Fighters and Non-fighters

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

Hi Terrence. Don’t get too worked up it’s bad for your heart.

**I’m not worked up, just making my point. Nonfighters who see folks “move” or “touch hands” may be impressed; fighters that see the same thing, because of their experience fighting, will not be impressed. FWIW, you could replace CXW with just about any “name” in WCK or any other nonfighting “master”; they can’t have good fighting skill simply because to get it they must fight (and if they don’t, they’ll never increase their fighting performance).

It’s only a discussion. For me I have seen people from both camps who can fight. There is no doubt about what you are saying will produce a good ring fighter. However you negate all fighters from any Kung Fu style, Silat style or whatever who don’t train in a boxing ring or train BJJ. I would love to see you fight someone from each of these arts and tell them to their face that they can’t fight.

**The venue, ring or cage or alley or gym, may change our fighting tactics but the core fighting skills remain the same – and if you’ve never fought to develop them you won’t have them regardless of the venue.

Also I love to see you and Ernie and Andrew fight Chen XiaoWang. In fact there are maybe some better Tai Chi fighters in the South but I trust Chen XiaoWang can do a good job on you. You have never tried to fight him and so it’s easy to spout a lot of hot air like that. I can beat Mike Tyson as well and of course the dry land swimmer Chen XiaoWang.

**You can “trust” all you want – that’s what nonfighters do well, btw. I don’t need trust; I believe my eyes. There is a huge difference between Tyson and Shamrock (who you mentioned before) and CXW; the former fight, the latter doesn’t. I would make no claims about the former as they have real fighting skill. And face it, CXW would never fight anyone (insert WCK master name here too), because if he did everyone would see his lack of fighting skill and he wouldn’t be able to make a living with his seminars. The difference with MMAist, BJJist, boxers, wrestlers, kyokushinkai, muay thai, etc, is that all these folks fight from the get go (that’s why they develop fighting skill) and have no compunction about stepping up at any moment (the sign, btw, of someone that has skill – they have no problem showing it); everyone knows they can fight, have seen them fight, etc. whereas the “nonfighting masters of fighting” have never fought (certainly no one with any significant level of skill), don’t fight, but want to show you their deadly skill via forms and drills. And the nonfighters eat it up.

---

KJ wrote:

We are indeed from different planets.

**No. The only reason folks can believe (and it is belief since you have not seen him fight) CXW can fight is they buy into the notion that someone can significantly increase their fighting performance ability without fighting. But if one genuinely practices a martial art (training to become a better fighter) they’ll see the point of my claim about CXW – it’s a no-brainer – that to increase their performance in any physical activity to a significant degree requires one actually do the activity. Go ask anyone that really fights as part of their training whether they could beat someone who never fights but only does forms and drills and they’ll tell you the same thing.

---

Edmund wrote:

All this talk about who can kick who’s @ss is a joke.

**It was meant to make a point and nothing more.

No WC people train at a professional enough level to even talk about pro fighting.

**It’s not so simple a distinction between pro and everything else. I train with some pro NHB fighters; I’ve also trained with some pro thai boxers. I know WCK people that train against pro cage fighters, NHBers, thai boxers, etc.

Learn from the pros first hand. In Muay Thai/kickboxing, AFAIK Thailand, Japan and to a far lesser extent China have a truly professional industry. Go there and ACTUALLY learn rather than perpetuate the bum fighting industry. Western countries don’t quite have the same level of professionalism in kickboxing but it’s growing.

**The western countries seem to be doing OK in vale tudo/NHB events, and don’t see the thai’s dominating. I’d say Randy Couture is a pro

Regards,

Terence

[t_niehoff]

YongChun wrote:

That wouldn’t mean anything because I don’t claim to be anything. But Chen XiaoWang claims to be a master and Terrence claims he can beat him. So that’s why this would be a good match. I want to see the soft internal beat the hard external like all the books say.

**Internal/external are labels that nonfighters use.

---

CFT wrote:

My impression from the posts already made in this thread is that both Ray and Terrence agree on actually using WCK to fight, as opposed to doing forms ad nauseum; the major contention is the time frame. By “fight”, I am “redefining” this to mean someone outside of your own school.

