back it up, whippy. an assertion by itself means nothing.
Originally posted by rubthebuddha
back it up, whippy. an assertion by itself means nothing.
Only if you see it that way.
CHI SAO IS NOT ENOUGH
The injustice is actually thinking (and relating the thought to one’s students) that one is actually learning a MARTIAL art WITHOUT sparring…there are are SO MANY excellent chi sao “players” on the planet who really couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag that it is truly embarassing and exasperating at times having to explain this “phenomena” about wing chun IN GENERAL to people outside the system who are fight savvy in one way or another.
Boxers, Thai boxers, karate, wrestling, jiu-jitsu - and Joe from down the street who just happens to be a good natural streetfighter. Many of these people have an unfortunate impression about wing chun after seeing some"wing chun chi sao champion" get his butt kicked.
victor
sad but true as i was very amazed to learn from this forum , that there seems to be 2 wing chuns out there .
one just for the sake of preserving the art ‘’ the chi sau masters ‘’
and the other were people use the art to acutally ‘’ dare i be so bold to say it ‘’ fight and train to fight by any and all means
and it would seem the twain shall never meet .
and oddly the first group ‘’ the chi sau masters’’ seem to have all the infinite wisdom of combat , every text book answer all fit into a nice neet little box ‘’ the box of chi sau that is ‘’
yet they are dry land swimmers with the perfect swimming technique yet no idea of what the water is like go figure .
i asked my teacher of thei strange mind set and if sifu’s should have some fight experience and i will pass on his answer ‘’ would you rather learn to shoot from a guy that spends his life practiceing hitting stationary targets or only specific moving targets , or from the man that has been to war and learned to use this skill in the fog of war , which will have a deeper understanding ‘’
it was a bit more fortune cookieish than that but you get the idea.
infact he laughed and sain in the later stages of wing chun your ability to read your oppnents body gets so refined there is no need for contact you just sense the timing and open line and blow him out .
but that requires actual experience out of and away from chi sau , chi sau can become a crutch.
but like all things i guess each must walk there path…
Originally posted by whippinghand1
Only if you see it that way.
let’s see here – an assertion made by someone not shown to be an expert offered with no backup and no explanation. we’re left with just an argument without a premise typed by an unknown person on an internet forum.
the witch trial on “quest for the holy grail” was more convincing. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by rubthebuddha
we’re left with just an argument without a premise typed by an unknown person on an internet forum.
I have not presumed to be anyone else…
never said you did. was merely pointing out that we’re lacking any reason from you to agree.
Originally posted by rubthebuddha
never said you did. was merely pointing out that we’re lacking any reason from you to agree.
Here’s a bit of help… Ask yourself whether you agree with the statement. If the answer is yes then ask yourself why. If the answer is no, then ask yourself “If I were a person that actually believed in this statement, what would the possible reasons be?”
Both Victor and Ernie (mistakenly methinks) seem to assume that they have a corner on experience instead of “swimming on dry land”.
Ther is a lot of talking past each other on what good chi sao entails.
There are different kinds of simulation- sparring, chi sao etc…
but Ernie is correct- one choses their path- why not let ot go at that…rather than repeat the same old same old.
BTW did anyone see the Klitchko- Lewis fight? Self defense?
60 stitches for Klitchko alone. Lewis had a big gash across his nose.
And they did lots of “sparring” beore their fight.
Where is the self defense?
PS. Macho chest thumping- lots of it in these threads.!!!
i’ve posted the reasons why i don’t believe the statement a couple times already, and it was mostly agreement with something other folks, such as victor, merry, etc. already said. same goes for your opinion. however, the jury is still out on this one, so i was hoping you’d add something new to the mix. that’s the purpose of discussion, and i’m hoping you have more to offer than just assertion. having someone else answer your question for you doesn’t do justice to your perspective.
joy: <thump><thump><ow>
I have seen lots of poor psychiatric patients who love to automutilate in my work. Many of them have “Boxer face” as a result of their self-punching or hitting the walls with their faces. Are these guys “tough”?..
It seems that they are after some endorphines discharge that follows pain naturaly.
