Techs: From structure, to application, to ISOLATED SPARRING

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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I came across an interesting thread & thought I’d share.
In the past I’ve always preached about direct application of any technique we learn in WC.

I’ve always said all the "techniques mean nothing if they aren’t applied. When asked how to apply, I’ve stated EVERYTHING must have an application, and that application MUST be sparred.

Fallen on deaf ears…whatever. But this thread describes exactly what I was talking about. Nice to see some WT people doing exactly what i described as isolated sparring, going live on each “technique”.

After countless, countless times hearing the same **** in relation to WT, thought it might be time for me to post an FAQ.

  1. All Wing Chun sucks!

A: No, it doesn’t. While I agree with you that most, or a lot of WC is McDojo and BS, there are still the few schools who know where its really at. Mine’s one of them.
2. What makes your school different?

A: Realism. You basically take your technique, and test it. For example, last week in class, we were doing a fairly stereotypical WT technique called “Guan Sau Punch” where a punch is thrown at your stomach, and you use your front hand to chop down on it and block it, while simultaneously punching the face with your back hand. After doing it non-contact and with no gear on a few times, sifu broke out the helmets and you either had to block the full power punch to the stomach and then hit back with a full power punch to the head, or attempt to hit the stomach and defend your head. After most people had had a go at this and were getting pretty good, sifu had two of the top students put on the gear, and go totally free - either one of them could throw the technique, and either one had to defend. So in what was almost a totally open atmosphere, with controls, they managed to pull it of and make it look almost exactly the same as the totally closed drilling we had done at the start of the class - and it worked.

This is the part I was referring to. You can read the whole thread here;
http://bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14118

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Pst. Ernie…this is what I meant with my sentence that began with “All techiques”…and ended with…“Application”. This dude gave a perfect example. :slight_smile:

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Dhira,
Down 110 % bro,
First off let me openly thank your for being there when I needed you to train and express idea’s, funny how people use the linage thing to keep all separated in there little bubbles, yet you and I can sit there for hours train and discuss the differences and pro’s cons’ no secrets and not one ounce of political b.s. Come into it. It just goes to show how much can be gained when we leave all the sifu’, master, grand master says crap at the door and just look at wing chun as a whole and train the idea’s with pressure in mind and as you always say application[ and my term that p isses of the word nerds functionalize =) ]. You did a beautiful thing when after I had gone over a ton of my notes and idea’s you simply stepped smiled and said ‘’o.k. That’s great now apply it on me ‘‘ you caught me off guard with some thing I would do to some one it was great =)

Shows you how you need good friends and training partners to keep you honest.

Thanks for being there homie, thanks for the brutal honesty and for being so open
Hope you got some stuff out of it as well peace Ernie

Ps. Big drew wants to get in on it next time =)

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That’s a pretty good thread.

One thing I’m finding is absolutely essential for proper alive training is good protective gear, both for hitter and hittee. A lot of people at our kwoon don’t have decent gloves, for example. I’m still getting over a black eye from sparring without headgear and a cut over the other eye from a head clash from working clinch. Not like I was hurt, or even hit hard, but it looks bad.

The average guy who has a professional job and doesn’t want to go to work looking like an axe murderer, or a girl who doesn’t want people to assume her boyfriend/husband beats her up (unless it’s at training) has to think of these things.

Plus, no one’s tough enough to withstand repeated concussion or brain trauma. A detached retina is no fun either.

But you CAN’T make your training work without working like this.

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nice thread on how to train your WT/WC techniques with aliveness.

Anerlich,

detached retina sounds very scary.Advantages of using head gear is that you wont have visible cuts,no broken nose etc and you can go to work the next day without people giving you funny looks!!!But do you think there are disadvantages to wearing headgear?

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Re: Techs: From structure, to application, to ISOLATED SPARRING

Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
EVERYTHING must have an application, and that application MUST be sparred.
So, no place in your training for any kind of cardio, weight training, yoga, qigong?

Mine’s one of them.
Thats what they all say.

almost a totally open atmosphere, with controls,
Well, its either totally open, or it has controls. It sounds like a fairly contrived scenario to me, almost exactly the same criticism many people seem to have of chi sao.

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Re: Re: Techs: From structure, to application, to ISOLATED SPARRING

Originally posted by crimsonking
Well, its either totally open, or it has controls. It sounds like a fairly contrived scenario to me, almost exactly the same criticism many people seem to have of chi sao.
I don’t know if you have a problem with the ideas or the expression of those ideas.

