OK guys I am going to ask the question that was probably on everyonefs mind during the infamous sparring verses chi sau wars.
Everyone was being as polite as possible and staying away from this question but if no one else will ask it I will!
What lineage are you?
Which do you think is the most beneficial, sparring or chi sau?
So far Ifve noticed the people that were involved in this argument were:
OK Sparring
UltimateWingChunWilliam Cheung TWC
Knifefighter*Ling Ting WT
KenWingJutsu WT
Wcis4meTWC
ErnieWT
Phil Redmond???
OK chi sau
YuenfenAugustine Fong
MeTST
KungFu cowboyAugustine Fong
Sel*********???TST maybe???
KJ********************Ken Chung
TJD***???
Enterthewhip***********???
Crimsomking************???
NTC********************???
VingTsunstudent********???
Alpha Dog**************???
Sorry if some of those details are wrong.
This is a little controversial but it could be very interesting and could explain a few things.
Originally posted by Miles Teg Which do you think is the most beneficial, sparring or chi sau?
Chi sao is more beneficial if your partner is another WC practitioner. If your partner is not WC, you better spar with him because he does not know chi sao.
This debate is not Lineage dependent. It really points out the difference between those that study wing chun vs those that are or have learned wing chun. Some look into the system for answers some look outside the system. This problem is compounded when so many teachers holdback or give out information slowly. Look how long it takes people to get the wooden dummy and weapons in Leung Tings organization.
Miles-
Hunt 1 is correct.
Cant stereotype based on lineages.
My sifu speaks for himself.
I come from a decent wing chun family- but I
represent only myself.
In any lineage you can have uneven understanding
or competence in a given individual.
Chi sao - when done right- is far more appropriate and effective
than sparring (if one means wearing gloves and boxing or kick boxing type of sparring).
You can be effective by the right kind of sparring but IMO its better to do the right kind of chi sao(including very dynamic chi sao-when one is ready)
When done right wing chun skills are meant to be effective against any style not just other wc-ers.
Wing chun is applied physics with heightened perception and reflexive development-it is a style for all seasons. But wing chun was never meant for mass production.
Originally posted by yuanfen Miles-
Hunt 1 is correct.
Cant stereotype based on lineages.
My sifu speaks for himself.
I come from a decent wing chun family- but I
represent only myself.
I must concur with this. Additionally:
There are plenty from my own family-group who are strong advocates of "sparring." It is highly inaccurate to characterize others based on my personal perspectives.
Regardless of the chosen "term" our training definitely gets very intense, extremely "resisting," and highly random. Some people might be shocked at the intensity of engagement by some of my elders and seniors, by whatever name you wish to call it.
Having said that, I [I]personally[/I] (and [I]not[/I] speaking for my "lineage" or anyone else here) believe that there should still and always be some semblance of control, and it is at this juncture that I would draw a line between my perspective and what seems to be promoted by others at times. My opinion is based largely on my personal experience in learning, my analysis of risks and risk management, my overall goals and values, and my sense of ethics.
Even in working with other arts, which is not strictly chi sau, there is room for debate over what is a vigorous and seriously resisting workout vs. uncontrolled sparring or fighting.
The [B]biggest dilemma[/B] in the debate is that [B]there remains no definitive consensus on what is and is not sparring[/B]. Same word tossed around with different meanings even on this message board, underlying ideas flying right past each other in some cases. I have no illusion that we will come to any consensus on it either, but if we did, we'd probably have to re categorize some names on Miles' list.
I am an advocate for balance. My point on the sparring/chi sau debate remains that proportions will appropriately and sometimes necessarily vary for different individuals. It is my view, not a lineage-centric one.
I can debate for sparring almost as easily as against it. However, I believe the sparring advocacy here sufficiently promotes their perspective without my help, and again, I feel that balance is a good thing.
I'm not much a proponent of on-off viewpoints, labelling people, or slicing the world into us-and-them. The best way to label someone is by their name.
A sparring vs. chi sau list is far too simplistic to represent what I think on the matter, and I trust and hope the same is true for others.
If things were so simple as putting together a list, I wouldn’t have so many things to write on and on about.
Again, it’s not EITHER sparring OR chi sao - frequent amounts of both are important.
Why is this such a difficult concept to understand?
Baseball players sometimes take batting practice against machines that only throw fast balls - sometimes they ask batting practice pitchers to throw nothing but curve balls…
But then they get inot a REAL game against pitchers who might throw all kinds of pitches…
Why would they prefer one to the other when both sets of experiences are important to their development as a baseball player?