**Fighting is an environment where you face genuinely resisting opponents that are really trying to defeat you, take your head off, etc. In school, out of school, anywhere.

Terrence is advocating for pretty much from “day one”, and Ray advocates the “traditional” approach of a foundation in the forms, drills, and possibly sparring before going out to “challenge” practitioners of other arts.

Correct me if my impressions are wrong.

**The “traditional” approach isn’t IMO all that “traditional” – except that it is the approach favored by nonfighters. All the good WCK ancestors “went out and tested it for themselves” (Yip’s words); that’s why they became good. But you are correct that I advocate fighting as a regular part of one’s training, and from the very beginning. The “challenge” is btw of oneself not others.

Regards,

Terence

[CFT]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
**The “traditional” approach isn’t IMO all that “traditional” – except that it is the approach favored by nonfighters. All the good WCK ancestors “went out and tested it for themselves” (Yip’s words); that’s why they became good.
Again, I think it is just the timeframe that is at issue. Ray’s example of the Hung style fighters was that they did go out and fight, but only after years (I guess) of forms and drills - I don’t think he mentioned much about sparring within the school(s).

But you are correct that I advocate fighting as a regular part of one’s training, and from the very beginning. The “challenge” is btw of oneself not others.
I absolutely agree. Even just sparring within the club, I find that it is a million miles from forms and drills. I’m getting hit a lot, but I hope that I am making progress albeit at a slow rate.

[t_niehoff]

Let me just add (to respond to an offlist email):

I’m not suggesting that CXW can’t teach tai ji – certainly he has the tai ji method (forms, drills, oral tradition). Those don’t, however, confer fighting skill; they are prep work. Fighting skill (skill in using the method) is individual and comes from fighting.

No one would suggest that someone that has never boxed would be (or could be) a good boxer or someone that never wrestled would be (or could be) good wrestler or someone that never rolled would (or could be) be a good BJJist (though they may know the forms, drills, and oral tradition of their methods) – because it is understood that “good” means being able to actually fight with your fighting method. “Good” is a performance-based judgment. So how can one say CXW is “good” – that is, can fight with his method – if we’ve never seen him fight (perform), and he never fought (performed) as part of his training? Folks do that by looking at how he “moves” in cooperative demonstration and how well he is able to do certain drills (“push hands”) and infer that those will transfer to fighting (“he’s great at that, so he must be able to fight”). It doesn’t work like that and folks that have fighting experience, particularly against skilled folks, recognize that.

One of the “best” examples of the “great masters from the past” (and I think you can find this on the web) is the video of the famous tai ji vs. white crane (?) “fight”. These are the type of “masters” that folks revere with “stories” about how great they were. But when we see them, we see that they had very little fighting skill. It’s no reflection on them personally (they may have been wonderful people) or their fighting methods: it is a reflection on their training.

Regards,

Terence

[Ultimatewingchun]

“Bloody right. Because it (Wing Chun) hasn’t technically got enough to survive in the ring. It’s as plain as day that most WC people aren’t skilled in enough. Poor defence against kicks in a kickboxing match? What the hell did they think would happen? This is a technical weakness.”
(Edmund)

And this comes from Yongchun - on the very first post on this thread:

“Terrence has stated that there are fighters and non-fighters and that’s all. I tend to agree with that. However I put those who do chi sau, drills and forms in the same category as those who put on protection and spar or those who roll around on rubber mats all day long in the same category.”

Chi sao, drills, forms - all train a system that specializes in a close-quarter hand striking system with some close quarter kicking (that’s used sparingly)…it’s mainly striking at close range…some sweeps…some arm/wristlocking…but at the end of the day…

it’s mainly a close quarter hand striking system.

The systems in question on this thread other than Wing Chun (Muay-Thai, BJJ, Kickboxing)…are systems that use a different fighting emphasis (ie.- BJJ is almost exclusively a groundgrappling system…Muay-Thai - though it does include fighting in the clinch (elbows and knees)…still maintains a different emphasis than Wing Chun…kickboxing is ususally a longer range type of fight than Wing Chun, etc…etc…

and these systems (other than wing chun) emphasize sparring, grappling, fighting as a major part of the training from almost day one (throw in Kyokushin as well).

