At this point I we understand that several members of the forum think that you have to fight to learn how to use wing chun.
Could we take it to the next level please? What has fighting taught you exactly? For example It would be instructive if someone said I was taught to do bong sau this way but I have found when fighting it is better used that way.
This is a wing chun forum after all and once upon a time discussions actually talked about how to use wing chun.
That’s a good question. I think fighting a lot is like trying to throw a ball into a basket. By doingit a million times, your neurons get programmed to apply just the right physical parameters to get the job done with more and more success. In fighting you try to hit without getting hit. So this requires fine tuning on timing and distance. Timing, distance, speed, power and technique all relate and all have to be balanced in accordance to the type of attacker and all his parameters. Once you fine tune yourself to handle a certain kind of attacker it doesn’t guarantee that you can handle a different kind of attacker.
Ray
Disregard of fighting or theory or all the terminology or labering… all those clasification wing chun or fighting…
First one has to have the power. and thus, one needs to know how to generate power. know what type of power generated… and can generate power.
One’s power generation capability dominant one’s ability in Wing Chun or in Fighting.
just some thoughts
In fighting you try to hit without getting hit.
Nice post Ray,
I have a different pov. In a fight everyone gets hit unless there is a huge skill level difference. So I dont approach training with a view of not getting hit. I train to not get hit with a full power shot.
One of the results of moving foward is that you natually jam up attacks before they get to what i call their full power band. Wing Chun spends a great deal of time in controlling and disrupting balance. This also has the effect of draining power from attacks. Cant hit full power if you are falling backwards etc. Also moving while covering,in my wing chun there are no blocks only covers,
helps to catch attacks and slow them donw or put them in what i call mush. Most stand up grappling is what i consider mush.
YP- nice post I agree. Problem is what type of power generation engine is used. From what i have seen most use an engine that is not necessarily a wing chun engine but it works.
On other threads you ask about Keng Geng. People may have it but not know the name could you give an overview of theit or the mechanics. I personaly have always found chinese confusing. Depending where in China the art is from different terms describe the same thing. Also some teachers teach by hand, They cant describe what they do but can show it. What you call Keng Geng others might say is Fa Jing.
Good posts YP, Hunt 1 and Ray.
There are different kinds of “powers”… and terminology varies with families…
keng jeng is fajing(mandarin) with yp.But keng geng means listening power to me. Bau ja lik is exploding power to me.
Demoing is the best way to uderstand the varieties of power and the uses of the wing chun engine when properly built.
Also “fighting” is nota fixed entity. Each fight has unique aspects to it- place, time, environment, nature of the other fella(s). You fight four persons and your techniques can work- then they may ve useless aginst the 5th. Chi sao with all kinds of people can give you a sense of different folks timing for your reflexive memory bank..
But one aspect of the thread-re whether wing chun works. One very brief real world example: Some years ago in a southwestern city I and my number two son were waiting at a Trailways bus station for a relative to come in ona bus. Number two son was/is a hyperactive character… constantly running in and out of the bus station door to see whther the bus had come in.
There was a burly man(bigger, younger and stronger than me) who serviced vending machines around town witha truck and dollies. . My son irritated him by running in and out. Understandable but the man’s reaction was unacceptable.. So the man confronts my son and says something like “Go****** kid- get your ass over there and sit down”. I was a little further away. My son was shocked at the language and looked at me and said something like"Dad did you hear what he said"?
So I walked up to the guy and said something like"Sir- I have trained my kid to respect elders- but you sir are a a son of a
*****". The guy maddened and angry- immediately cursed and threw the equivalent of a good powerful right hook. I stepped forward witha right hand kau sao(straight out of slt) and then a fan sao(separating hand from slt)- left hand controlled his hand and him and my controlled right palm(palm down strike) was at his throat and controlling his throat and him. Dangerous business- working with the throat. Requires control.
I said something like-“I wouldnt do that”. He looked shocked surpised and was mumbling something and was basically ineffective and off balance..and I pushed him aside.
End of fight. No permanent damage.