It’s the same with Wing Chun; and in fact it is the same thing with just about any competitive “athletic” endeavor - drills that are preparatory AND real spontaneous competition.
miles
this is how little i pay attention to lineage i train under gary lam for wing chun , i guess that puts me in the wsl camp . don’t even know what all the abbrivations mean .
we don’t ‘’ spar’’ at his school . it’s all chi sau and disconnected entry’s and drills .
later on gary will have us spar if we chose to . but only if he feels you have sufficient foundation and control.
i have sparred with him on occassion but it last only a few seconds and i end up on my ass or twisted up on the ground while he ask me what part of body i would like to lose:)
i stick and knife spar out side of class weekly i do this to build up my attributes ‘’ speed ,timing , balance, endurance, sensitivity , footwork, and so on.
i used to spar in the ring alot mainly against boxers and muay thai guys . again this was on my own though gary allways encouraged me . i answered many of my own questions during these sessions, fear of getting hit , fear of standing infront of bigger guys , fear of actually hitting some one [ i used to always hold back]
all the sparring i do know is only for developing skill not for going ape s hit on people ,
i don’t see chi sau and sparring as seperate entities they are halves of the same whole . one from in close were hand and body sensitivity are cultivated [chi sau]
the other from a few feet out were eyesensitivity and footwork and timing are cultivated .
later on i will work the ground for a few months just to gain senstivity there .
all part of places and ways humans fight . since we can’t predict a fight or honestly simulate all the elemnts of a fight we can just place our selves in the positions were a fight can occur and add some resitience to become familier and adaptable so we don’t freeze when we end up in a strange place .
I spent a considerable amount of time with Moy Yat (8 years) and an even more considerable amount of time now in TWC with William Cheung (August will be 20 years) - so I will take Miles’ bait and comment about lineage differences concering the ATTITUDE about chi sao and sparring, respectively…as regards the two lineages I have been a part of:
With Moy Yat it was almost exclusively about chi sao and an occasional san sao…but never about geared-up contact sparring with punching and kicking - as in fact Moy Yat was opposed to that - which I sometimes engaged in with John Cheng (Moy 4) privately - an invaluable experience for the both of us. (I mention his name for the benefit of those on this forum from the Moy Yat lineage).
With William Cheung there is a very different mix PERCENTAGE-WISE as regards time spent doing chi sao, cross arm, parallel arm and sparring; in other words, there’s much more contact sparring (including being geared-up) then with Moy Yat.
It think that because chi sao/san sao can get very intense (and with light to moderate contact and even occasional heavier contact) that it becomes an ADDICTIVE drill: very seductive in that it “almost” simulates the kind of sparring I and others have been advocating - but as I have said ad infinitum by now - it doesn’t cover enough bases. I am not singling out Moy Yat’s way of doing things for criticism, by the other- because I know for a fact that MANY wing chun linegaes train basically the same way as he advocated.
To use the baseball analogy again: Chi sao/san sao provides great training against fastballs and curves…but what about the rest of the possible pitches that could be thrown at you?
There is not enough adequate preparation for them IMO, and too many false aguments made against geared-up contact sparring/kicking (ie.- it becomes “kickboxing”)…NOT IF IT’S DONE RIGHT.
I like your lucid and helpful post on the ongoing debate of best WC training. I concur with you that Gary is definitely into skill development first before sparring. In my case I find sparring with gloves is a very good feedback device on what works or not for you in such a controlled environment. You will then do further research to understand the principles, concepts, and the various changing factors associated with the seemingly unworkable skill to make it work for you at a later time. This is the most fun and challenging task both physically and mentally.
But at least I got everyone to agree on something! You can thank me later…just kidding.
I am sorry for grouping people like that. It was just an observation I made that I wanted to take further to see if it was as I suspected. There is a slight pattern and just putting lineage debates aside I thought it might be interesting to explore this correlation (if it did in fact exist).
If we could all be grouped in this way then we would need to conclude that there is soemthing more than our own beliefs and opinions at work here. We would have to assume it came down to the contexts that we have been surrounding ourselves with.
Is it what we have been continually told by sifu and sihings?
Is it our exposure to both training methods and their respective effectiveness or lack of?
Is it our own past/outside experiences (perhaps outside/before our current place of training) that influence our opinions and beliefs in this area? (e.g in my case I didnt have a good time with sparring in my Karate years)
NTC******************** Ho Kam Ming
VingTsunstudent******** WSL
Alpha Dog**************Don Chi Sao
My coming down on the side of chi sao- is not out of ignorance of “sparring”, “reality testing” working with “resisting opponents”
etc. I still think that strereotyping lineages is a problem. Thus if
a wing chun person is going to entera kick boxing contest-
find out the rules, learn them well and train and spar accordingly
so you can win the game.
Sorry!!! I think I made some other mistakes in that silly list as well.
Well I guess I should have said those who think it should be done in class as opposed to those who think it shouldnt and chi sau is a better use of that time that would be used for sparring.
Originally posted by Miles Teg Well I guess I should have said those who think it should be done in class as opposed to those who think it shouldnt and chi sau is a better use of that time that would be used for sparring.
I can definitely agree with this. I firmly believe that precious Wing Chun class time should be spent on Wing Chun, with supplemental activities on one’s own time as well as at one’s own discretion and liability.
I can definitely agree with this. I firmly believe that precious Wing Chun class time should be spent on Wing Chun, with supplemental activities on one’s own time as well as at one’s own discretion and liability.
Regards,
Kathy Jo [/B]
I concur. Chi Sao during class, sparring outside of regular class time, with others that want to play