And the “technical weaknesses” of Wing Chun can only be corrected/updated through competition…ie. hard sparring/fighting on a regular basis. (And some wc people/systems have kept up with the competition…have made adaptations to successfully counter kickers, for example…have brought more light-on-the-feet footwork to the table - in recent years/decades).

But many still cling to the idea that “classical” wing chun (for lack of a better term)…needs no adaptations…needs no hard sparring…needs no fighting in competitions…but rather, chi sao, forms, and drills are enough.

Enough for what?

For fighting in yesterday’s world? Or today’s world?

Chi sao, forms, wc drills, etc…CAN add much to the arsenal of a good fighter…but more is required…including frequent hard sparring/fighting…as well as some adaptations/additions to the classical program…to cover the other fighting ranges and points of emphasis (ie. - let’s see you get to the close quarter hand-striking range and stay there long enough to finish the job against a skilled NHB/MMA fighter…Mr. classical wing chun - while limiting yourself to just using the old strategies, training methods, and footwork from the past).

Time to grow - and that has to include frequent hard contact sparring…as well as some crosstraining in styles that emphasize other fighting ranges and strategies.

[Vajramusti]

FWIW-

1. I dont see the relevance of injecting CXW in the discussion.He does not do wing chun… and I dont think that he would be interested in fighting Terence. His context would be Terence who?
   His moves unlike most taichi folks are powerful and not just in appearance and demo.He has impeccable timing.

BTW I have seen him put a big guy down on his face and could have broken the guy’s shoulder if he wanted to. The guy wanted to see what CXW could do for real and CXW ageed to it on that occasion. Several years ago in Germany someone attacked him from behind. A classic Chen elbow to the guy’s sternum sent the guy to the hospital with heart fibrillation.
If you dont like first rate Chen taiji its ok. Why drag him into this silly discussion and chest pounding?

Tyson, Lennox Lewis, and so many others wouldnt fight any of the vociferous members of this list either. The vociferous list folks couldnt put up enough money- except engaging in sarcasm and usual xxxxchat. There wouldnt be enough money for Tyson in his prime to fight one of the Gracies. They (Tyson and co) ignored a Royce challenge-do ya think it was out of fear. In the common lingo of the forum-get real. Tyson has gone downhill in his skills
and like Joe Louis to make a buck may be available for caricature grappling shows

I havent seen much of Mike Sigman on the net lately and I have not gone to rec.ma in along long time..but Mike asa chen stylist
can and did appear at people’s doors if challenged. Chen style can be used for fighting- but I prefer wing chun.

2. Why not take all these fighting discussions to the reality fighting section of kfo? there is darnn little discussion of wing chun
   here anyhow. There are wing chun people who “spar” and have fought- and yes against resisting opponents from other styles.

People who test their abilities in “real” events dont always come on chat lists and they get nothing out of a mag story.

On the list there seems to be an assumption at times that the forum captures all wing chun activities in the discussions. We are taken in by all the media marketing associated with various sporting contests.

BTW Seven Star or Gene or Sandman- for a kung fu forum there is surprisingly little discussions of the details of various kung fu styles. Top quality jook lum teachers dont contribute to the southern forum.
Top level taiji teachers dont contribute to the taiji forum. The general forum has discussions on every conceivable chit chat- not much kung fu there either.

In the atmosphere of mass media and mass socirty, — wing chun, taichi, various southern and northern arts have spread with uneven quality control and displaced by sporting events involving many able athletes. Now comparing good CMA with sporting events is an apples and oranges kind of comparison.

There is a big difference between top quality and average quality
teaching and skill development in CMA and most people are unwilling to spend the quality time and effort in a specific CMA…which is ok.But it is plain silly to engage in chest pounding
and comparing activities without a common analytical framework.
And short of a real all styles beimo among the best- never has happened and never will (money)— all we do is “analysis” and that rather badly IMO.

Real duels are illegal and what we often do is simulation of fighting real or verbal. Some simulations look more real than others.

In knife fighting discussions for instance - how many Gurkhas with real experience come on board to chit chat. In reality discussions how many real “OZ” survivors come on board to participate in these keyboard discussions.

Upping the level of analysis rather than chest beating and noise is what constructive forums can do.

