What do you get out of sparring

To be honest,
The only thing I can see that you get out of sparring over chi sau is you build up your stamina. Is that what all of these debates are over? I use to spar alot, and that was to train for comp’s. There’s absolutely nothing you can do in any of your clubs that will prepare you for some thought up altercation that you’re waiting to happen.
Anyone who’s been in an actual fight knows that it happens quick and is usually over quick, 30 seconds to a minute. None of these challenges and stand off BS happens

-Beer bottle to the face, followed by (fill in blank)
-Sucker punched, followed by (fill in blank)
-Swarmed by a group
-blah blah blah

Tell me how your sparring is going to help you then more than chi sau?

J

sparring gives you confidence which you will need in streetfight.Its also a good way to see if ur techinques work under pressure and against resistance!!!

ideally you want to be aware and avoid trouble but if you have no choice preempt ur strike but if the person resists or ur opponent has some kind of skill ur sparring experience and stamina will be important.

Those situations are sh*t situations and there is not much u can do against them but only to be aware.But it doesnt mean you shouldnt train(spar) because of these kind of things .Do you think chi sao alone would help you in those situations?also ur opponent will not offer their hands in a poon sao position for u to roll with them!!!

And the sparring should be hard and padded up. Not the point scoring, bouncing up and down sparring you see in some Karate and TKD schools. Expect some pain (:smiley: ) it’s a requried element.

Sparing can be more effective for working of entering skills and distancing.

The extra adrenaline u get when u know theres a good chance of taking a hit is also well worth experiencing.

Hey guys,
I’ve got to say that I get those things from chi sau and other drills (not sparring).

IRONMONK
I don’t need someone’s hands in poon sau to do a technique, chi sau also shows you to hit someone when there hands aren’t there. As for confidence, if I’m having a shouting match with someone and it’s going to lead to a fight, then maybe, but I won’t be having a shouting match and if I ever get into a fight it will be because I’m attacked, and I will do whatever comes natural at the time

BLACK AND BLUE
I like playing rough so as far as pain goes I get it dished out to me (from shins up). :smiley:
BTW, we train with and without pads.

I agree stamina is important, but other than that, what else do you get. Maybe I shouldn’t have just singled out chi sau and sparring vs no sparring.

J

I hope this turns into a good thread. Unfortunatly my day is going to be pretty busy at work but I will check in when I can.

J

Sorry IRONMONK,
I didn’t answer one of your questions.

Do you think chi sao alone would help you in those situations?

Not anymore than sparring would.
:slight_smile:

J

I agree with what iron monk said. In addition, sparring teaches you to deal with contact…When adrenaline rushes and heart rate elvevates, techniques that are not ingrained go out the window. sparring helps you to keep your cool. It also conditions you to deal with the strike itself should you get hit. spin around 30 times, real fast. see how the world is spinning? thats what it feels like when you take a good shot on the jaw. Now, try to strike… awkward, huh? you learn to roll with punches and minimize impact…there are numerous benefits.

what kind of “comps” were you training for? If they were point sparring tournies, then I understand why you feel this way…

I agree with SevenStar, it adds another dynamic.

Chi Sau is a great tool for WC, but it has rules and set circumstances: You start already bridged; opening movements will come from Tan, Bong or Fook; body is, more often than not, kept front and centerline facing.

There are rules in sparring too (it isn’t, of course, a real fight - the aim isn’t to spit in our opponent’s face and, if you take them down, stamp on their nuts or their face) but it offers elements Chi Sau can’t because of Chi Sau’s limitations.

I guess I feel all martial arts, if they are truly going to give you something bordering on preparation for a real encounter, should have forms, bag work, partner drills, sensitivity drills and sparring.

Having all of the above but missing out sparring means you are one part of the puzzle shy. When I was studying WC (now I’m a XingYi nut) we also incorporated aggression training, milling, awareness training (verbal indicators of pending violence etc) and so on and so forth.

It all helps, IMO.

Sparring gives you practise in

  1. Making and breaking contact. Sometimes it’s necessary to break contact if you can’t finish someone immediately with your first wave of attack, and let’s be honest, most people can’t.

  2. Fighting against people who don’t use sticking energy. Rarely do you find someone ‘in the street’ or ‘in the ring’ who will fight with sticking energy. If only one of you is fighting with sticking energy the dynamics are completely different.

  3. Getting hit hard. Regardless of how hard people go in chi sao, I don’t believe most people get hit as hard as in sparring. Why? Even with padding, most people hold back. And also, regardless of wing chun supposedly being concerned with short energy, as we are all in some ways learners (and probably also because most of you… er us :stuck_out_tongue: :D… suck) our short range power is usually sadly lacking, resulting in patty cakes, push-punches and girly shoves or slaps.

