**I could kick CXW’s @ss;
CXW got scared off after reading this.
“CXW got scared off after reading this.”
It’s not about whether he’s scared off or not - it’s about the fact that he’s a good example of someone who doesn’t fight (or even spar with some heavy contact - that we know of)…but yet commands much respect from some people who are so impressed with demos, forms, drills, push hands, chi sao, etc. - that they have lost sight of the whole purpose of martial arts…being able to fight.
No amount of forms, drills, chi sao, etc. can ever take the place of actual fighting or hard sparring.
There is just so much more to fighting/sparring than what’s contained in all of the other above-mentioned scenarios.
It’s like a baseball player who never goes up against an opposing pitcher with a 95 mph fastball that catches the low inside corner for strike one…who might follow with another fastball at his head that knocks him down…who then throws a 68 mph change-up that’s low and away…might then throw a curve ball that backed him off the plate but caught the high inside corner for strike two…back to the 95 mph fastball for strike three on the low outside part of the plate.
Instead - This guy has never played in a real game…all this “player” has ever done has been batting practice against a pitcher who’s a friend of his - and who lobs the ball over the middle of the plate at 80 mph…tells him when he’s going to throw a curve…tells him when the slider is coming, etc.
and the result is that our “player” looks great hitting a bunch of balls deep to center or over the wall.
Big deal !
I’m waiting for the water polo analogy!..:rolleyes: 
Originally posted by t_niehoff
**I could kick CXW’s @ss
I’ve been looking for a good sig line. This is priceless.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B
**I could kick CXW’s @ss; so would Ernie, Andrew, and anyone else that fights as part of their training. CXW has no fighting skill.
**Other folks, like you, want to believe that they can increase their fighting performance without fighting (“either camp can fight”) – you are wrong. That position is refuted by evidence, by history and by how human beings improve in any physical activity. But, as I’ve repeatedly said, if you want to find out for yourself the validity of your position, there is an easy way to find out.
Regards,
Terence [/B]
Hi Terrence. Don’t get too worked up it’s bad for your heart. It’s only a discussion. For me I have seen people from both camps who can fight. There is no doubt about what you are saying will produce a good ring fighter. However you negate all fighters from any Kung Fu style, Silat style or whatever who don’t train in a boxing ring or train BJJ. I would love to see you fight someone from each of these arts and tell them to their face that they can’t fight.
Also I love to see you and Ernie and Andrew fight Chen XiaoWang. In fact there are maybe some better Tai Chi fighters in the South but I trust Chen XiaoWang can do a good job on you. You have never tried to fight him and so it’s easy to spout a lot of hot air like that. I can beat Mike Tyson as well and of course the dry land swimmer Chen XiaoWang.
First we are having a discussion. We have had enough fighters who fight and have people who cross train and have compared results. There is a difference between producing a fighter and producing the best fighter. Some of our students have never had a fight in their life but survived fighting on the street. Thet fought. They were fighters. That’s not to say that what you are advocating wouldn’t have made them better. No argument there.
In my Hung style training the Drill and then they fight. I know a couple of top students were into multiple opponent fights putting all into the hospital. In one fight they guys in the hospital had bicycle chains. Other students we have had have competed in tournaments, had fights as bouncers, have had fights as part of their police work or have had fights as part of their correctional institute (jail) jobs. Also I met two who regularly fought as part of their drug gang activity. That experience is not part of your experience so you just can’t relate to it and that’s fine. We are just sharing experiences.
My Hung style teacher (James Lore in Toronto) did nothing but fight in his early days. They did forms , then they drilled and drilled and then they fought and fought. He taught the same way and some of his students were very good. One student trained many years just to get in to a fast kicker. That’s what it took. One he was in, they were dead. There are just different ways to train which can produce good fighting results. I have seen lots of good fighters in my years in different arts and they didn’t hang around in boxing clubs or train BJJ. None of the Hung style guys did. Joe Lewis was a Karate blackbelt in about 6 months. In his first few ring matches he was already a terror in the ring. He went from forms and drills into the ring. Successive fights of course made him better.