[kj1]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]I’m not suggesting that CXW can’t teach tai ji – certainly he has the tai ji method (forms, drills, oral tradition). Those don’t, however, confer fighting skill; they are prep work. Fighting skill (skill in using the method) is individual and comes from fighting.

.
.
.

“Good” is a performance-based judgment. So how can one say CXW is “good” – that is, can fight with his method – if we’ve never seen him fight (perform), and he never fought (performed) as part of his training?
[/b]

You acknowledged his method … you acknowledged that it’s prep work … he can indeed be “good” in that much [and is].

Folks do that by looking at how he “moves” in cooperative demonstration and how well he is able to do certain drills (“push hands”) and infer that those will transfer to fighting (“he’s great at that, so he must be able to fight”). It doesn’t work like that and folks that have fighting experience, particularly against skilled folks, recognize that.

You consistently oversimplify. It is more than “look” and “drills.” I think we are both aware there is more to be gained from “feel” than from appearance or mechanical repetitions.

I think you’d furthermore have a hard time convincing those who’ve been injured from his “gentle playing around” (and there have been those, FWIW) that he has no skill transferrable to fighting. Because you weren’t there or have knowledge of his [or others’] every movement and experience doesn’t negate them.

I don’t know all of what he’s done or experienced in private, and I doubt you do either. To my mind, you make a lot of large leaps and generalizations for convenience of your arguments (about CXW and just about everyone else). Unfortunately, these kinds of non-validated assumptions seem to comprise a large part in your arguments which are occasionally interesting in other respects.

The same reservations to your arguments apply to others in Wing Chun, not just CXW or those in other MAs.

FWIW and IMHO, the previous statement about kicking his @$$ was an inappropriate thing to write, on about a dozen levels. I realize that you pride yourself in being provocative, and that such concerns are more in my purview.

On a more practical and substantive level, you have yet to explain to the audience your superior method of connecting Wing Chun “drills” and “techniques” to “real fighting” (reference your post and my subsequent questions on the What level are you? thread).

It would also be enlightening to hear more specifics about your and your students’ successes as a result of superior training methods.

Regards,

• kj

[Edmund]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]---------------------------------

Edmund wrote:

All this talk about who can kick who’s @ss is a joke.

**It was meant to make a point and nothing more.

No WC people train at a professional enough level to even talk about pro fighting.

**It’s not so simple a distinction between pro and everything else. I train with some pro NHB fighters; I’ve also trained with some pro thai boxers. I know WCK people that train against pro cage fighters, NHBers, thai boxers, etc.

Learn from the pros first hand. In Muay Thai/kickboxing, AFAIK Thailand, Japan and to a far lesser extent China have a truly professional industry. Go there and ACTUALLY learn rather than perpetuate the bum fighting industry. Western countries don’t quite have the same level of professionalism in kickboxing but it’s growing.

**The western countries seem to be doing OK in vale tudo/NHB events, and don’t see the thai’s dominating. I’d say Randy Couture is a pro

Regards,

Terence [/B]

No. You haven’t trained with pros unless you’ve trained in a country where they have a healthy professional fighting industry. America in Muay Thai and NHB is nowhere near the level of professionalism that is in Thailand and Japan. Especially Muay Thai. NHB is not at that level either. They have bouts every day of week in Bangkok at either of the 2 main stadiums or the local TV station where the best bouts are held. It’s a true profession somewhat like being a horseracing jockey.

It’s got nothing to do with who they beat. If you went to Thailand and went to see who the best were, you’d already know why. They are the home of Muay Thai and the authorities on it. All the technical bouts that Thai’s consider the best are from fighters under 120lbs. How are they going to enter the fat-arse UFC or even kickboxing in fat America? If you haven’t been there, you haven’t seen the best.

Their training methods are distinct and actually don’t involve that much sparring because the Thai’s understand that it would injure their fighters too much. They fight too often for hard sparring. They “spar” with the pad holder. The pad holder will kick and punch them but the pads are the targets not the holder. And they don’t brawl with the pad holder. They are guided so the pad holder should be a skilled teacher.