The bus station mangement(they knew the guy and had good relations with him) called 911. The investigating officer accepted my explanation of self defense- no charges. I didn’t press charges aginst the thoroughly demoralized man either.
Not a 15 roumd fight. Not a championship match- but as in Shane- you gotta do what you gotta do. Short. sweet and to the point. I knew that wing chun kau sao and fan sao were for real- if you know what you are doing and have developed the appropriate wc skill and timing and control and power…
for the kau sau and fan sao and you know the appropriate lines of attack and defense.
I am generally reluctant to talk about experiences on the net- but I mention this briefly on this thread…because of the talk on the weaknesses of wc and the arbitrary lines between technicians and fighters in some forum posts.The kaosao-fan sao combination may not be the most appropriate for a different occasion and a different opponent. Wing chun is not a collection of memorized techniques…
Originally posted by hunt1
[B]YP- nice post I agree.
Problem is what type of power generation engine is used.
From what i have seen most use an engine that is not necessarily a wing chun engine but it works.
On other threads you ask about Keng Geng. People may have it but not know the name could you give an overview of theit or the mechanics. I personaly have always found chinese confusing. Depending where in China the art is from different terms describe the same thing. Also some teachers teach by hand, They cant describe what they do but can show it. What you call Keng Geng others might say is Fa Jing. [/B]
1, in a proffesional way, IMHHO, when the engine is not necessary a Wing Chun endose power generation enginee but a substitution. Then, one has to know what is the pro and con of that enginee and how well it fit with the Wing Chun methodology.
without a clear understanding, we question is that Wing Chun?
2, IMHO, from my reading of the technical history, Keng Geng or Chuck Geng requirement is because in order for WCK to achive its full potential, a power generation with a characteristic of — default in relax sensing and awareness, almost “Zero second” acceleration, minimum muscle dependency, and always in equilbrium dynamicaly — is a must.
Otherwise, SLT will not work.
So, while developing the SLT, the Keng Geng or Chuck Geng or Full Arrow platform were developed in the sametimes.
Keng Geng is just means " shock power generation" Chuck Geng is just means " speedly power generation" These two terms are describing this - default in relax sensing/listening and awareness, almost “Zero second” acceleration, minimum muscle dependency and always in equilbrium dynamicaly.
Shock or Keng because it looks “suddent” powered from no where out of the blue while the body is in trainquil relax. Chuck means speedy which is another way to describe the default in relax sensing/listening and awareness, almost “Zero second” acceleration, minimum muscle dependency power. no “pre” preparation needed to generate the power.
So, without this type of power, close range ie elbow range inward combat is not going to be the same drastically. Say, IE a guy rushing in to grab and take down the ancestors WCner with the Keng Geng or Chuck Geng capability. The ancestor has no fear and do not tensing oneself to "against"or sustain the incoming momentum But welcome in awareness and relax for the momentum to land into the domain to disolve it with the power generation when the timing is confirm. as it said, subdue the action with silence.
So, without chuck geng or the speedy/“zero” acceleration time capability, that is not possible to achive.
In addition, with the capability of Keng Geng, make possible for one to stay all the time in Awareness listening or sensing or Chi as in Chi Sau without tensing, but will have the power needed “anytime” the call for power is needed.
The ancient description of the WCK STAGE is ---- Silencely analogy to the surface of a lake’s wave always at ease and “aware”. impulsely analogy to suddent raise Tida wave which rock and shock the sea. and it is always nature. Note that there is no mention of this or that technics or kiu sau…etc
But boil down to 1, nature 2, aware, 3, capable of huge power and tranquil with ease. 4, it is always pendulum-ing or oscilating similar to the wave. it is non linear.
So, from studying the technical history from LJ lineage or Yik kam lineage, there were solid evidents of this power generation exist.
Yik Kam was described using this type of power to beat the Cho’s brothers prior the Cho learn WCK. Chuck Geng is a term from KuLao if I am not wrong.