Chi sao has its place in any school of WC, but its purpose is mainly on developing sensitivity. There may be other attributes you can train for at the same time, but I’ll leave that to others to enlarge upon if they so wish.

So it is again a contrived scenario, but one which is closer to combat than chi sao is. How many times have I heard on this forum that chi sao is not fighting - that is not its purpose?

If we spar with more intent and energy, we and our partners have less time to react, may tense up, may use more strength, may over-commit - all the things that we shouldn’t do. By applying or being subject to additional pressure we may make and correct different mistakes to what we may make in chi sao.

It is just another necessary way to train WC, IMO.

I should qualify my post to say that I don’t train in this way yet, and we don’t do it in the class I attend, but this could be due to the overall level of the class. The other class in the school does have sessions like this, but I’m not sure how frequent it is.

As to the advisability of padding up - isn’t this what boxers do when they train?

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Originally posted by anerlich
The average guy who has a professional job and doesn’t want to go to work looking like an axe murderer, or a girl who doesn’t want people to assume her boyfriend/husband beats her up (unless it’s at training) has to think of these things.

Makes me think of Fight Club.

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detached retina sounds very scary.Advantages of using head gear is that you wont have visible cuts,no broken nose etc and you can go to work the next day without people giving you funny looks!!!But do you think there are disadvantages to wearing headgear?

Oh, sure. lack of visibility is one, though IMO this is less of a problem than many think. Unless you have a REALLY good one, the suckers keep slipping. Too much stuff over your face, you can’t breathe. You can still get KO or concussion. But overall the risks are reduced.

It’s like any other piece of equipment or method of training. It has drawbacks as well as advantages. Training has many aspects and they must be balanced.

In the case of headgear though, IMO the advantages outweigh the drawbacks.

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Thanks for being there homie, thanks for the brutal honesty and for being so open. Hope you got some stuff out of it as well

Hey man, my pleasure always. As you say…family bro…family. You make me better, hopefully I can do the same for you. Family.
I for sure got much out of it. A lot. I need to digest a bit and put it through my “aplication filter”. But yes, you gave me enough to chew on.:wink:

anerlich, I recommend geting headgear with a cage. Unless you’re using boxing gloves…basically, never spar without headgear else it wont be “true”…or on the other extreme, lots of injuries. “In the case of headgear though, IMO the advantages outweigh the drawbacks” Absolutely.

So, no place in your training for any kind of cardio, weight training, yoga, qigong?

I dont get your point. Those things are “CONDITIONING” which should be done outside of class. I’m specifically talking about fighting techniques (in WCK). Chi sao isnt fighting. Its rolling arms in a specific structure with specific techniques. nothing to do with fighting…unless you take those techniques OUT of chi-sao and put them in application, like in the isolated sparring drill mentioned above.

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Chi sao isnt fighting. “Its rolling arms in a specific structure with specific techniques. nothing to do with fighting”…unless you take those techniques OUT of chi-sao and put them in application, like in the isolated sparring drill mentioned above.

To be sure- not a very useful version of chi sao!

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KenWingJitsu (Dhira) wrote:

“I’m specifically talking about fighting techniques (in WCK). Chi sao isnt fighting. Its rolling arms in a specific structure with specific techniques. nothing to do with fighting…unless you take those techniques OUT of chi-sao and put them in application, like in the isolated sparring drill mentioned above.”

I agree with this…although I wouldn’t say “nothing to do with fighting”.

I would say that the moves, strategies, and principles learned in chi sao MUST always be translated into isolated sparring drills..and then actual free-form sparring/fighting.

And the more you do BOTH chi sao and it’s applications in the SAME class…the more wing chun becomes ALIVE.

Good thread, Dhira!

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Joy and Victor are correct.

Dhira, yeah, I’m coming around to the cage too. The open face ones are too, well, open, the plastic visor ones stop the oxygen supply which is a bit tough with the mouthpiece in as well for the breath, plus I’ve seen a number of “unbeakable plastic visors” get smashed in my time.

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Originally posted by KenWingJitsu
Chi sao isnt fighting. Its rolling arms in a specific structure with specific techniques.

I read this as food for thought, and hope you won’t mind a momentary digression. Perhaps we do have different conceptions of what constitutes chi sau.

Save the foundation elements of our Wing Chun practice, I’m not a big advocate of pre-set “you do A and I’ll do B” kinds of drills in or out of chi sau. Aside from limited experimentation or analysis of a specific application or concept, things quickly approach randomness once operating beyond the basic poon sau/luk sau rolling platform.

