Fighters and Non-fighters

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Terrence has stated that there are fighters and non-fighters and that’s all. I tend to agree with that. However I put those who do chi sau, drills and forms in the same category as those who put on protection and spar or those who roll around on rubber mats all day long in the same category. The latter are also non-fighters but they often put themselves above the former category. They also can’t handle a fighter.

Real fighters are the professionals who fight for a living. They fight opponents whose intention is for knockout or submission. Someone getting in the ring with the likes of Tyson or whoever is good these days is a fighter. The rest are all hobbyists. I don’t know if this forum has any fighters by that kind of definition? If not then we should worry so much about semantics of who is or isn’t a fighter or whose shade of reality is more realistic. None would be fighters.

Real fighting is a totally different game and feeling. Differences are subtle and not obvious from the surface. On the surface both types of fighting look very similar. In professional fighting, you can’t afford to take as many risks. Eventually you risk some kind of permanent damage.

In Escrima, those who fight with a stick with no protection are real fighters. Maybe even the Dog brothers don’t qualify as fighters? Those who use protection and nerf padded sticks are not real fighters. Those who train with wooden knives and rubber knives are not real fighters no matter how intensively they fight. There just isn’t the same risk involved as when facing a real sharp blade.

If you want to be a real fighter then spending less than 6 hours in the gym or having an average looking body just won’t cut it in the professional world. It’s true that real fighters don’t spar full out with their training partners. They are careful and use protection. But you can’t draw the conclusion that by training like that in the identical fashion and even with those guys will put you in the same distinguished category. It’s the same as people who are very proud of the masters that taught them and feel elevated above those people who don’t have as good a teacher.

Professionals put themselves at risk and play for as real as is acceptable under the law. That’s a big difference. Indeed there are two categories of martial artists those who fight and those who don’t. Fighters are the professionals who do that as a living. If you don’t do that, then the rest of the talk about the reality of fighting is just hot air.

Most classical martial arts clubs are not set up to train fighters who would fights for a living. Few teachers have that experience and furthermore to make a living they have to cater to a wide variety of students. If trying to cater to the fighters then 90% of their bread and butter students would quit the training. So that’s another practical concern. In my mind, the usefulness of classical martial arts is not judged by how many professional fighters it produces. Of course if some art produces a world-class professional fighter then the natural human tendency is to brag about one’s great art.

The above is not meant as a set in concrete viewpoint but just as a topic to be discussed.

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I agree ,most “fighters” are really “sparrers” with a forum attitude.

Hey!, I spar!..:wink: :smiley:

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there are [ fighters ]
there are people that [ play ] hard
there are people that just train
and there are killers

I have trained with fighters and killers

I know I am not a fighter , I have felt their power and ability
I’m not on that level very few people are

personally I’m more intrigued by killers
I have seen martial arts as killing arts
not playing arts

in looking at yourself and how you train you must be honest with your goal
my goal is simple to kill ,maim , and incapacitate some one who threatens my health

thus my goal would be to focus on that aspect of training and seek the most efficient method of reaching that goal in my imaginary mind since I have yet to kill some one =)

some are competitive and have that drive they become fighters and they train to fight fighters
others are competitive but lack the drive to train , they just play hard

other’s just like to be part of something fighting and application tack a back seat , hanging out reading books training light a nice slow path to self discovery using martial arts as the vehicle

your goals will dictate your interest , first step is being honest with yourself
and accepting that not everyone will have the same goal as you

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Ernie-
the law has become a silent 3rd, 4th, x th party in many interactions in some key parts of the world.
Winning and losing have become quite contextual and relative terms.

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Originally posted by Vajramusti
Ernie-
the law has become a silent 3rd, 4th, x th party in many interactions in some key parts of the world.
Winning and losing have become quite contextual and relative terms.

Joy ,
This is were self honesty comes in , when you are forced to fight , there is no room for the law , or what your wife will think or what ever , you must make up your mind and follow through , with that knowledge one must avoid this confrontation realizing the consequences . like having a loaded gun with you art all times you don’t pull it out just because .

I noticed this as I learned more about martial arts I was not drawn at all to the sub mission aspects , or health aspects , or history none of those things just the raw honesty of application in it’s most brutal form [ I’m sick like that ] but I know this about myself , just like I know I have no desire to be a competitive fighter though I train at that levels sometimes

Just individual goals

As you put [ mileage may vary ]
:wink:

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“However I put those who do chi sau, drills and forms in the same category as those who put on protection and spar or those who roll around on rubber mats all day long in the same category.”