Even the best Thai fights themselves are NOT “trying to take each others heads off” style fights. Because they are too evenly matched to do overcommitted brawling. It’s very much a points battle with very technical skills. The judging in Thailand is based on clean technique not who does the most damage. If you watch, 75-80% of a Muay Thai bout is close range fighting. Clinching, kneeing, elbowing, & throwing. My Thai trainer said exactly the same thing. It’s not that much kicking or punching.

Like I said: Go to the real pros. You’ll learn more.

[kj1]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
[B]KJ wrote:

We are indeed from different planets.

**No. The only reason folks can believe (and it is belief since you have not seen him fight) CXW can fight is they buy into the notion that someone can significantly increase their fighting performance ability without fighting. But if one genuinely practices a martial art (training to become a better fighter) they’ll see the point of my claim about CXW – it’s a no-brainer – that to increase their performance in any physical activity to a significant degree requires one actually do the activity. Go ask anyone that really fights as part of their training whether they could beat someone who never fights but only does forms and drills and they’ll tell you the same thing.
[/B]

I don’t know who you are talking to, but it obviously isn’t me.

Regards,

• kj

[Ernie]

edmund,[[Their training methods are distinct and actually don’t involve that much sparring because the Thai’s understand that it would injure their fighters too much. They fight too often for hard sparring. They “spar” with the pad holder. The pad holder will kick and punch them but the pads are the targets not the holder. And they don’t brawl with the pad holder. They are guided so the pad holder should be a skilled teacher.]]]

first off good post , I have experienced the difference in a boxing level from guys the box and pro’s

there a world apart , and they train more on attribute [ keeping there tools sharp ] light work ,conditioning work and a lot of mitt work

which leads me to what you wrote

when I trained in MT this is how I was shown , when I trained in boxing / savate when ever I went to do some private training with any one that was a pro or worked with them this is the method of training they used

this mitt feeder method is something I do allot of in my coaching and am still developing ways to use it in Wing Chun development

I’m not talking about just holding up a mitt and having people hit it , but flowing moving punching kicking , clinch , kicks elbows knees and take downs and finishing on the ground with kicks knees and kicks

giving different reads , broken rhythm ,slipping out , jamming them , making things rough so they can feel there way though and deliver with power and clarity

as far as prep work goes this is a great tool , and it test people’s endurance balance and adaptability .

I always wondered why more people didn’t incorporate it in the WC training ,

now it is very demanding on the part of the coach you have to be fit enough to feed this type of energy to a few guys in a row , and it will take a toll on your body , trust me I know

but far less the days when I would have to hard core spar everything

oh well just wanted to highlight on something you said that has been true in my observations as well and I have personally seen great results form this training with minimal injuries

back to my daddy can kick you daddy Ass

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Vajramusti
2. Why not take all these fighting discussions to the reality fighting section of kfo? there is darnn little discussion of wing chun
here anyhow. There are wing chun people who “spar” and have fought- and yes against resisting opponents from other styles.

My guess is that WC guys are interested in how WC would handle such training, situations, etc. As yongchun stated, he’s interested in hearing different people’s experiences. There are more WC guys here than anywhere else on the forum, so naturally, he will post his topic here.

People who test their abilities in “real” events dont always come on chat lists and they get nothing out of a mag story.

depends on the definition of “real” several people on the forum - merryprankster, shaolintiger00, suntzu, musicalkatachamp, myself, evolutionfist, mutant warrior, khun khao, shooter’s students, etc. compete in various things from mma to san shou, just not on a professional level.

[b]BTW Seven Star or Gene or Sandman- for a kung fu forum there is surprisingly little discussions of the details of various kung fu styles. Top quality jook lum teachers dont contribute to the southern forum.

Top level taiji teachers dont contribute to the taiji forum. The general forum has discussions on every conceivable chit chat- not much kung fu there either.[/b]

The open forum is the catch all - it’s for everything, as there is no general forum. The ORA is another catch all, but is not as popular, so most posts go through the main forum. The southern forum is pretty much always on topic, as are the other forums. As for the quality of some of the poster’s threads or the skill level of people on this forum, we can’t help that. Another thing to mention is that the forums are used by more than just CMA. I for example train bjj, judo and thai boxing. I no longer train CMA. There are several judoka, mma, bjj guys and karateka here as well. Naturally, the topics will stray from merely kung fu. Also, you have the “converts” and the guys who cross train with other styles. KFM is quite diverse. It’s original intention may have been for cma only discussion, but it’s grown into more than that.

