important , even more advanced ideas like proper energy release and from what point of the body you release from and which part, link to achieve this , sure I could do in chi sau and in my forms but doing it and getting the desired effect on a randomly attacking person took and still takes time
The more I stuck to my guns and moved smoothly and naturally the easier things got , the less internal dialogue , just bam go in , feel the timing and go , if something gets in the way cool he just told me all I needed to know .

But I noticed those that didn’t train the way I did , kind of feel back and got stuck , sure there chi sau and structure and power grew but they were clunky when it came time to adapt to a live environment . I watched some seniors that were power houses get in front of guys with good footwork and look off , yet Gary could catch the timing and nail them .

I have pages and pages of notes on all these things and I would sit with Gary and talk to him about it , then I would go work it out , for me it was obvious I had to seek it in the moment and I had to spend as much time in the moment as possible

What defined that moment was that uncomfortable feeling when things were out of control and chaotic , to find my center then and execute with consistency , doesn’t matter if it was a pak , a jab a cross , a sweep throw whatever , to find my center , my balance and maintain it during these moments .

And this will probably go on as long as I train , it is when things feel most alive and honesty rules .

As for the person I trained ,
First he is not a wing Chun student , he is only an outsider training in my attributes class .
Second I think the way I trained him had a lot to do with the results ,
Your welcome to analyze and critique

I taught him the basic mechanics of the pak , then had him work tons of reps with guys that have it down , increasing speed and pressure in a dead pattern
This allowed me to introduce the concepts of center , elbow down , square body ,simultaneous action and straight line , basics

After he picked up the general feel ,

I had him glove up and work it with power and footwork on the mitts

Correcting balance and over commitment

Then I had two guys glove up and one fired jabs and crosses full power full speed to his face and he had to intercept , with 3 timings before , in the middle and off the end of the action , all live with random attacks and live footwork

Then I had him spar the idea were one guy can jab , cross , hook what ever and he could only use a pak sau

He got his a lot but as time went on he got his footwork and timing and was able to hit with power and speed and balance

This took a few sessions that’s it

Sure he has no wing Chun body or structure , he doesn’t want to learn wing Chun

Down the line he probably will he admires it’s effectiveness

But ironically the pak was there for him with out thought

This even caught me off guard a bit

But like I said I’m experimenting we shall see what time will produce .

48

This is a real interesting thread. One thing I have come to my own conclusion about wing chun in reality is that its all conceptual. Wing Chun is an idea of strucutre and effeciency. Sure, things will comprise, break, expand, contract, pluck, push, pull, etc in real combat. Even though the technique may not be there becuase of the situation, the concept of the technique will be. Even though something you may do may not look anything like a pak sao, or a tan sao, the concepts will still be there. At high skill levels you will control your opponet with the least amount of effort. You will do things that you just do, you don’t think about it, you don’t analyze it, you just plain do it. The concepts are there, the technique and execution will come naturally and vary from situation to situation.

Even though this guy ernie trained was not even close to a wing chunner, the concept of the pak sao was there for him. Is that wing chun? I would say it is.

This thread has given me some new work out ideas. I am going to go scribble in my training blog tonight and see if I can’t come up with some new stuff.

49

Originally posted by YongChun
The problem in closing is perfecting the timing. Moving a split second too soon or a split second too late then you get hit. Judging of distance is also very important. Too far and you can never get in. Too close and you will get hit before you can blink. There are no easy ways to train these things without making many mistakes and getting hit.

Sorry for the off topic, but this is one of my favorites.

Here is how I use my internal MA training to deal with exactly that issue. I can feel when someone is in range and respond correctly. No I am not perfect at it, and yes I am willing to demonstrate. (Keep in mind I am recovering from a broken back, so no full contract for at least another year).

This is my “newbie guide to energy work” info so skip to the level you are at… then apply.

First
Get centered. Relax w dynamic tension, fill your center with energy, be balanced etc…

Now rub your hands together, pretend you are holding a ball of energy between your hands. Compress the ball and expand the ball. Feel it. Now make sure your focus is still on the ball of energy in your center. Understand that there is no difference between the balls. Find the connection, of how the energy flows in your body. The feeling of chi is NOT chi, it is just your body reacting to the energy flow. Those who tell you that chi is the heat or whatever are missing the point. You get heat/sensation as a byproduct.