Chi sao, drills, and forms …in the same category as sparring with protective gear (and presumably hard contact)…???

The same category?

I don’t think so…have been in both camps…and the latter camp comes much closer to reality fighting than the first.

Comparing the protective equipment hard sparrers/grapplers to professional fighters and coming to the conclusion that the latter are the “real fighters” - while technically true…

doesn’t change the fact that the protective equipment hard sparrers/grapplers come closer to the “real fighters” than those who just do chi sao, drills, and forms.

Because the intensity and the danger involved is not the same - as well as the fact that the fighting scenarios covered in chi sao, drills, and forms are not as close to reality fighting as the hard sparrers/grapplers scenarios.

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Not to worry Ernie- I have a good sense of my priorities.

I am not advocating freezing or losing.

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Most “professional” fighters cannot make a living from what they get paid for fighting and they have other “day jobs”.

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YongChun wrote:

Terrence has stated that there are fighters and non-fighters and that’s all. I tend to agree with that. However I put those who do chi sau, drills and forms in the same category as those who put on protection and spar or those who roll around on rubber mats all day long in the same category. The latter are also non-fighters but they often put themselves above the former category. They also can’t handle a fighter.

**For me, the definition of a “fighter” is the same as for “martial artist” – one who gets into a fighting environment (like a swimmer is someone who gets in the water). That environment is characterized by an extremely high intensity, genuine resistance, and an intent to “crush”, pound, defeat, overwhelm, etc. the opponent. Boxers who get into the ring – regardless of whether they get paid for it – are fighters; muay thai practitioners that get into the ring – regardless of whether they get paid for it – are fighters; BJJ or wrestlers who get out on the mats and roll – regardless of whether they get paid for it – are fighters. WCK people that do only forms and drills, including chi sao, are not fighters (any more than folks that do boxing drills but never get into the ring aren’t fighters).

Real fighters are the professionals who fight for a living. They fight opponents whose intention is for knockout or submission.
Someone getting in the ring with the likes of Tyson or whoever is good these days is a fighter. The rest are all hobbyists.

**You separate folks into those that fight for a living and those that don’t – which is just an excuse or rationale for why folks don’t fight as part of their training (since they don’t intend to be a pro, there is no point). Besides being lame, it overlooks the whole point (cognitive dissonance) that all fighters know: that we can only become better fighters by actually fighting. Whether you get paid or not, the only way to become better at fighting is through fighting. The forms, drills which all fighting methods have btw are just preparations for fighting training.

I don’t know if this forum has any fighters by that kind of definition? If not then we should worry so much about semantics of who is or isn’t a fighter or whose shade of reality is more realistic. None would be fighters.

**It’s not semantics. It is the recognition of the most basic of training principles – that we need to actually do the activity to get better at the activity. To become a better swimmer we need to actually swim. To become a better fighter we need to actually fight. So if one never swims or one never fights (regardless of how long they practice forms or drills) they will never have any WCK skill (since WCK is fighting).

Real fighting is a totally different game and feeling. Differences are subtle and not obvious from the surface. On the surface both types of fighting look very similar. In professional fighting, you can’t afford to take as many risks. Eventually you risk some kind of permanent damage.

**There is no such thing as “real fighting” – there is just fighting. I’ve mixed it up with pro fighters, amatuer fighters, and folks that fight as part of their normal training. It’s all the same. Fighting is a contact activity (perhaps the most intense of contact activities), like (american) football or rugby and comes with inherent risks (btw, there is pro rugby and amatuer rugby but it’s the same game just at different levels of skill). We can try to minimize those risks with various means, but some risks remain. Injuries occur. But that’sthe nature of the activity. If you don’t like the risks associated with rugby, then don’t play.

In Escrima, those who fight with a stick with no protection are real fighters. Maybe even the Dog brothers don’t qualify as fighters? Those who use protection and nerf padded sticks are not real fighters. Those who train with wooden knives and rubber knives are not real fighters no matter how intensively they fight. There just isn’t the same risk involved as when facing a real sharp blade.

**You don’t grasp the nature of “intensity” – it is not just “moving fast” but involves the level of the opponent’s attributes, the level of the opponent’s skill, and the amount of risk involved. Certainly we can’t train at life-and-death intensity (we’d kill our training partners or be killed). But we can train at sufficient levels of risk, even with weapons, that will provide the proper mental “respect” (where you can be hurt).

If you want to be a real fighter then spending less than 6 hours in the gym or having an average looking body just won’t cut it in the professional world.

