Where did the Wing Chun go???
I found this clip on the main Kung Fu forum.
http://users.1st.net/abaddon/kfo/wcvsmantissparring.wmv
It’s listed as Wing Chun versus Mantis sparring… I don’t see any Wing Chun here, nor any Mantis. If this is what people think WC sparring is, then count me out. 
Bill
P.S. I know this is not what Dhira, Ernie and Victor are talking about, but I’d love to hear their comments… if they’re suitable for print. 
Hi Bill!
I will try to be more clear.When you stick,you should be able to control your “opponent” with your “actions” instead of your “reactions”
There is a very dynamic thing in Chi Sau happening.It is not simply touching hands and waiting for an attack or an opening to be sensed.The goal is to be in the present rather than having to react to something already in action.
This is why equalising and neutralising are so much important factors in sticking.
Hi Terence,
I understand your breakdown, and it makes sense.
Originally posted by t_niehoff
Chi sao introduces and develops many attribute-dependent attributes to a modest degree; but since the intensity never approaches full-out fighting one will never develop the attributes at that level (which is where we need them).
However, the ranges of chi sau, as I know it, does at times approach fighting intensity. Close enough for my comfort zone, and sometimes then some.
Regards,
Many will only be reassured if they feel they are acting tough enough and they find approval from others who do the same.
Originally posted by old jong
Hi Bill!
I will try to be more clear.When you stick,you should be able to control your “opponent” with your “actions” instead of your “reactions”
There is a very dynamic thing in Chi Sau happening.It is not simply touching hands and waiting for an attack or an opening to be sensed.The goal is to be in the present rather than having to react to something already in action.
This is why equalising and neutralising are so much important factors in sticking.
Hi OJ,
I can understand where you’re coming from on this. We definitely don¡¦t want to be playing ¡§catch up.¡¨ Still, I am confident this one is indeed more a semantics issue than anything else.
In that light, and just for fun and discourse, here’s a thought: Perhaps we might agree that “to be in the present” would require one to perceive (sense) what the present is. At any infinitely small moment in time, there is a razor fine edge between antipation and commitment vs. being reactive and catching up. You may not wish to refer to the characteristic of perceiving and capitalizing upon each infinitesimally small and fleeting moment of opportunity as sensitivity, but I don’t mind calling it that.
Regards,
Originally posted by old jong
It is not simply touching hands and waiting for an attack or an opening to be sensed.The goal is to be in the present rather than having to react to something already in action.
Bonjour Michel.
I was merely commenting on the use of the term “passive”. Often times we see comments that seem to indicate that chi sao is some type of passive rolling exercise, and of course we know that it is much more than that.
You are right, simply waiting for an opening is not what we’re looking for. We need to create it, and this is done with action.
Bill
Originally posted by old jong
Many will only be reassured if they feel they are acting tough enough and they find approval from others who do the same.
Touche.
P.S. I know this is not what Dhira, Ernie and Victor are talking about, but I’d love to hear their comments… if they’re suitable for print
this was posted before by the wing chun guy ,
touch and go sparring more like a karate match , nothing wrong with some guys having fun
as for the whole sensitivity vs. intensity , t_niehoff hit it on the nose , you might be great at level’s 1-7 but when the volume gets turned to 8,9,10, and above
you will get overwhelmed , things will happen to fast and to hard for lower level training to adjust , body and mind get shell shocked .
but to each there own i’m also not a believer in go hard core all the time something gets lost ,
hard core 10% to get to get the rush
the other 90 brak up into degree’s of difficulty
KJ!..
You’re right,there is some semantic here but there is also some “technical” involved. Being in the present means to be active in sending back the “opponent” energy by equalising and neutralising.This way,speed tricks and other gimmicks have little chance of being effective and the “opponent” needs a very superior timing to catch you.
But I’m sure there are many other ways to explain this concept.
Originally posted by Ernie
touch and go sparring more like a karate match , nothing wrong with some guys having fun
Ernie,
Sure, it’s all in good fun. I just don’t think it should be posted as Wing Chun versus whatever. There’s no WC there at all. Looks more like TKD, although I don’t mean to insult any TKD folks.
you will get overwhelmed , things will happen to fast and to hard for lower level training to adjust , body and mind get shell shocked .
I’m going to step out on a limb and say that it’s mostly in the mind as opposed to the body. The mind will race, possibly panic, and the whole thing comes crashing down. Your body knows what to do, but your mind short-circuits. In the heat of the moment, you don’t know what you know.
Bill
Bill!
Bonjour Michel.
I was merely commenting on the use of the term “passive”. Often times we see comments that seem to indicate that chi sao is some type of passive rolling exercise, and of course we know that it is much more than that.
You are right, simply waiting for an opening is not what we’re looking for. We need to create it, and this is done with action.
I know! You just gave me an opportunity to me more precise.
The bizarre thing is having people who don’t see the natural skill/combat/development relation in Chi Sau. Almost everybody forget all about it when they spar.
Originally posted by old jong
The bizarre thing is having people who don’t see the natural skill/combat/development relation in Chi Sau.
Michel, I think that has to do with the fact that you can’t “see” what is really happening in Chi Sao. You need to feel it, and only those directly involved can do that.
Gotta go. Talk to you later…
Bill
Michel (Old Jong):
You wrote…
“The bizarre thing is having people who don’t see the natural skill/combat/development relation in Chi Sau. Almost everybody forget all about it when they spar.”
Precisely the point I was trying to make in my previous post on this thread…
They are apt to “forget all about it” when they spar if the moves, principles, and strategies learned in chi sao aren’t CONSTANTLY translated into isolated drills and then free sparring.