  4. Taking different shots. Related to the above, we are too used to taking only wing chun strikes. Wing chun strikes are supposed to be unafffected by body armour as they are penetrative, so if this is true, either we can’t practise ‘real’ wing chun hits, therefore again we are only using weak shots, or there is no point to armour, in which case we are pulling shots… OR we are not ever practising full powe hits on a living moving target. So we need to practise against other kinds of hit. A boxer will floor most people or deliver a different kind of penetrative punch to most wing chunners, as will a thai kicker etc. If we don’t get hit with our own shots, we need to get hit somehow!

  5. Fighting people from different styles. If you don’t think this is important I think you’re kidding yourself. Plus it’s fun!!! :smiley: And other styles don’t do chi sao.

  6. Feints and changes of angle, and engagement distance. Wing chun doesn’t use feints, and a good chunner shouldn’t be chasing hands so shouldn’t fall for feints. But a good feint will mess most of us up unless we practise against them! Some poeple are also very fast at changing angle mid-strike: esp dirty bar fighters, and coming in with a double hit (that old WC staple), and some people can put you out from a longer distance than chi sao will allow you to practise.

Mat , black&blue,sevenstar and ish have made some good points regarding sparring

yes i agree that wing chun should be trained via a COMBINATION OF full contact sparring ,progressive resistance ,drills ,chi sao and forms wall bag training etc

that is what we can do(plus environmental and awareness training) to prepare ourselves for the street.

if i got sucker punched i would rather be a person who has done some full contact sparring then someone without because i might be able to take the punch and continue fighting.

Folks are gonna do what they are gonna do- and people generally repeat their POVs ( including me).
So FWIW, IMO from one wing chun POV.

  1. Folks who talk about the limiations of chi sao- often do not know all the possibilities of chi sao. You can take chi sao to all sorts of levels and develop more and more skills- and yes -against resisting opponents and yes not always being in contact-
    it can be pretty close to serious fighting without serious mayhem on the other side of the law.

Rather not open up inter lineage issue on what chi sao is about.
Lots of misconcemtions on chi sao- even about what sticking is about.

  1. I have done lots of sparring in my time. Good chi sao (not what I mostly see) is much more of a skill builder. And good sustained chi sao also teaches how to remain focussed under fire, remain clear headed, eye control under fire, footwork, yada, yada

Back to the usual mma chit chat programming.

Like JR sez- gotta run!

  1. Chi sao takes you where gloves cannot go.

"Folks who talk about the limitations of chi sao- often do not know all the possibilities of chi sao. "

Read the above sentence carefully. It implies that there are NO LIMITS to what chi sao can teach you - if only you knew all the possibilities inherent in chi sao.

The fact is…no matter how much chi sao you know - and how skilled you are in it - there are definitely limits to what chi sao can teach you about fighting.

It has it’s limits.

“I have done lots of sparring in my time. Good chi sao (not what I mostly see) is much more of a skill builder.”

Chi sao builds certain skills…and sparring builds another set of very important skills. Sometimes those skill sets overlap (ie.- at close standup contact range)…and at other times there is no overlap (ie. - longer range footwork and closing the distance skills…striking and kicking from a longer distance, etc.) Not to mention the big difference in adrenaline rush when the sparring entails full contact strikes, kicks, takedowns, groundfighting, etc.

Again…chi sao - even rough chi sao - definitely has it’s limitations.

Re: What do you get out of sparring

Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
To be honest,
The only thing I can see that you get out of sparring over chi sau is you build up your stamina…Tell me how your sparring is going to help you then more than chi sau?

IMO, sparring doesn’t help you more than chi sau, especially in technical skill building. It helps you in a different way (and more than just stamina development).

For the person who doesn’t get into real fights much, it helps overall skill development a lot.

The main difference between chi sau and sparring is the environment for skill development. In chi sau you are working off of someone who is pretty much doing the same things you are. That is, working WC technique against WC technique. If you are sparring and both trying to employ WC technique, it can be argued that your just doing a more intense version of chi sau. But if you are working other types of fight strategy in, that’s more like real sparring, and it becomes a whole other game. In chi sau you know, by the fact that it’s what YOU’RE doing, what your partner is going to try, in sparring you can’t (or shouldn’t) be as aware of what they might do.

To sum it up, I would say that chi sau helps technical skill development and sparring help fighting ability development. To say that chi sau directly improves fight ability or that sparring directly improves technical skill, would be incorrect IMO.