**There are levels of fighting skill – it’s not a matter of you’re either pro or you have nothing. Higher levels of fighting skill include higher levels of conditioning among other things.

It’s true that real fighters don’t spar full out with their training partners. They are careful and use protection. But you can’t draw the conclusion that by training like that in the identical fashion and even with those guys will put you in the same distinguished category.

**It has nothing to do with being in a “distinguished category”. It’s simple – if you want to increase your fighting skill, regardless of your method, you need to fight. If you don’t fight, you’ll never significantly increase your fighting (WCK) skill. If a “WCK master” who trained with Yip Man, has spent over 20 years practicing WCK, is renowned for his chi sao (“touching hands”), has taught for years, etc. but never fought as part of his training, we will never have developed good WCK. To put it bluntly, he’ll suck. If we pit him against a MMAist with just a year or two of training (not a pro but someone that has put in some time actually fighting), the WCK master will get his @ss handed to him.

It’s the same as people who are very proud of the masters that taught them and feel elevated above those people who don’t have as good a teacher.

**It’s not about “pride”, it is about training. To get certain results, we must train a certain way.

Professionals put themselves at risk and play for as real as is acceptable under the law. That’s a big difference. Indeed there are two categories of martial artists those who fight and those who don’t. Fighters are the professionals who do that as a living. If you don’t do that, then the rest of the talk about the reality of fighting is just hot air.

**This is all just theory to you because you don’t have experience. I know of many people in WCK that train (fight) with pro fighters, cage fighters, NHB fighters, etc. I know people that have boxed their whole lives, that get in the ring weekly, but never had a pro fight. Anyone that fights, at any level, is putting themselves at risk – that’s a necessary ingredient of fighting. A person can’t learn to deal with these risks (getting hit, etc.) without facing them.

Most classical martial arts clubs are not set up to train fighters who would fights for a living. Few teachers have that experience and furthermore to make a living they have to cater to a wide variety of students. If trying to cater to the fighters then 90% of their bread and butter students would quit the training. So that’s another practical concern.

**Most YMCAs are not equipped to train olympic level swimmers but they all have a pool and everyone who goes there to learn to swim gets into it. Not all boxing gyms have trainers that can get you to olympic level boxing but they all have rings and everyone that goes there to learn to box will get into it. You learn to swim by swimming and you learn to box (fight) by boxing (fighting). Most MA schools don’t cater to people that want to actually become better fighters, they cater to people who want other things and they sell them these other things. In my mind, they aren’t martial art schools since they don’t train martial arts (fighting).

In my mind, the usefulness of classical martial arts is not judged by how many professional fighters it produces. Of course if some art produces a world-class professional fighter then the natural human tendency is to brag about one’s great art.

**If someone is concerned with actually achieving increased performance results (becoming a better fighter), they need to focus on results. The POV expoused above makes me wonder – do you think that you can become a better or more skillful fighter without fighting? If so, why not test your theory? So far, the world has yet to produce a skilled fighter that way but perhaps you kow of someone that has been hiding? :wink: Or do you think that we can’t really become better fighters without being pro fighters? And if that is the case, then why practice a MA in the first place?

Regards,

Terence

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Normally I stay away from questions like “are you a fighter for real?” as it can spin easily to a thousand and one variations of good storytelling. I prefer a more down to earth fanfare for the common man. =) You are a fighter when you choose to fight instead of running away from your problem. True! You may be a bad, horrible, or low-level contemptible kind of fighter, but you are definitely a real threat nevertheless to those who dare to cross your path. For they like all human have their unguarded moment, and that is often just enough. Just musing out loud on a Saturday morning! =)

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Terence,
For me as an individual, my training became more than just about fighting and becoming a fighter per say. Like I have said before if fighting ability was everything, for me anyways, I could have stopped 13yrs ago and just continued on my own with what I had learned up to that point. At that time I was sparring (fighting as you define it) weekly and I could have easily just stopped learning more and more and just practiced the techniques at that level and sparred some more. When you are put into that environment you will definitely improve at a faster pace, than just doing forms, and air drills. But for me I became more curious about the art and I wanted to learn more about it. “What’s next” is what I kept asking myself and I was also curious to see how my skill would grow too. Video taping is a very useful tool here as you can see the progression in skill over a period of time, and this reinforces positive feedback that improvement is actually happening. Today, I am involved with other areas of WC, mostly in the realm of teaching and promotion. Does this mean I can’t fight anymore? Well, obviously there is always room for improvement and if I stepped up my training, in both the conditioning realm and sparring realm, my skill would definitely grow as a result, but on the other hand I also believe in WC’s inherent combat effectiveness, so therefore if one is a “expert”, and by this I do not mean a master or someone that is perfect at it, but someone that knows the systems, and can perform the movements and concepts in a live environment and with competency, then they will have fighting ability as a by product of that knowledge. It’s all on what you as an individual want, and what you focus on. For me I would just like to perfect the WC system I am involved with, not becoming the master fighter that some look for, and this is okay too, everyone has the right to do anything they want with it.