Second
Find a partner (this can be anyone, significant other, child, etc…). Get the ball of energy going till you can feel it strongly, then slowly move it back and forth close to your partners hand (held away from the body). You want to feel for differences in the “pressure” without touching. With practice you will be able to feel when the other persons Chi is touching you, vs when your chi is touching there chi or your chi is touching them.

Third
Start at a distance of 20 feet and with energy up (fill the space around you, classic aura shape, make sure you include the space that goes under the ground where your root is…) slowly approach the person and feel when your energy contacts them. You want to create a very stong “presence” at the limit of your range. Thus you will feel when they are in contact range (don’t forget to go underground). Do the same exercise as in step two, but with your entire body.

Fourth
Be able to change the energy of your center to effect the person. In this step you begin to understand that the only energy that can be in your presence is energy that is already inside you. As Dr Dyer says, what do you get when you squeeze an orange? Orange Juice. Why? Because that is the only thing inside the orange. If you get squeezed (someone applies pressure to you) then whatever comes out has nothing to do with them, but everything to do with you. What this means is that you can send out relaxing energy to have them relax, or create fear, doubt.. any emotion really.

Last
Blend with the energy around you. Allow it to express itself while not changing you. Now you will know what they are going to do as they think it. With your MA training you then choose the correct response. At this point your energy awareness permiates everything around you.

It does take awhile to develop (my last student took 8 years to get to stage 4, but started from zero). However with some basic training you can get a feel for it pretty quick. The nice side of this is that you don’t have to go full contact to get the benefits.

I would love to have Ali chime in on this one. The video on his site where he uses Chi to blow out the candle is beyond anything I can do. I can only effect peoples emotional states and sense intent.

Originally posted by Ernie
What defined that moment was that uncomfortable feeling when things were out of control and chaotic , to find my center then and execute with consistency , doesn’t matter if it was a pak , a jab a cross , a sweep throw whatever , to find my center , my balance and maintain it during these moments .

Exactly.

50

Originally posted by Ernie
I have this totally new guy , ex marine very serious but new , just taught him pak sau a few weeks ago , his black belt BJJ friend was making fun of his choice in training , and tried to surprise him with a attack , this new guy with like no real skill just reacted with a pak but really punched and dropped his BJJ buddy
Now in the ring the guy would lose 10 out of 10 times to the BJJ
But in the street there are different factors
Ernie:
I know most of the high ranking BJJ practitioners in So Calif and I would like to verify this story. What was the BJJ fighter’s name? Please PM it to me if you are not comfortable posting it online.

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Originally posted by Ernie
mixed up the people Kathy that’s Ray’s quote i was responding to;)

Sorry Ern. I confuse easily.

Regards,

  • kj
52

Originally posted by t_niehoff
The link above is a “streetfight” between two untrained women (no one dies in the end, btw – so I guess it wouldn’t be a “real” fight in some people’s book). :wink: Interesting how it looks like Cheung-Boztepe. What do they have in common? They both reflect what a fight looks like. This is what you need to be able to deal with, the environement you’ll find yourself in.

Indeed, the video showed one of many examples of fighting, if of a tame sort in the range of things.

So, KJ, with all your WCK training, could you step in and easily handle with these untrained women?

I don’t make the mistake of presuming anyone is “easy” to handle, trained or untrained. Nor do I over-estimate my own skills; I receive sufficient feedback to keep me appropriately humble in that area.

I don’t know what the phrasing “all your WCK training” is meant to imply. Like anyone, I have only what I have, no more, no less. Some days it serves me better than others. There will always be a long road for improving ahead.

If you think so, then the next step is to go to a gym where some women train and have a go and see if your assessment is correct.

That might be an appropriate next step for you or some others. Given my goals, my constraints, and my values, I am satisfied to obtain feedback for training purposes in challenging yet more moderated venues.