So, I am interested in the Process of how to attain this keng Geng or the WCK STAGE. Perhaps some one in this forum know how to do it. So they can help us. So, No, it is not about theory or fighting or… all the ego i am more practical then you or I know more then you or I am more origine then you or I have that ZEN term. the question is do one have that process that technology and it shown if the technology is there if the person decide to show insteat of flying in the stealh spy plane mode to cover up.
As for fighting, one can fight in different way and effective. but is it as Describe in the WCK STAGE? if not, then is it WCK? Certainly it is great to brought up fighitng…etc. But , IMHHO, if one doesnt reach or Attained the WCK STAGE with WCK processes. Then, what to discuss? Based on personal “speculation” ? Is that still WCK?
just some thoughts based on Thus I have heard in the Technical History of WCK. and no, Keng Geng or Chuck Geng is not just Chinese term. it has its meaning. and It is not Fajing too. Because Fajing is a common term. Jing or Geng or power itself has atleast 6 different type in internal art. So, why there are so many types? because those ancient ancestors of TCMA knows it will be very difficult to disolve a power which has a different patterns of different force vector combination or the six directional force. Such as a Tan sau is great if the in comming force comes in a certain way and carry a monotonous resultant force patern. but, when the incoming force has an adaptive and non-monotonous resultant force patern, then one will absorb the force and cannot neutralized or dissipate it.
Thus, from the technnical history we know today that there are lots of Process being lost. Thus, when some one brouth up the Song/Chen or Zheng trying to compare with the Falling Step. that is not a quality understanding but real muddy understanding of the components of TCMA. and that cant be valid.
Thus, how can one advocate figthing as the “ultimate” correct way of learning the real WCK where one doesnt clearly understand the basic fundamental components of TCMA or even WCK? is going wild and gongho and forcing and using whatever (even bringing a steel hammer to hit) WCK? I dont deny the capability of some dont even have to learn martial art to beat others in the street. But is that WCK?
merry xmas and happy new year.
Joy great post thanks for sharing.
Yp- I agree with you thanks for posting.
I think one of the problems is is that wing chun body is different tahn what many are used to and it takes a long time to reprogram. Its one thing to learn the mechanics another to apply them. I think that when application comes many revert to what is more natural.
I keep looking for all the fighters to share with us what they have learned from their 100% effort training.
hell i’m still waiting for all the talkers to share anything 
Aw Ernie thats not fair is it?
From what I have been reading the fighters dont think the talkers have anything worth sharing cause they dont fight so how can they know!
At the same time the fighters keep repeating the same thing over and over and over and over and over !
This is a wing chun discussion forum so I just think it would be nice for the fighters ,some of whom seem to know everything and if they dont know it its not worth knowing, share some specifics thats all.
For example lots of peeps were taught 0/100 bong-shift. Any find that this works just like they were taught in the forms or did changes have to be made? Its possible that someone found that they kept getting taken down or fell victim to a shoulder when they did this and so made some changes. :eek:
i believe every one has something to offer [ fighting ] what ever version of it people do is just the tip of the ice berg
10%
everything that builds you up that point , drills , solo, training , conditioning , research and so on is the foundation for skill development [ training system]
90%
fighting is the lab were we get personal experience in useing and dialing in those skills the training system exposed us to
so all the talkers , should feel proud to put there training methods up for all to see , especially when they mouth off on how they have the good wing chun or the secret scroll stuff .
but oddly those that sit back and talk the most smack about what is good and how they are lineage holders blah blah blah
are the ones that never show anything and when confronted talk about some one elses skill or some one elses video clip to prove there point never there own
so there just as bad if not worse then the fighters [ what ever that means ]
hell if you can back up what you say , put it up there ,
but of course they won’t , suddenly the get all humble
Okay, I’ve got one for you directly related to you last post.
In relation to shifting, the EBMAS school that Im currently at stresses a close arrow stance with 0-100 weighting…pivot point in the middle of the foot (not ball or heel) . I had come across this philosophy of weighting in other styles of gung fu from previous years, and had since done away with it due to it’s lack of mobility, and just general lack of effectiveness short of defending against lead leg kicks/sweeps.