James

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James, WC in Calgary,how great.i used to live near midnapool.[not right spelling].
Russ

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“It’s not semantics. It is the recognition of the most basic of training principles – that we need to actually do the activity to get better at the activity. To become a better swimmer we need to actually swim. To become a better fighter we need to actually fight. So if one never swims or one never fights (regardless of how long they practice forms or drills) they will never have any WCK skill (since WCK is fighting).” (Terence)

This paragraph says it all.

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Here’s a DRILL. I try to stab you with a knife. You try to defend. From this drill both sides will achieve something that can be used in a real fight. This drills is useful for real fighting. Next substitute an Escrima stick and do the same. This prepares you for a real fight.

Here’s a form. Keep the knife almost hidden from view and keep it very close to your body so that it can’t be grabbed or kicked out of your hand. Move in quickly and show the knife at the last momement. That’s the Form. This form is useful for real fighting.

It’s not fight OR do forms and drills, it’s doing all of the above in a proper balance. Fighting comes when you are ready for it. Training should be progressive to make you reach that point.

If you have never kicked someone’s knee out or really hit someone in the back of the head or side of the neck to cause a real knockout, you might be surprised that in real what you thought worked in intensive sparring doesn’t work. I have seen a few cases like that from experienced competitive fighters.

Sparring with lots of protection gives you a false sense of reality. The Dog brothers are a step closer to reality but according to those Esrimadors who have fought for real, not close enough. Two tough guys hammering each other in the ring with protection without knocking each other’s brains out, are swimmming in the bath tub instead of on dry land. Those who learn to fight in jail or have millitary combat experience are the ones who really swim. All the rest is just various forms of dry land swimming.

The real the fight, the more confidence that you will get. The main problem is just how to do that safely. The more safe, the more it is dry land swimming. Training with a wooden stick is totally different than training with a sharp edged weapon.

There is play fighting which any kind of sparring is and then there is real fighting where you intend to seriously hurt your opponent.

Ring fighting is also very different from street fighting. Mixing it up in the ring with your buddies only prepares you for that kind of fighting and makes you comfortable in that realm of play. Real combat involves many elements. Unless you mix it up with fighters of all kinds and not just MMA, BJJ and boxers, you will never be aware of what some humans can do to you in a fight. MMA, BJJ, Boxing and Thai boxing are exellent for ring fighting. reported street attacks and killings are never like ring fights.

Real fighting is three guys trying to smash you or stab you with sharpend pipes. If you aren’t training for that, then what are you training for? Will working out with boxers help that?

I think playing around with BJJ people to see if your Wing Chun will work in that environment is also a waste of time in the same way that BJJ would waste their time training Chi sau. If you like that stuff then just train it for five year. If you like Thai boxing then train it for five years. Just mixing it up with those guys is not that useful. Those things are sports. If you want to fight, try walking into a Silat club in Indonesia with an attitude.

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“Here’s a form. Keep the knife almost hidden from view and keep it very close to your body so that it can’t be grabbed or kicked out of your hand. Move in quickly and show the knife at the last momement. That’s the Form. This form is useful for real fighting.”
(Yongchun)

It’s useful only AFTER it’s no longer a form…because you’re now (hopefully) practicing the move against a resisting partner.

Forms have some value…true…but in the final analysis they’re just a dance that one performs alone.

Sparring/fighting is a whole different experience against a live resisting partner/opponent.

"The more real the fight, the more confidence that you will get. The main problem is just how to do that safely. The more safe, the more it is dry land swimming. Training with a wooden stick is totally different than training with a sharp edged weapon. "
(Yongchun)

True…but that doesn’t change the fact that sparring (even with protective equipment) can get very realistic and very rough…

much rougher and more realistic than forms, drills, or chi sao (even a rough chi sao still has too many rules to be considered as realistic as sparring).