I certainly don’t say that what any of the type A personality fighters say about fighting intensively each day against opponents you don’t know is a bad thing. It’s a very good thing if you want to be a good fighter. No one can deny that that’s the best way if like to do thatt. The best is actual street fighting if you are training for that and constant ring fighting of you are training for that. For ring fighting, Wing Chun training is not the best and it is better to just switch to the arts and training methodologies that have proved effective. If I was training to compete in the ring, then I certainly wouldn’t be training in Wing Chun. If I am training to survive in the street then I wouldn’t limit myself to Wing Chun either. I would definitely train stick , knife and gun as well as any other kind of street tactics that work. Still that might not be as good as our premier training academies known as jail or as mind toughening as spending time fighting in Iraq. The latter forms of training are really the best.
I think if I take a type A aggressive personality and drill him to death then there won’t be any doubt that he could fight. But to compare fighters and training methods that is a different story. That’s why we have a million kinds of fighting arts because no one can agree.
We have fighters. We have people who cross train. None of use were born yesterday and we aren’t 20 year olds who know everything and yet don’t know what we are talking about.
It’s very easy to say that to become a fighter you have to go out and fight. That kind of statement is obvious. But that kind of statement seems very useful to tack on to the end of every thread. It’s a lot harder to have an intelligent discussion about the details of training methods which can apply to a wide variety of individuals to produce good results. Fortunately a few other more useful threads are starting up to discuss these other issues. There is only so much mileage you can get out of the dry land swimming analogy. Maybe switch to race car driving or something else for variety to spice up this talk.
So let’s start a betting pool of who will win, Chen Xiaowang or Terrence. Maybe Terrence can barge in on his seminar like Emin Boztepe did to William Cheung and prove it this way with the cameras rolling. The video would make millions and then everyone involved could retire to the beach.
Originally posted by old jong
I’m waiting for the water polo analogy!..:rolleyes:
I am waiting for all the talkers to produce one good fighter who can show the world that Wing Chun really works. I don’t see that day coming. Valuable training time is being lost discussing instead of training for such an event. We need a committee to organize the event. We need to select a lineage willing to train the fighter. I’ll take the bets and award the prizes.
Originally posted by SevenStar
Hi SevenStar,
I agree with your comments. All this is just to get discussion going but it would be nice to get to something concrete as well such as experiences and lessons learned from the fighters. BJJ has many good ideas that anyone can work on and try. Telling someone just to go in the ring against a good Thai boxer and fight just isn’t very useful. I already know something will break if I do that. I don’t need to try and block a roundhouse kick with a Gan sau to know that my arms will break. I will accept the opinions of those who tried that.
I think there has to be a progression and not day 1 sign up for Wing Chun and day 2 fight a Thai boxer. I think that’s the model proposed by Terrence: day 1 throw the student off the highest diving board into the pool and day 2 see if he comes around for further lessons.
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]“CXW got scared off after reading this.”
It’s not about whether he’s scared off or not - it’s about the fact that he’s a good example of someone who doesn’t fight (or even spar with some heavy contact - that we know of)…but yet commands much respect from some people who are so impressed with demos, forms, drills, push hands, chi sao, etc. - that they have lost sight of the whole purpose of martial arts…being able to fight.
Big deal ! [/B]
It would be interesting to hear what the Tai Chi people think about that. I think I will arrange a match between one of our people who fights and him. If the money is right like a few million dollars then that would be great. It will put the Tai Chi theory that they can fight to rest once and for all. There are just too many people wasting their time doing this useless form of activity when they should be training full contact in the ring.
Actually I would love to see Emin Boztepe vs Chen XiaoWang. I wonder what can be learned from such a match. The public match between Crane style and Wu style certainly wasn’t impressive. In that case Emin would have taken them both at the same time.
Where is the popcorn for the virtual reality internet shows?
Also I love to see you and Ernie and Andrew fight Chen XiaoWang
whoopie !!!
now i have to go beat up old tai chi guys
been there done that , not this particular individual , of course he might have special powers
:o
but so far one master dude said he was from shaolin , don’t know his name i suck a chinese barely remember yip man
and about 2 months ago some idiot given me crap for useing sticks and protective gear at the park
it was drawing attention from his [ shine ]
said it wasnot needed [sound familer]
and he got dropped and his pretty white pajamas dirty
[ both guys had terrible foot work and couldn’t time a broken rythem entry . i slapped one in the nuts and kneed the other in they thigh as he leaned back and tried to absorb my high line
the pain shot froze both guys up and both got reaped to the floor
, i made it a point to break there root ,]
what does it all mean
----- nothing----- i was better prepared next time i may not be
who cares life goes on
styles don’t fight people do
now back to bum fights :rolleyes:
why don’t terrance and ray meet slap each other around and compare training methods
now that would be just as fun , right ?