My next step and concern would more likely be along the lines of conferring with their mothers on appropriate moral remediation, lessons in self-control, and serious behavior modification. If patterns of violence or uncontrolled anger continued, or the parties prove themselves to be otherwise incorrigible or persistently irresponsible, my next recommendation for such young ladies would likely involve a reformatory and work therapy until such time as they are no longer a social menace and a danger to themselves.

Regards,

  • kj
53

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Ernie:
I know most of the high ranking BJJ practitioners in So Calif and I would like to verify this story. What was the BJJ fighter’s name? Please PM it to me if you are not comfortable posting it online.

you have been PM’d :smiley:

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The link above is a “streetfight” between two untrained women

Ah, you’ve been looking at those vids advertised in the back pages of FightSport, haven’t you? :wink:

55

Ok called the guy up { marine buddy ] and there was a bit of over zealous embellishment on his part of the story , he didn’t drop he friend , he countered his friends attack and stopped a punch on his face , don’t want to get all the BJJ peoples panties in a bunch =)
Still trying to get his name and see if he is a black belt for you Knife fighter this guy says he doesn’t want to have any issues with his buddy , but I’ll get it from him , better to check my facts ha ha since I ride people so much on stories .
Good call , sometimes we hear what we want to hear =)
But either way he still reacted well [ I hope ] if that part is true , he kind of tripped out when I called him right now ha ha

now all things in the universe can be at peace :smiley:

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Great honesty, gotta respect that…

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Originally posted by Ernie
[B]Jong ,
I have never doubted the wing chun training systems effectiveness , even though many of my post may seem to poke at it’s weakness , I would not be involved in wing chun if it didn’t prove itself to me , why was I a regular guy able to get in front of all those people I sparred and survive , simple my wing chun training , in the beginning I got hit a lot ,
deleted lots-----------------

But ironically the pak was there for him with out thought

This even caught me off guard a bit

But like I said I’m experimenting we shall see what time will produce . [/B]

Hi Ernie,

This is what I call a useful and constructive post since you talk about your experiences, your methods, your failures and your successes. Other people can learn something from these experiences.

However posts that keep harping about everyone’s training methods as being unrealistic and equivalent to dry swimming methods etc. etc. are really of no use to anyone and merely stop most people from getting involved in this forum. So thanks and keep up the good work.

Ray

58

Yes, I agree with your observations Ray. Although it’s necessary to dissect the art apart once in awhile, the opposite is also true to reveal the positives and let others know about it.

James

59

Originally posted by YongChun
However posts that keep harping about everyone’s training methods as being unrealistic and equivalent to dry swimming methods etc. etc. are really of no use to anyone and merely stop most people from getting involved in this forum. So thanks and keep up the good work.

The swimming analogy is a clever way to moderate the forum and it works.

60

Originally posted by sihing
Great honesty, gotta respect that…

Hey it’s what i get from speaking outside of first hand experience , see how quickly ‘‘stories’’ can be born , so it’s good to have checks and balances in place . :smiley:

Ray,
thank you sir :slight_smile:
I tend to have noticed my own slide towards tell people what they should or should not do , instead of just sharing what I am attempting to do , this keeps things in a more positive light , and the doors of information open .

so I have a question beyond just holding a pad or a focus mitt for people to practice punching and stepping punching [chasing]

do you use them in any other training ,

I do with almost any combination I can come up with , so they can hit with power and keep balance and be able to flow at that commitment level
sometimes I will smother thee attack and push them out cause them to re enter as I feed a attack line , or shoot on some kicks or knees even the clinch and take down on a random timing cause them to adapt
just do 2 or 3 minute rounds like this for conditioning as well
takes allot out of them when they are firing with real power

feeding the mitts at speed with wing Chun hands can be tricky since allot is done in 1/2 beats [split timing ] and forward pressure eats up space but I’m getting better at it

on the other side does wonders for my ability to work the defense portion of my training , staying the pocket while guys are ripping shots at you and having to catch and counter with a new line [ a little chasing hands on my part since I’m feeding but letting them hit for my face not aim for the mitt helps that a bit ,
but I wouldn’t do that the first few times you will get cracked while your trying to reroute the mitts .