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The rougher the training, the more risks you take the closer to reality. But that’s not always usefull to train that way especially if you get injured for 6 months at a time (happened to me a few times). After enough injuries you tend to train smarter with almost the same results. I found the very rough training often produces tense fighters who only rely on speed and strength. They really were no more effective in a real fight than people who trained in a calmer fashion. In fact these tense guys were for the most part much easier to beat. MOstly their arts resembled more kickboxing than anything to do with Wing Chun.

Weapons fighters in Chinese martial art (the ones I am familiar with anyway), tend to drill with real weapons and after that fight for real. The main thing is drills with the real weapon with the right kind of drills. If you train any other way like by actually trying to cut your sparring partner’s arm off, then that’s idiotic. My Hung style teacher and another teacher who was from Choy Lay Fut both trained their art with forms and drills. After that they went out to fight for real. The Hong Kong Wing Chun guys in Wong Shun Leung’s club that we encountered in the late 80’s trained a very rough chi sau and after that some just went out and fought. They didn’t feel the need to spar with boxers and BJJ stylists.

The Wing Chun fighters I have known (only two mind you) worked for Asian drug gangs. These guys were very relaxed, very hard hitters, very economical and fearlessly went in. They never trained in boxing, sparred around with kickboxers or practiced with Brazillian Jujitsu. But also they didn’t fight these kinds of people in a ring. Maybe if they did they might have been interested in that. According to them, the real fights tended to involve weapons or multiple opponents.

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Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“Here’s a form. Keep the knife almost hidden from view and keep it very close to your body so that it can’t be grabbed or kicked out of your hand. Move in quickly and show the knife at the last momement. That’s the Form. This form is useful for real fighting.”
(Yongchun)

It’s useful only AFTER it’s no longer a form…because you’re now (hopefully) practicing the move against a resisting partner.

[/B]

Yes that’s what I said, you also have to have a realistic DRILL to go with it. Trying to stab your partner with a knife is a drill that encompasses a lot of things. The drill and form eventually becomes natural and in fact seemingly formless.

After that anything more realistic will only get you killed.

In most clubs the training is progressive in that the teacher feeds a little more to the student than that student can handle. It does no good to go even harder and break his nose and split his lip, although that would give him a good taste of reality. Some students take a long time before they are ready for a rough and tough sparring match against a realistic opponent. A lot will always be limited in that kind of fight by their size.

Seriously speaking, instead of all this foolish talk that we are all doing, in our club anyway we have to cater to a variety of students. Some think like Terrence and some don’t. Some have fought for their living and some have never been in a fight.

The fighters have done that and are no longer interested. Some have competed, one at Olympic level, one at state or province level (Judo, wrestling). Some have done that and are no longer interested in this. Then we have some older people who want to learn martial arts. We don’t have them spar with wild fast, strong partners. They can’t even remember the form. Then we have some you ladies in junior school and high school. The mix is all over the map.

Realistically there is no way the students who are just getting into Wing Chun can match the people who have fought and who also outweigh them by 100 pounds. IT doesn’t do them anygood to put on gloves and spar with the fighters.

Yet the fighters try to help those who are not fighters to slowly have them progress up the continuum of fighting. Everyone is a fighter in training but just all different levels. Progress is limited by people’s talents, how much they train and their genetic attributes and intelligence. But we treat everyone as special, everyone as equal and don’t divide the class up into two groups: the fighters and the wimps and those who are too chicken to fight. When people are ready, then they can fight, no sooner than that. No one is under any misconception about what they can handle in a real fight.

Those people who really like to fight, tend to go outside of the club compete in tournaments or cross train in other arts or spar against friends who have learned something else. One student trains Thai boxing and another is into submission wrestling.

Some students end up as fights as part of their job in correctional work or police work or in bouncing work. Some will never be fighters but we encourage them to keep at it and slowly they progress. All the students like the variety of things physical and mental that Wing Chun has to offer. These things tend to keep up the interest such that the students keep coming and coming. Those who train very intensively, I have found, eventually can’t take it anymore and totally give up.

Within any club the opinions will vary as much as on this forum. It all depends on the background of the student. Some clubs just happen to draw in more fighters and some just don’t. You work accordingly with whatever mix shows up and tailor the training for what they need. Different strokes for different folks but no use to look down on anyone or to put a special label on their forehead that says : I am a wimp because I’m scared to fight.

It’s the challenge of the teacher to provide what the student is looking for. It’s the challenge of the teacher to teach as realistic fighting as possible while keeping his students safe from serious injury. It’s the duty of the teacher to keep his students from fighting on the streets. It’s the duty of the teacher to give the student a realistic idea of what he can really do. It’s the challenge of the teacher to inspire the student to research the art and to become better than himself. It’s the duty of the teacher to absorb what is useful from the fighting world and from forums such as this for the benefit of his students.