Originally posted by t_niehoff
**I could kick CXW’s @ss; so would Ernie, Andrew, and anyone else that fights as part of their training. CXW has no fighting skill…
We are indeed from different planets.
Regards,
- Kathy Jo
No comment.
No need. I can read your mind.
- kj
Originally posted by kj
[B]No need. I can read your mind.
- kj [/B]
that’s some high level chi sau skill you got there lady 
Originally posted by Ernie
that’s some high level chi sau skill you got there lady
Ha! Call it a knack. You’re next.
- kj
[QUOTE]Originally posted by YongChun
[B]Hi SevenStar,
I agree with your comments. All this is just to get discussion going but it would be nice to get to something concrete as well such as experiences and lessons learned from the fighters. BJJ has many good ideas that anyone can work on and try. Telling someone just to go in the ring against a good Thai boxer and fight just isn’t very useful.[/b]
That’s just the thing… it IS useful - once you do it. We can talk and theorize all day - this is a discussion forum after all - but at the end of the day, you haven’t actually learned anything in the way of fighting other than more theory.
I already know something will break if I do that. I don’t need to try and block a roundhouse kick with a Gan sau to know that my arms will break. I will accept the opinions of those who tried that.
lol, coincidentally, I know of people who say they they can…
QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ernie
[B]why don’t terrance and ray meet slap each other around and compare training methods
now that would be just as fun , right ? [/B]
That wouldn’t mean anything because I don’t claim to be anything. But Chen XiaoWang claims to be a master and Terrence claims he can beat him. So that’s why this would be a good match. I want to see the soft internal beat the hard external like all the books say.
Originally posted by SevenStar
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by YongChun
I agree with your comments. All this is just to get discussion going but it would be nice to get to something concrete as well such as experiences and lessons learned from the fighters. BJJ has many good ideas that anyone can work on and try. Telling someone just to go in the ring against a good Thai boxer and fight just isn’t very useful.
That’s just the thing… it IS useful - once you do it. We can talk and theorize all day - this is a discussion forum after all - but at the end of the day, you haven’t actually learned anything in the way of fighting other than more theory.
[QUOTE] [/B]
It’s not useful at all. You’d just get beaten up.
You guys don’t even know how the Thai’s train: How can you compete against them? It’s pure arrogance to think you can just go in the ring like that.
Originally posted by YongChun
If I was training to compete in the ring, then I certainly wouldn’t be training in Wing Chun.
Bloody right. Because it’s hasn’t technically got enough to survive in the ring. It’s as plain as day that most WC people aren’t skilled in enough. Poor defence against kicks in a kickboxing match? What the hell did they think would happen? This is a technical weakness.
All this talk about who can kick who’s @ss is a joke. No WC people train at a professional enough level to even talk about pro fighting. Learn from the pros first hand. In Muay Thai/kickboxing, AFAIK Thailand, Japan and to a far lesser extent China have a truly professional industry. Go there and ACTUALLY learn rather than perpetuate the bum fighting industry. Western countries don’t quite have the same level of professionalism in kickboxing but it’s growing.
Originally posted by Edmund
It’s not useful at all. You’d just get beaten up.
You guys don’t even know how the Thai’s train: How can you compete against them? It’s pure arrogance to think you can just go in the ring like that.
I wasn’t referring to stepping in the ring as the second lesson. If you had actually read the post I was replying to, he was saying that he’s trying to have a discussion about fighter’s experiences and such. he was saying that telling him to get into a ring isn’t useful. I say that it is.
My impression from the posts already made in this thread is that both Ray and Terrence agree on actually using WCK to fight, as opposed to doing forms ad nauseum; the major contention is the time frame. By “fight”, I am “redefining” this to mean someone outside of your own school.
Terrence is advocating for pretty much from “day one”, and Ray advocates the “traditional” approach of a foundation in the forms, drills, and possibly sparring before going out to “challenge” practitioners of other arts.
Correct me if my impressions are wrong.