In the atmosphere of mass media and mass socirty, — wing chun, taichi, various southern and northern arts have spread with uneven quality control and displaced by sporting events involving many able athletes. Now comparing good CMA with sporting events is an apples and oranges kind of comparison.

What happened to the quality control? Don’t you think that some form of competition would help keep everything in check? some way to verify claims people make?

[b]In knife fighting discussions for instance - how many Gurkhas with real experience come on board to chit chat. In reality discussions how many real “OZ” survivors come on board to participate in these keyboard discussions.

Upping the level of analysis rather than chest beating and noise is what constructive forums can do. [/B]

Once again, we have no control over who posts. We don’t send out invitations to certain masters or anything of the sort. there are some people here and there though, for example, shuai chiao master john wang posted here for a short time last year.

[KingMonkey]

Their training methods are distinct and actually don’t involve that much sparring because the Thai’s understand that it would injure their fighters too much. They fight too often for hard sparring. They “spar” with the pad holder. The pad holder will kick and punch them but the pads are the targets not the holder. And they don’t brawl with the pad holder. They are guided so the pad holder should be a skilled teacher.

Edmund, as Ernie alluded to this sort of training method is no great secret and quite widespread in the boxing/mma world.
Although you are certainly right to say that you need to be skilled to hold the focus mitts and feed the other guy properly.

[Vajramusti]

Seven Star sez: (Cooments in brackets)

BTW Seven Star or Gene or Sandman- for a kung fu forum there is surprisingly little discussions of the details of various kung fu styles. Top quality jook lum teachers dont contribute to the southern forum.

Top level taiji teachers dont contribute to the taiji forum. The general forum has discussions on every conceivable chit chat- not much kung fu there either.

As for the quality of some of the poster’s threads or the skill level of people on this forum, we can’t help that.

((Help that? Depends on whether the forums are intended to deal with volume or quality. Same for publications- I understand the market considerations involved))

It’s original intention may have been for cma only discussion, but it’s grown into more than that.

((Or imo- less than that))

What happened to the quality control?

((Not much there- in a public way… in many activities-except fpr NFL, some top level boxing and sporting activities-yes))

Don’t you think that some form of competition would help keep everything in check? some way to verify claims people make?

(((The key factor is money for these things. Unless money or principle (family survival. personal self edfense) is involved why would competent people waste their times- specially with some of the verbally aggressive and vocal list participants? The development of martial skill has often been for the most part a solitary enterprise. TKD and co are ok are ok for large group drils- army training in some places etc.))

Upping the level of analysis rather than chest beating and noise is what constructive forums can do.

Once again, we have no control over who posts.

((In part yes- which accounts for the dowbslides in levels of conversations. I appreciate the time that volunteer moderators give to the forums…but moderators can raise the level of conersations too- more so than has been the case))

We don’t send out invitations to certain masters or anything of the sort.
((Understandable. Most dont bother with forums and chit chat. Top level boxing trainers and coaches dont appear in boxing chats either. For the most part there is just careless shooting the breeze- that cumulatively adds to the ignorance of a lot of people on a variety of skilled activities. But they help pay the bills for events, and mags and movies))

there are some people here and there though, for example, shuai chiao master john wang posted here for a short time last year.

(The shuai choa master made a brief appearance and was criticized at first- people didnt know what they had. There was an apology- then the guy disappeared. Sometimes whena competent person makes a remark it can sound trivial or even wrong without decent tacit knowledge about the subject or the experience of the commentator.

In sports the devlopment of excellence and testing continues.
No such parallel exists in the martial arts-

People involved in real fights with real damage are not likely to jabber much in public- in our era of civil and criminal litigation and charges.

So the search for truly first rate CMA teachers- not sports, wushu
etc requires great efforts on the part of students.

Most will (and probably should) stick to sports and vicariously get their martial jollies and virtual realities.))

Gotta go away for a while. Cheers.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Edmund
No. You haven’t trained with pros unless you’ve trained in a country where they have a healthy professional fighting industry.