In our club we have tried various Wing Chun approaches. We have found that those approaches that involve lots of fighting and minimal work on forms or chi sau don’t produce a high quality of Wing Chun as shown to us by some people we consider as masters of the art. The approach of these people was very elegant, mimimal effort, powerful, relaxed and very effective. quite possibly we could have hit these guys in the head with a wild shot but that’s not what we are training for. How you train really depends on who you have met no matter from what style. Some people have met some high level practitioners for the sake of example let’s use Chen Xiaowang (I don’t like to push just the Wing Chun people I happen to like). Then those who like that kind of skill will tend to follow his suggestions of how to train. Those who have met Frank Shamrock and like that kind of fighting will tend to follow his methods. Whatever. Either camp can fight.

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**A few random comments:

YongChun wrote:

In most clubs the training is progressive in that the teacher feeds a little more to the student than that student can handle.

**It all hinges on how one defines “progress” (training is progressive) – for me, since the objective is to become a better fighter via WCK training, one can only measure progress toward that goal by fighting (you can’t measure one’s progress toward being a better swimmer without getting in the water).

It does no good to go even harder and break his nose and split his lip, although that would give him a good taste of reality. Some students take a long time before they are ready for a rough and tough sparring match against a realistic opponent. A lot will always be limited in that kind of fight by their size.

**Funny how all the methods that produce fighters, boxing, wrestling, muay thai, BKK, kyokushinkai, etc. don’t find that limitation – they get the student into fighting right away. Admit it, your premise is that one can become a better fighter without fighting and that one needs to spend a lot of time doing forms and drills before they can even think about fighting. You are wrong on both counts.

Realistically there is no way the students who are just getting into Wing Chun can match the people who have fought and who also outweigh them by 100 pounds. IT doesn’t do them anygood to put on gloves and spar with the fighters.

**You don’t get it – it’s not about beating our training (fighting) partners up, it is about learning and getting better. I may not be able to beat a BJJ black belt when I’m a white/blue/purple belt, but I get better by rolling (fighting) with one. I may not be able to beat a pro boxer but I get better by getting in the ring with one. The better our training (fighting) partners, the better we become.

Yet the fighters try to help those who are not fighters to slowly have them progress up the continuum of fighting.

**There is no “continuum of fighting” – this is like nonswimmers talking about “slowly having students progress up toward getting in the water”! You either get in the water or you don’t; you either fight or you don’t.

Everyone is a fighter in training but just all different levels.

**I can be a pilot in training too, but if I never fly a plane, I can’t call myself a pilot and I’ll never learn to fly without doing it.

Progress is limited by people’s talents, how much they train and their genetic attributes and intelligence.

**Agreed.

But we treat everyone as special, everyone as equal and don’t divide the class up into two groups: the fighters and the wimps and those who are too chicken to fight. When people are ready, then they can fight, no sooner than that. No one is under any misconception about what they can handle in a real fight.

**When I took swimming lessons at the Y many years ago (when I was 3 or 4 years old), the very first day they had us climb up to the top of the high dive and jump into the water (they pulled us out with a pole). Then we spent every class in the water. Everyone was equal and everyone learned to swim. They didn’t have those that “weren’t ready to get in the water” practice on the side of the pool.

Some clubs just happen to draw in more fighters and some just don’t.

**That’s just not true – it is no happenstance.

You work accordingly with whatever mix shows up and tailor the training for what they need.

**If they “need” to become better fighters, then they need to fight as part of their training, it’s as simple as that.

Different strokes for different folks but no use to look down on anyone or to put a special label on their forehead that says : I am a wimp because I’m scared to fight.

**Forget the labels and concentrate on the training principle – if someone wants to become a better fighter (with WCK or BJJ or whatever) they need to fight as part of their training. Period. If they don’t do that, for whatever reason, they will never become skilled.

In our club we have tried various Wing Chun approaches. We have found that those approaches that involve lots of fighting and minimal work on forms or chi sau don’t produce a high quality of Wing Chun as shown to us by some people we consider as masters of the art.