Energy levels and “assertiveness” during chi sau (cautiously distinguished from the ill-will connotation of “aggressiveness”) vary dramatically based on practitioner experience and capabilities, especially during gor sau variations of the exercise. Accidents sometimes happen, ranging from not-altogether-uncommon split lips and bruises to more rare occurrences like dislocations, broken bones, separated biceps, torn ligaments, etc. Chi sau, as I know it, encompasses a wide range of practice; and while there is always some element of control to it, it is not always or by definition “patty cake.”

I also rarely concern myself with “techniques” during chi sau; I’m far more concerned with concepts and principles of practice, with the aim of allowing my hands to do what they need to do without much interference from me. This seems to work reasonably well in practice, within provisional limitations of course.

Even lat sau/lut sau (separation and loss of sticking) happens during gor sau; while technically the moment and act of separation is not chi sau, it can and does occur during the course and range of chi sau practice.

However, my conception of chi sau still and distinctly does not incorporate fighting. Depending on one’s POV, I reticently concede it may cross the bounds of what some consider forms of sparring. My continued hesitation and ambivalence on that point is mainly due to the “heart” of the chi sau exercise as that of mutual learning and development, rather than for the purpose of besting an “opponent” or attempting to “prove” something to oneself or to others, despite an inherent “testing and verification” element to the practice. There remains a delicate balance of sorts that nags me on this.

Some semblance of control is also maintained in chi sau. And as always, chi sau per se doesn’t intentionally and mutually go to the ground (though sometimes “stuff happens”); regardless of the value of the practice, it would be called something other than chi sau in my vernacular.

I therefore maintain and agree that chi sau is indeed a different thing from a fighting episode and the full range of things that can occur during one. Nonetheless, my conception of chi sau is exceedingly more expansive, varied and rich than “a specific structure with specific techniques.”

It may yet boil down in part to semantic interpretations rather than wholesale disagreement in concept and practice. It’s an interesting consideration all the same. I confess a great difficulty in accepting black and white, on or off, or dogmatic assertions from any corners; there are just too many variations, amplitudes, shades of gray, circumstances, and exceptions to rules for things to be quite so simplistic and one-size-fits all.

Again, pardon my pensive digressions, especially in that such trivia may be of interest primarily to those not actively participating on this thread. Back over to you guys and the topic at hand.

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
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Good post KJ.

There is great diversity on what chi sao is, what it means, what it includes, what its dynamics are and what its purposes are.
On purpose- a common answer that is given is that its for devloping “sensitivity”…sensitivity to what, when and how…
and what do with the information?

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Originally posted by Vajramusti
On purpose- a common answer that is given is that its for devloping “sensitivity”…sensitivity to what, when and how…
and what do with the information?

Yes - my conception of chi sau is hugely about sensitivity or as you describe it, or “listening” skills. Despite the “niceness” of those words, it still isn’t patty-cake.

Regards,

  • kj
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Originally posted by Vajramusti
There is great diversity on what chi sao is, what it means, what it includes, what its dynamics are and what its purposes are.
On purpose- a common answer that is given is that its for devloping “sensitivity”…sensitivity to what, when and how…
and what do with the information?
Isn’t it sensitivity to force and position? As to what to do with the information once received - formulate appropriate responses through lots of ‘repetition’.

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Chi sao is a drill to introduce and develop (to a modest degree) certain aspects of our method. What many people don’t seem to appreciate is that attributes (and sensitivity, timing, even structure are attributes) can be broken down into intensity-independent attributes (like strength, speed, etc.) and intensity-dependent attributes (like timing, sensitivity, mechanics, etc.). In other words, one can have very good sensitivity or timing or structure at low intensity but not at high intensity. But if you have them at high intensity (which comes from working at high intensity), you have them at lower intensity. Chi sao introduces and develops many attribute-dependent attributes to a modest degree; but since the intensity never approaches full-out fighting one will never develop the attributes at that level (which is where we need them). Technique and attributes are not two separate things. The bottom line is that to develop the attributes, and thus our techniques, necessary to perform at high-intensity we need to train/work at high-intensity. Thus, folks that don’t do that sort of training, won’t have the attributes or the technique (can’t fight) regardless of their titles, years in the art, etc. So chi sao is an important drill, but it is only a first step, not the destination.

Regards,

Terence

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About Chi Sau,I prefer to think about “stick and control” instead of sensitivity.It has not that “passive” feel to it.

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Originally posted by old jong
It has not that “passive” feel to it.
Sensitivity does not mean passive. When you sense an opening you attack it.

Bill