Since then, in fighting, I’ve adopted a 50/50 weight dispertion at any given moment, on occasion shifting weight where need be but then going back to the 50/50 weighting. I did this because I performed better this way. I was able to move in any direction quicker, and easier.
Now…Im back to the 0-100 weighting with EBMAS. Go figure. I will keep an open mind with it and try it again, because apparently it works for Sifu Emin…I’ll try again to see if I can make it work for myself. Besides, I kind of have to do it this way while in that class. Oh well.
But there’s an example for ya~
Originally posted by old jong
We are still waiting to see something from those “fighters” :rolleyes: who are BTW the biggest “talkers” on this forum!..
Many have life experiences like what Joy posted about but it is getting less and less pleasant to “share” around here by the times being.
Jong ,
i know what you are saying , but i would be more impressed by the [ good wing chun is this and that not to be confused with blah blah blah ]
people to put up or shut up
people that fight have aggresive ways about them so they by that nature will mouth off
that is a given
it’s the high and mighty wing chun snobs i’m waiting on
as for sharing , Joy gets thumbs up man , those real life stories are the little things that keep us going and in check as far as what might and does happen outside the ring
i respect that , as you have shared your work experiences as well i respect that
no one can tell you anything about your personal experience it is yours end of story
as for this forum , yep it’s burning out quick , lines are gettng drawn in the sand , and people stopped listening a long time ago everyone seems to be just waiting for there turn to speak and say the same thing over and over andover and over …:rolleyes:
I prefer to stay out of this thread. I deleted my post for that reason.
Thanks for the post Van just the type of thing I was hoping for.
Ernie you have valid points but it doesnt get any of us anywhere if no one steps up and shares how they made their wing chun work.
There was a time one I first joined this forum way back when when people didnt just talk and put others down because they dont see that they are wrong. There were discussions that you could actually learn things from.
Everyone,well almost everyone ,knows there is a transition from training drills ,chi sao or what ever to real usage. so to keep repeating the mantra ‘you have to fight’ doesnt help nor will it open eyes. Providing actual examples that people can relate to might do that at least in some cases.
So come on follow Vans example give us just one thing that you were taught in a form or drill that you adjusted because of sparring or fighting or playing with your buds(thats how I look at it but many think I am a card short of a deck) or whatever.
Originally posted by hunt1
[B]Thanks for the post Van just the type of thing I was hoping for.
Ernie you have valid points but it doesnt get any of us anywhere if no one steps up and shares how they made their wing chun work.
There was a time one I first joined this forum way back when when people didnt just talk and put others down because they dont see that they are wrong. There were discussions that you could actually learn things from.
Everyone,well almost everyone ,knows there is a transition from training drills ,chi sao or what ever to real usage. so to keep repeating the mantra ‘you have to fight’ doesnt help nor will it open eyes. Providing actual examples that people can relate to might do that at least in some cases.
So come on follow Vans example give us just one thing that you were taught in a form or drill that you adjusted because of sparring or fighting or playing with your buds(thats how I look at it but many think I am a card short of a deck) or whatever. [/B]
Hunt,
first your right there was a time when this was a very healthy place for all to talk and share
i miss that time as well
as for things from the form , to be honest i’m beyond that now
i don’t think in tan,bong,and fook etc anymore
sure those were great guides to get the feeling of connection and structure
but they are fixed moments
i think more on timing , distance , feeling , reading a person
stuff like that
what i use at any given moment is not even a thought it just is what it is at that time and might be something else the next time
based on the person infront of me and what he offers
it’s one of the reasons i never get into technique conversations , it’s like disecting a corpse
argueing about a dead moment
sure in my first few years i was ver oppinionated about this or that angle
but now not so much
it’s more the concept and expressing that concept in motion while some one is trying to do there thing that peaks my interest
this is my transition from the training system [ forms ,chi sau. etc]
to being able to find the moments and apply the skills
then perhaps i will go back to the begining and look at all over again with personal experience and get a deeper understanding based on what i went through
you know i’m down to share ,
i’m just in a different phase right now
Originally posted by hunt1
[B]
I think one of the problems is is that wing chun body is different tahn what many are used to and it takes a long time to reprogram.