**The objective of WCK to make us a better fighter. So how can someone judge the “quality of WCK” apart from fighting (to see if those results were obtained)? Oh, your tan sao “looks” so much better today? LOL! WCK , like any MA, is fighting and just like one can’t judge the quality of someone’s BJJ without having them roll or the quality of someone’s boxing without having them box they can’t judge the quality of someone’s WCK without having them fight. Forms or chi sao (drills) are steps in training to make us better fighters, so their “quality” again can only be determined by fighting (has the form or drill actually produced those results). You can consider X a “master of the art” while someone else can consider him a dunce; someone else may consider Y a “master of the art” and you may consider him a scrub. These things are all subjective because the “judgments” are not performance-based.

The approach of these people was very elegant, mimimal effort, powerful, relaxed and very effective. quite possibly we could have hit these guys in the head with a wild shot but that’s not what we are training for.

**It is fairly easy to be elegent, use minimum effort, be powerful, relaxed and appear effective in drills (chi sao) and demonstrations (same with lots of “masters” of all kinds of MAs) – it is quite another thing to have these qualities in fighting. After all, if you do the same drill (chi sao) enough, you’ll get “good” at how you do that drill. That doesn’t mean it will translate into being a good fighter (you may be doing things that look great in the drill but will fail miserably in fighting). If it did, these “masters” would be more than willing to step up and mix it up with proven, skillful fighters.

How you train really depends on who you have met no matter from what style.

**This is true for nonfighters since they copy the things they have seen; fighters will find those things that work for them (and will not “look” like “who they have met”.

Some people have met some high level practitioners for the sake of example let’s use Chen Xiaowang (I don’t like to push just the Wing Chun people I happen to like). Then those who like that kind of skill will tend to follow his suggestions of how to train.

**I could kick CXW’s @ss; so would Ernie, Andrew, and anyone else that fights as part of their training. CXW has no fighting skill. And I’m not bragging because I’m not very good (lots of folks can beat me) – but I fight as part of my training and he doesn’t. A MMAist with 2 years training that fights regularly would destroy CXW too, because CXW doesn’t get into the pool so he can’t be a good swimmer. All his forms and drills (push hands) mean nothing if he isn’t fighting. But you’re right – nonfighters see him in demo and are impressed, and they follow what he says thinking that if they do, they’ll become as “good” too. The rub is that he is good in demo but not in fighting, and by doing what he does will never make them skilled fighters (and, of course, that’s why we don’t see any tai ji fighters).

Those who have met Frank Shamrock and like that kind of fighting will tend to follow his methods. Whatever. Either camp can fight.

**Everyone, even folks with no training, can fight. The issue is whether a person’s training will significantly increase their fighting performance. All fighters, including Shamrock, fight as part of their training – that’s why their performance increases. Other folks, like you, want to believe that they can increase their fighting performance without fighting (“either camp can fight”) – you are wrong. That position is refuted by evidence, by history and by how human beings improve in any physical activity. But, as I’ve repeatedly said, if you want to find out for yourself the validity of your position, there is an easy way to find out.

Regards,

Terence

19

Originally posted by YongChun

If you have never kicked someone’s knee out or really hit someone in the back of the head or side of the neck to cause a real knockout, you might be surprised that in real what you thought worked in intensive sparring doesn’t work. I have seen a few cases like that from experienced competitive fighters.

yeah, it’s funny how that works…when adrenaline is rushing and heart rate increases, you will only retain that which is ingrained into you muscle memory. If nothing is ingrained, you will either freeze or flail, most likely. Contact helps to overcome freezing and teaches you to retain control in high adrenaline situations. By doing the basics over and over, they get ingrained quickly.

Sparring with lots of protection gives you a false sense of reality. The Dog brothers are a step closer to reality but according to those Esrimadors who have fought for real, not close enough. Two tough guys hammering each other in the ring with protection without knocking each other’s brains out, are swimmming in the bath tub instead of on dry land. Those who learn to fight in jail or have millitary combat experience are the ones who really swim. All the rest is just various forms of dry land swimming.

not really. if you were only referring to point sarring I would agree with you. But, hard contact is hard contact. If you don’t think so, find some local fights and enter them. 12 oz. gloves aren’t that big and headgear isn’t that thick. If you get hit hard yhou know it. KO’s are still produced in the amateurs, where protection is still worn.

that said though, I take it you are training against real knives all the time, doing eye gouges and throat strikes in training all the time, groin shots on a regular basis, fighting multiple opponents full contact, balls to the wall,etc. all the time, right? If not, perhaps the sport fighter’s pool is a bit more real than yours…

The real the fight, the more confidence that you will get. The main problem is just how to do that safely. The more safe, the more it is dry land swimming. Training with a wooden stick is totally different than training with a sharp edged weapon.

so you admit to being on dry land. cool.