Not true. A professional is a professional. You fight? you get paid for it? you qualify. UFC and other venues are indeed professional venues. As with anything else, quality of some pros may differ, but they are pro nontheless. As for mma, you want to look at brazil, not japan…

Their training methods are distinct and actually don’t involve that much sparring because the Thai’s understand that it would injure their fighters too much. They fight too often for hard sparring. They “spar” with the pad holder. The pad holder will kick and punch them but the pads are the targets not the holder. And they don’t brawl with the pad holder. They are guided so the pad holder should be a skilled teacher.

the difference here is that they fight like once a week. Those who don’t need to spar. It’s not uncommon for someone in thailand to have over 50 fights by the time they are 20. Naturally, they wouldn’t spar. Some of them fight more than other MA even spar…

even the best Thai fights themselves are NOT “trying to take each others heads off” style fights. Because they are too evenly matched to do overcommitted brawling. It’s very much a points battle with very technical skills. The judging in Thailand is based on clean technique not who does the most damage. If you watch, 75-80% of a Muay Thai bout is close range fighting. Clinching, kneeing, elbowing, & throwing. My Thai trainer said exactly the same thing. It’s not that much kicking or punching.

the first round is usually to feel eachother out - see what their opponent is like. The fight gets more intense as the rounds progress. Knees and elbows cause more pain than punches. Also, thai fighting is big on people response - the crowd likes knees. The crowd likes varied skills.

Like I said: Go to the real pros. You’ll learn more.

I don’t disagree that you will learn more in thailand than in the us. However, even in the us, those who fight will learn more about fighting than those who don’t.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by KingMonkey
Edmund, as Ernie alluded to this sort of training method is no great secret and quite widespread in the boxing/mma world.
Although you are certainly right to say that you need to be skilled to hold the focus mitts and feed the other guy properly.

King M

Then perhaps we can salvage this discussion ,
–focus mitt and pad/ bag work and who it benefits or does not benefit wing Chun training
= how to feed the mitts ?
= how to work it progressively into a live enviroment
= how to work the pads / bags

a lot of arguments here have been on the benefits on fighting or what ever definition one may have for that .
for some it just is a natural progression , just makes sense
some are into the competitive expression of themselves
others need steps [ prep work to quote T ] I believe in this prep work ,
you need to guide some one safely into a higher pressure environment
or else they get nothing out of it , the just go ape $hit and get hurt

perhaps we can build a bridge between the camps in the same way we build a progression towards more pressure
so we have our basic foundation down , the forms structure and chi sau program is running along smoothly ,
next step getting them to hit and feel and react under more pressure with balanced power and footwork .
so we insert focus mitt work they can go all out [ sort of ] and feel what it’s like to fire at that intensity and as the feeder slips moves , sends hands and legs back in a controlled fashion the person training has to adjust and flow , since it’s really one sided he can just work on his skill .

what are your thoughts

I know of a few wing chun systems that [ feed hands ] we by the senior feeds hand and tells the junior how to respond and later says nothing just puts up hands and lets the person do there thing , this would be a live coaching situation , just insert mitts and turn up the intensity and be creative .

Well thought I would toss it out there

[old_jong]

Mits and pads are great training devices for…Boxing,JKD,Muay Thai and other similar things.

[Vajramusti]

Mitts and pads can have some secondary usage in wc training…if one knows what to do with them.

For training wing chun folks for sporting contests- their value increases.

Context of the wing chun activity involves adjustments.

[Ernie]

Originally posted by old jong
Mits and pads are great training devices for…Boxing,JKD,Muay Thai and other similar things.

so Jong you don’t see a need for them in traditional wing chun
from what i gather could you explain what you see as a negitive
and remember this is not for developing chi sau reflexes but just releaseing and feeling power as you flow with out injuring people

letting go of your power while your being pressured by the coach

all the wing chun hands are in play not jab cross hook

and this is not a replacement of chi sau but another progressive training aid

so fire away big guy

[old_jong]

could you explain what you see as a negitive

It is not (IMO) about seeing these things as “negative” I see these things as useless for developping Wing Chun skill. It is like learning to play the guitar but using a piano to do it!..But,if you have times to spend!..

[captain]

there MUST be someone on here that can vouch for wc being good.someone who has experience enough to boost the low moral.
R