Its one thing to learn the mechanics another to apply them. I think that when application comes many revert to what is more natural.
[/B]
I think here is the issue.
For me,
learning about the mechanics is not equal to “Knowing”.
without “knowing” there is no way one can smoothly apply the technics.
IE. learning about how to punch doesnt mean one knows how to punch. to be able to use/apply the punch one has to know the punch.
However,
Today martial art world has a tendency of either stop at the studying mechanics step thinking that is ultimate or going from Learning the mechanics directly going into application without going through the “knowing” step thinking that is the ultimate.
Thus, my view on this so called talker and fighter stuffs exist because.
The one who learn the mechanics without “know” cant use the art even though one think one learn the mechanics. IE. learning a SLT set is not knowing the SLT set.
The one who learn the Application straight without knowing there is a step " Knowing the body of the art" take everyone who speak about the mechanics and process as one who just learn study the mechanics because one can use a certain technics or test a certain technics which the one who only learn the mechanics cant do. Thus, one in denial about lots of ancient teaching. IE. while fighting, that fighting is different to the practice of SLT set. they are not converge. the SLT practice one thing and fighting is another thing.
And the labering of this person is this and that person it that. goes on and make the seperation and opposition and feeding the who is superior trap which needs not to happen if the full view is seen. Taking one’s view as the truth without understand the existance of other path is be itself extreme act.
as for, “it takes a long time to reprogram.” that is an important issue because some technics wont work without the kung. and that become a big issue in today’s world of everything going the fast food way unfortunately. EI, with the capability of close range Kung, there is an immune power from being easily being taking down. Without the close range Kung, being taken down is 100%.
“knowing” is about Kung. Yes, Kung fu’s kung in the classical sense. As the shao Lin or Mas Oyama describe – without practice thousand of repetition on a proven process one simply dont know.
notice, the process is not about being able to talk theory or philosophy. such as, one can talk all day about Zen but cant even get to Theta everytime one sit in meditation. one needs the process to be able to surely get into Theta wave as one likes it.
On the other hand, without the philosophy it is also incomplete. with the same Zen example above. Zen meditation is to expand awareness. when one by tri and erro can get into certain alterstate while meditation doesnt mean one is doing expanding the awareness. so, not everything is Zen.
just some thoughts.
Originally posted by hunt1
[B]
Everyone,well almost everyone ,knows there is a transition from training drills ,chi sao or what ever to real usage. so to keep repeating the mantra ‘you have to fight’ doesnt help nor will it open eyes. Providing actual examples that people can relate to might do that at least in some cases.
[/B]
hunt1,
IMHO, my take on the weakess link which prohibit some WCner alots is the subsconcious rigid tensing between the lower back to the upper knees. This is one of the big issue of getting WCK into trouble from mobility, stablity, to power geneartion. This is a bad bad habit pick up during doing SLT without know the process of snake body.
Tensing this part habitually destroy the integration of the whole body. if this part of the body is integrate with ease then it will help the execution and flow of the momentum.
To be able to fight needs this part of the body to be well train. IMHHo.
on other hand, beside the Kung such as the Keng Geng… Thus i have heard, in the old time general fundamental knowledge of preparation for combat.
A
one has to know fighting has few general types of attact in order to be able to handle the battle zone big picture.
1, testing attact. 2, speedy attack. 3, power confrontation attact. 4, defence attact…ect
B
depend on the relative hieght, there also different approach to deal with the situation and selecting the path of trajectory and distance.
1, same height, 2, opponent is shorter, 3, opponent is taller, …
C
different type of opponent, to decide tactic, timing…
1, the type with defence and counter
2, the type with a certain well train moves
3, the type with fast attack.
4, the power confrontation..