There is play fighting which any kind of sparring is and then there is real fighting where you intend to seriously hurt your opponent.

hmm…like being in the ring?

Ring fighting is also very different from street fighting.

that is true.

Mixing it up in the ring with your buddies only prepares you for that kind of fighting and makes you comfortable in that realm of play.

Not really. There are lessons learned from contact fighting that carry over into the street.

Unless you mix it up with fighters of all kinds and not just MMA, BJJ and boxers, you will never be aware of what some humans can do to you in a fight. MMA, BJJ, Boxing and Thai boxing are exellent for ring fighting. reported street attacks and killings are never like ring fights.

you may have stepped on the toes of more than half the guys on the forum with that one.

street attacks and killings are not like your safe cushiony training and chi sau either… It kills me when people say things like “thai boxing isn’t like a street fight. In my class, we train against multiple attackers and learn weapons” Whatever… That said, however, a real fight is sudden violence. An opponent or opponents who want to take your head off as fast as they can, however they can. As I said above, ring fighting will teach you valuable lessons in dealing with that.

Real fighting is three guys trying to smash you or stab you with sharpend pipes. If you aren’t training for that, then what are you training for? Will working out with boxers help that?

you know what though? That’s NOT reality…not necessarily. I’ve been in several fights, some involving multiple attackers, none involving multiple people who all had weapons. I’ve gone to the ground in fights and not been “stomped by the guys buddies” I’ve chased down a mugger while his friends waited for him to get in the car so they could get away - no shots were fired, none of them got out of the car. I’ve had a friend that was stomped by eight guys. I’ve had friends that were shot and killed. I’ve got friends that are in jail for killing people.

What’s the point? That reality is different for everyone. More than half of the people involved in MA will never have to use their skills. That’s the reality. you are training for a possibility. Sport fighters train for an inevitability. They WILL fight again. people tend to always take an extreme situation and say “this is reality - this is what we train for”..that’s BS. That’s the reality of it.

I think playing around with BJJ people to see if your Wing Chun will work in that environment is also a waste of time in the same way that BJJ would waste their time training Chi sau. If you like that stuff then just train it for five year. If you like Thai boxing then train it for five years. Just mixing it up with those guys is not that useful. Those things are sports. If you want to fight, try walking into a Silat club in Indonesia with an attitude.

I have a greater chance of getting taken down than I do of ending up in a trapping match with someone. When you get taken to the ground, how do you get up efficiently? How do you get up at all? you’ve got a big, 300lb killer with boulders for hands raining punches down on you like bombs, and his buddies are circling up, preparing to stomp you into the dirt (see the exaggeration there?) How do you get back to your feet? That’s where grappling comes in. Grappling has it’s own sensitivity training, as does thai boxing, they don’t need chi sau. what they do need is what they lack. For the former, striking, and the latter, grappling. That’s why people cross train.

20

Originally posted by YongChun
The rougher the training, the more risks you take the closer to reality. But that’s not always usefull to train that way especially if you get injured for 6 months at a time (happened to me a few times). After enough injuries you tend to train smarter with almost the same results. I found the very rough training often produces tense fighters who only rely on speed and strength. They really were no more effective in a real fight than people who trained in a calmer fashion. In fact these tense guys were for the most part much easier to beat. MOstly their arts resembled more kickboxing than anything to do with Wing Chun.

As I stated above - when techniques are not ingrained, you will either freeze or flail. Sounds like these guys took the flailing route. There is alot more to kickboxing then throwing out punches and kicks. They mad have resembled a badly trained kicboxer, but that’s about it.

Weapons fighters in Chinese martial art (the ones I am familiar with anyway), tend to drill with real weapons and after that fight for real. The main thing is drills with the real weapon with the right kind of drills. If you train any other way like by actually trying to cut your sparring partner’s arm off, then that’s idiotic. My Hung style teacher and another teacher who was from Choy Lay Fut both trained their art with forms and drills. After that they went out to fight for real. The Hong Kong Wing Chun guys in Wong Shun Leung’s club that we encountered in the late 80’s trained a very rough chi sau and after that some just went out and fought. They didn’t feel the need to spar with boxers and BJJ stylists.

How many schools are there that do this? I bet you’ll find that the majority don’t. When I was training jkd, we would do drills with real machettes on occasion, but it wasn’t a regular basis thing.

According to them, the real fights tended to involve weapons or multiple opponents.

As I said above, reality is different from person to person.