There must be some relation to the boxers who come to enjoy being hitted.
rub the buddha sez:
joy: <thump><thump><ow>
((The Buddha smiles)))
yuanfen
o.k. no more beating the dead horse [[ or is it horse stance]]
either way i hate both of them:)
how do you know your training works under pressure that is not from a wing chun way of attack[[ cuz that’s all you get in class]]
if you have a better proven method , fill me in , i’ll try anything just to see if there are results .
i could care less about the angle of tan’s and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks ,
all i care about is two dudes square up one walks away the other gets carried out period .
all that other stuff is creme filling , made to fill the void of technitions that don’t test that’s why there are so many un proven perceptions .
no chest thumping , and i don’t promote sparring to the point of stupidity ‘’ alot of people seem to think in extremes like just because you spar you go all out and end up a veg. ]]
so how do you progessivly test your skills and make them adaptable under pressure .
be specific
Originally posted by Ernie
i could care less about the angle of tan’s and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks
So what you’re saying is that, in order to be successful in a “fight” you need muscle power.
whipping boy
So what you’re saying is that, in order to be successful in a “fight” you need muscle power.
maybe you do but i don’t
by the way a ghost shouldn’t speak just keep rattleing your chain
Replies to Ernie in brackets:
yuanfen
o.k. no more beating the dead horse [[ or is it horse stance]]
either way i hate both of them
((Which horse stance… and why do I need to know what you hate?))
how do you know your training works under pressure that is not from a wing chun way of attack[[ cuz that’s all you get in class]]
((You seem to think you know what goes on in class))
if you have a better proven method , fill me in , i’ll try anything just to see if there are results .
((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
i could care less about the angle of tan’s and wieght distribution and how much you bend your knees and who great a form looks ,
((You seem to have a superficial interest in wing chun))
all i care about is two dudes square up one walks away the other gets carried out period .
((Whats involved? Empty hand, weapons… what is the lay of the land-is it dry? raining? Circumstances can vary… reality varies))
all that other stuff is creme filling , made to fill the void of technitions that don’t test that’s why there are so many un proven perceptions .
((What and whose unproven perceptions are you talking about??))
no chest thumping , and i don’t promote sparring to the point of stupidity ‘’ alot of people seem to think in extremes like just because you spar you go all out and end up a veg. ]]
(Sensible point))
so how do you progessivly test your skills and make them adaptable under pressure .
be specific
((be specific… ? try a little civility in your posts first. Makes for a good conversation)))
yuanfen
i am civil to those that are civil to me
((Which horse stance… and why do I need to know what you hate?))
you don’t i was jokeing
((You seem to think you know what goes on in class))
no greater asssumption then you have about others sparring or of what i seem to be thinking ,
i can only go off what i read and from what i read most seem to follow the same old route forms,chi sau,more forms , more chi sau ,more forms more chi sau and so on. and the greatist thing is when i here the ‘’((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
yet no one seems capable to break it down the just give general statements like some magic pill, sorry most wing chun people that i have come across suck , as the seem to stick to there traditional development . but the ones that step out of the safty net and test , those have been really good , thus i base much on this observation, and when i say good i mean very efficient in any arena and very adaptable , there wing chun is more alive and natural not just dead poses or trying to run people down with a blast or a posture . but this is the few hundered i have seen maybe there is another group under a rock some were with the magic pill .
((You seem to have a superficial interest in wing chun))
just the oppisite i don’t get caught up in the superficial aspects of wing chun that beginers dable over . stance structure posstion feel angle and power are all very basic and personal no great mystery , i am only interest in application and adaptabilty in a live enviroment, or training methods that promote and test those skills
so i ask you to break down some of the methods you seem to feel are benificial to advance these skills and how you test them with out a open enviroment against a agressive opponent ,
not being sarcastic really curious ?
we allready now we have different approaches but i’m allways down to learn something new or different . so enlighten me
((Whats involved? Empty hand, weapons… what is the lay of the land-is it dry? raining? Circumstances can vary… reality varies))
exactly my point non of these issues are honestly refined and adressed in traditional chi sau, so how do you test and develop your adaptability ,
i train out side , in the park on the street with and with out weapons , multiple attackers ,sticks knives , rocks , broken bottles ,hell even a garden hose anything we can pick up and flow with , all this i do outside of class just to keep things real and honest , true you can’t chose your street fight but you can become familier to adapting to strange situations
no if there is a nice clean easy way in chi sau to develop these skills by all means please share.
((What and whose unproven perceptions are you talking about??))
everything is unproven until you prove it for yourself until then you living off another persons word
don’t mean to sound so harsh i just don’t buy into any hype things have to be proven and tested not just theoretical or hand me down ‘’ my sifu says crap’’
i don’t doubt that you have sparred a litttle but i’m sure we have different idea’s on what sparring is it is as mutli layered as chi sau , if you are clever and have good people to work off, but your not into it fine how do you suplement it , and how do you know you can adapt to lines of attack that are not in chi sau , or being thrown by another guy that has worked just as hard at his type of fighting not some wing chun guy pretending to be a boxer , kicker and so on .