5,…
D,
E,…etc
All of these above are some basic on how to handle the war zone, the paht, and the tactic , and more. These come with the training of the Woodern Dummy instead of just doing the dummy set and then doing the heavy bag and punch like a TKD.
But always the Kung is place as the most important because if one does not have the Kung to knock the other down. all of the above is useless. and the basic understanding such as the above is important both in understanding and doing drill with all different combination of possibility. so there is no one size fit all. lots of cases needs to be work out.
just a first 2 cents hope that this discussion can build up a contructive view to communicate and stop the labeling of as figther or talker… which is not solving any issue.
what’s a name?
The Greater Self (K. Gibran)
This came to pass. After the coronation of Nufsibaal King of Byblus, he retired to his bed-chamber – the very room which the three hermit-magicians of the mountains had built for him. He took off his crown and his royal raiment, and stood in the centre of the room thinking of himself, now the all-powerful ruler of Byblus.
Suddenly he turned; and he saw stepping out of the silver mirror which his mother had given him, a naked man.
The king was startled, and he cried out to the man, “What would you?”
And the naked man answered, “Naught but this: Why have they crowned you king?”
And the king answered, “Because I am the noblest man in the land.”
Then the naked man said, “If you were still more noble, you would not be king.”
And the king said, “Because I am the mightiest man in the land they crowned me.”
And the naked man said, “If you were mightier yet, you would not be king.”
Then the king said, “Because I am the wisest man they crowned me king.”
And the naked man said, “If you were still wiser you would not choose to be king.”
Then the king fell to the floor and wept bitterly.
The naked man looked down upon him. Then he took up the crown and with tenderness replaced it upon the king’s bent head.
And the naked man, gazing lovingly upon the king, entered into the mirror.
And the king roused, and straightway he looked into the mirror. And he saw there but himself crowned.
To postulate an answer to the question of this thread, “How does one fight with Wing Chun”, IMO first you have to learn how to control your own body, its structure and reaction. Everybody that comes in fresh has his or her own way to move and react. 99.9% of the time it is wrong, therefore inefficient and ineffective. This is achieved by a multitude of things combined and performed over and over again with more intensity added as one becomes more proficient, forms, drills, theory discussion, chi-sao. This is why we have manuals and books and videos, to learn these things and absorb them into ourselves to make it a part of the whole. One thing I also did to speed up this process was watch videos of my Sifu, over and over again performing the movements. I would go out to the bar for the night, come home put in the tape of the last Demo Sifu did and absorb the rhythm, timing, structure, etc.. of what perfect Wing Chun application means to me.
Once this has happened then you have to learn how to read the opponents intentions and apply the concepts, principals and techniques learned earlier. We use particular drills that teach this and as one becomes more skilled with it the randomness and sparring increases in intensity.
Now, since we all know that not everything is going to work perfectly, one has to learn to adapt and interrupt their movements and adjust what they are doing in one moment to something else effective in the next moment. Chi-sao and experience teach this, but to tell you the truth you won’t have to use this concept much, because IMO WC has so many back up and secondary defense structures/strategies and very good up front attacking strategies built into it that only when fighting very skilled opponents will those things apply, and how often is that going to happen.
Eventually I believe that an individual transcends the art totally and the Wing Chun becomes a part of them and they live the art in their everyday lives. Everything they do has a WC element in it and in essence they are practicing all the time.
Have I learned specific things through out the training and fighting? Yes, for one thing kicks are very hard to apply successfully in real fighting when the opponent is being defensive and reactive unless the opponent has no idea how to defend themselves against them. The time it takes to execute a kick, and bring it back to the ground and follow up requires more energy, time and space (HFY?) than to stay on your two feet and apply hand movements and such. Only when the opponent is advancing forward and has the intention to initiate the attacks will kicks work really well. Also, trying not to anticipate and letting the tools express themselves by themselves, and not trying to force things to come out. When I first started to spar I couldn’t chain punch and ended up just punching with my right-hand over and over again and I couldn’t understand it. After awhile the continuous chain punching came out and things started to work fine from there.
Just a perspective?
James