It’s not so bizarre to understand when it’s acknowledged that MANY wing chun schools will spend hours doing chi sao and “mere minutes” doing the translations.
And by the way…while I agree with kj and others that sensitivity is a very essential “skill” being developed in chi sao - your remark on a previous post…
“About Chi Sau, I prefer to think about “stick and control” instead of sensitivity. It has not that “passive” feel to it…”
IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY!
Stick and control is the “meat and potatoes” of the entire Wing Chun system, IMO.
Chi Sau is not a bag of tricks.It is a developmental approach of fighting skill. You learn to control an opponent so you can punch him at will.This skill should “translate” to sparring or fighting without ant translation needed.
I have my students do many types of sparring drills beside chi sau and the same dynamics apply.The instant there is contact,chi sau skill kicks in,that’s all.
Why so many seems to change art when they spar is a mystery to me.
Stick and control is the “meat and potatoes” of the entire Wing Chun system, IMO.
You can add the sauce also!..
Ernie wrote:
“As for the whole sensitivity vs. intensity , t_niehoff hit it on the nose , you might be great at level’s 1-7 but when the volume gets turned to 8,9,10, and above
you will get overwhelmed , things will happen to fast and to hard for lower level training to adjust , body and mind get shell shocked .
but to each there own i’m also not a believer in go hard core all the time something gets lost ,
hard core 10% to get to get the rush
the other 90 brak up into degree’s of difficulty.”
VERY TRUE !
William Cheung used to tell us that for every one hour of sparring at least 3 hours should be spent “drilling”.
And in fact - I like Ernie’s number 90/10…(although I don’t necessarily see a major difference with GM Cheung’s percentages)…
Because out of that “one hour of free form sparring”…only a small percentage of it should be “all out”, IMO.
It should be a gradual buildup of speed, power, intensity, etc.
So only the last 10-15 minutes should be all out, IMO.
In this manner the practitioner is less apt to “get lost” in the heat of combat and start flailing away…losing his “wing chun” perspective…make stupid mistakes, etc.
RETURN TO CENTER…is a lot more than just bringing a hand back to the centerline when someone has taken you off. It’s a state of mind - perhaps more than anything else. And it is really put to the test in all out sparring…so it’s best to build up to it gradually.
The fog of war
That’s what this is really all about, developing your navigational tools to get some sort of bearing,
Of course we need isolated experiences to break down and train the body and mind by minimizing outside ‘’ noise ‘’
Then we need a nucleus to build from ‘’ chi sau ‘’ then we graduate to perhaps cross arm drills and somewhat freestyles
Finally we have no connection and train how to seek, recognize and control this connection [or if your real good just drop the guy with out any connection]
So now we can take ourselves out into an open environment live energy from a resisting opponent [call it sparring if you will] but your still refining the same thing you did when you were in other stages of training, then when we are ready we get in front of guys not from our school that have there own battle plan and navigational tools well developed and we see if we can still maintain our game plan [fog of war]
Can you adapt, you have learned speed, timing, balance. Power in controlled environments, now learn adaptability in non-controlled, meaning you don’t know what this guy is coming with, it’s a blank slate, you know similar to a street fight were you can’t pick your opponent. You have to adapt and analyze on the fly, get knocked off course and recover your bearings.
If you never leave the safety of the harbor, you will never really know if your ship holds up or will sink, within reason of course there are many more uncontrollable variables in a street fight.
But if your only into preserving the ‘’ art ‘’ portion there is not need to leave the harbor,
Ernie -
while we differ on sparring- agree completely that being able to adapt to quite differing situations is a key to effective wing chun.
Wing chun is not robotics.
Joy
If you never leave the safety of the harbor, you will never really know if your ship holds up or will sink, within reason of course there are many more uncontrollable variables in a street fight.
But if your only into preserving the ‘’ art ‘’ portion there is not need to leave the harbor,
Ernie, I think you generalise too much in that kind of statements.I see you coming over and over with your notion that everybody but you and a few others are on the right path and all others are just swimming on dry land if they do not think exactly like you.The “art” contains a lot more than you seems to believe and it is a lot more than a “portion” IMO.
There always will be somebody better than you or me and there is nothing we can do about that.Unless you train for sport reasons,there is no point in doing this way.
KJ, chi sao never, by its very nature, even approaches fighting intensity – never. If you think it does, try some fighting (where your opponent is trying to take your head off) and see.
Old Jong, there is only one way to learn to become a better swimmer – by getting in the water. In terms of WCK, the environment is fighting (characterized by intensityl resitance, and intent). This is nothing new. If you wanted to become a good chessplayer, you’d study the game (train) which would include learning opening, endgame studies, tactics, playing over the games of masters, etc., then you’d play (fight) lost of games, that is, actually try to use those things you studied in the very activity you are trying to get good at, then you’d think/analyze your success and failures, which would lead to growth. Then the cycle continues – more studying, more playing, more thinking, more growing. Same with any other “competitive” acitivity, physical or mental. In boxing, you become a better boxing by fighting (sparring). It’s an individual’s art, like chess and WCK, but anyone who wants to get better has to do the same things (because that’s ow we as human beings develop). If you don’t believe that to be the case, it is easy enough to disprove – find someone (or do it yourself) that doesn’t fight as part of their development, and see if they can defeat any good fighters. And btw, there is no “art” if it doesn’t work.
Regards,
Terence
Matrix
FWIW,
I edited that clip for Fajing. There was discussion about it on a previous thread. A little background info. Those guys were testing the waters with each other. It was the first time they met. At the end, the mantis guy says he was only working on conditioning. I saw several TWC entry techniques from Sifu Milan and a couple of fung gerks.