and if your not sure then fine no one is supposed to have all the answers but you answer in such a difinitive way ‘’((Sticking with good wing chun development is a proven method))
like that’s the end all but yet i don’t hear you explain why it’s so ‘’ perfect ‘’
blanket statements don’t fly ,
it’s real easy to hide behind the skirt of wing chun just recite the sayings and repeat what sifu says , i used to be that way to in the begining it made everything so nice and neat but then i started testing it and was like ‘‘wow’’ that’s a real jab or ‘‘d amn’’ that’s a real thai kick , and then i started to realize thow i knew the motions and the theory and i was able to control and manipulate people in chi sau and everyone wopuld how good i was , well it was different in the real world , but under that pressure i learned and am still learning how to adapt and become natural so i express the wing chun vs. it trapping me by it’s viual imagery.
whats your secret
Replies to Ernie in brackets.
yuanfen
i am civil to those that are civil to me
((Why not be civil from the start?))
yet no one seems capable to break it down the just give general statements like some magic pill, sorry most wing chun people that i have come across suck , as the seem to stick to there traditional development .
((On the contrary- most dont do very “traditional” things—there are chains of people who have been exposed very little to good wing chun and pass on undigested made up things. The popularity of wing chun is a real minus.I agree that most dont do it well))
i am only interest in application and adaptabilty in a live enviroment, or training methods that promote and test those skills
((Deep understanding of principles and application and testing are all important.))
so i ask you to break down some of the methods
(These things are best shown in person ))
everything is unproven until you prove it for yourself until then you living off another persons word
don’t mean to sound so harsh i just don’t buy into any hype things have to be proven and tested not just theoretical or hand me down ‘’ my sifu says crap’’
((I dont hype, I dont sell and I dont hide behind quoting sifu))
i don’t doubt that you have sparred a litttle
( alittle?- now thats patronising))
))but i’m sure we have different idea’s on what sparring is it is as mutli layered as chi sau , if you are clever and have good people to work off, but your not into it fine how do you suplement it ,
((Clever?))
and how do you know you can adapt to lines of attack that are not in chi sau ,
((therein lies the rub… from my perspective, practice and experience- the full chi sao curriculum covers more lines of attack
than other known systems and sparring. If there was one that covers lines better than wing cun- I would be lining up for lessons))
or being thrown by another guy that has worked just as hard at his type of fighting not some wing chun guy pretending to be a boxer , kicker and so on .
((Sure- a combination of exposure to good wing chun and the practitioners own qualities, character and experience and confidence in their art have to be meshed in order to deal with competent people in other styles.))
'blanket statements don’t fly ,
((Net communications do have their limitations.))
it’s real easy to hide behind the skirt of wing chun just recite the sayings and repeat what sifu says ,
((Sorry- I dont do that))
i used to be that way to in the begining it made everything so nice and neat but then i started testing it and was like ‘‘wow’’ that’s a real jab or ‘‘d amn’’ that’s a real thai kick ,
((I am glad that you have evolved.Yes there are folks who have led a sheltered life. But-I do know whata good jab is and whata good kick is- and what lines they are coming in on- because of (there’s the word) the whole variety of chi sao experience))
whats your secret
(( Fairly good Understanding of wing chun principles and dynamics plus practice plus experience. No magic wand))
yuanfen
((therein lies the rub… from my perspective, practice and experience- the full chi sao curriculum covers more lines of attack
now here is a starting point ,
does your chi sau cover high low high ?
were in a person can give pressure on the high line then instantly drop th the low with a single or double leg tackle just blasting through your stance with full athletic blitz ,
or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,
or weapons ?
have to make this short i’m on my way out ,
and if it does then explain and if it doesn’t then why not ?
i do believe wing chun offers the answers but i don’t believe most will ask themselves the hard questions to find those answers ,
these are two off the top of my head
Bracketed replies to Ernie
yuanfen
does your chi sau cover high low high ?
((The chi sau skills do indeed))
were in a person can give pressure on the high line then instantly drop th the low with a single or double leg tackle just blasting through your stance with full athletic blitz ,
((a good chance that the guy will fall down or get hurt. Wing chun is not primarily depenednt on athleticism. Good wing chun should surprise someomne depending primarily on athletic skills))
or 2 guys coming in simaltainiously on different lines ,
((Enough chi sao and you sense the differnces in timing between the two guys…simultaneity is an artificial construct often))
or weapons ?
((Bazooka, a car? Uzi?wing chun helps sharpen your alertness and wits… and if your number is up- you can lose))
have to make this short i’m on my way out ,
and if it does then explain and if it doesn’t then why not ?
i do believe wing chun offers the answers but i don’t believe most will ask themselves the hard questions to find those answers ,
these are two off the top of my head
((Sure- good wing chun folks are not or should not be smug about their wing chun))