Jeff,
Think of it this way some people get taught the shell of chi sau , shapes positions , how to roll and hit and block
But never really develop the essence of chi sau there understanding stays on the surface , so beyond the mechanical actions they don’t get much else

And they will never really be able to apply or develop real skill even with many years of chi sau , they just don’t get it

Sparring is the same way you might get in front of people and move around and hit them and get hit with this punch or that kick but that’s all you get out of it

Especially karate types not real skill just car crashing

So if the chi sau guy steps to you and say , yea I did chi sau for a few years and it’s nothing more then trapping hands , no real need for it , you would be like dude hold on there are so many levels , that’s not even skimming the surface

Well it goes both ways if you have never really ‘’ got ‘’ what sparring is about and all the levels

So to ask what is the need for sparring is just like asking what is the need for chi sau

Re: Re: What do you get out of sparring

Originally posted by AmanuJRY
The main difference between chi sau and sparring is the environment for skill development. In chi sau you are working off of someone who is pretty much doing the same things you are. That is, working WC technique against WC technique. If you are sparring and both trying to employ WC technique, it can be argued that your just doing a more intense version of chi sau. But if you are working other types of fight strategy in, that’s more like real sparring, and it becomes a whole other game. In chi sau you know, by the fact that it’s what YOU’RE doing, what your partner is going to try, in sparring you can’t (or shouldn’t) be as aware of what they might do.

Nice delineation.

Regards,

  • kj

Sparring teaches about distance, timing, reading the attack with visual clues as opposed to tactile clues. Distance fighting can involve hit and run tactics, which are not a part of normal chi sau although it can be. If someone is swinging a bat at you or an Escrima stick or trying to cut you with a knife then you develop a certain set of distancing, timing and entry skills and pick up on a lot of clues that are different from Chi sau training.

But Chi sau means different things to different people. For some it is just sensitivity training while for others it is a real fight just as much as some people consider BJJ mat wrestling a real fight. In one lineage I trained at, chi sau was everything including distance. That means we started from chi sau, then started from an inch distance, then 6 inches, then a foot, then three feet. The idea was to not throw away all the skills developed in contact chi sau but to change only what needed changing when dealing with distance. So everything was looked at like a continuous spectrum from distance, to chi sau to ground grappling. It was a continuous thing.

Distance fighting taught one how to make the contact. If you are faced with a Capoeira fighter who spends most of his life upside down, then making contact is not easy. Making contact with a hit and run fighter is also not easy. There are all kinds of funny fighters. Making contact with a football tackle is easy on the other hand, because he does it for you. But another set of problems arises with that. With protection on, you might do a simple leg life and block your training partner’s roundhouse kick and feel fine. But without the protection you might not like the pain and instead develop better timing, better positioning and better footwork skills to avoid that pain. So padded training isn’t always the best but I understand the old argument that Thais and Boxers do it and they are good.

I have seen lots of cases where people go from good Chi sau to being absolutely helpless in the distanced case. It only means they haven’t practiced sparring. For a real fight these people would have to manage to get the guy to play their game. In the stories where chi sau guys have won in real fights, it’s because the opponent started in chi sau range or the chi sau guy just used his wits was careful and found a time to close. In a general ring fight they would lose because closing without getting hit is the big problem.

In Chi sau everyone has a chance including a small lady against a much heavier guy. In all out sparring a small lady doesn’t have much chance against a 250-pound guy and neither do a lot of small guys unless they are incredibly fast. I tried sparring against a SanDa champion who had 10 years of SanDa. But I outweighed him by 30 or 40 pounds and had longer reach and so he couldn’t do much of anything. If he kicked, I just crashed into his kicks with my kicks. His handwork was nothing compared to Wing Chun handwork. He was stiff and tense (relatively speaking) which might be ok if he outweighed me but he didn’t. So it was easy to push him, pull him, jerk him and do all kinds of stuff to him. However when he sparred with an equal size opponent he looked very good, could hit well, could throw, sweep, kick hard and do all the good stuff.

So in a way his training may have been dry land training as well in that he didn’t apply it against the heavyweights. Perhaps it can be made to work but perhaps not.

To me sparring against equal opponents doesn’t do that much. But sparring against a heavyweight relative to your size teaches you something because you can’t afford to take one of their hits. With equal opponents maybe you can go all out 100% whacking the hell out of each other but try that against a guy 40 pounds heavier who is more skillful than you and you will have some major health problems happening. If he fights you at 50% then it’s not the same as fighting a heavier guy at all.

In martial arts you should assume the guy is faster, stronger and heavier than you. If you can hit someone like that then you have a real martial art, you have real skill.

I wonder if boxers and Thai boxers can handle people who outweigh them by more than 40 pounds any better than martial artists can. It seems the whole premise of martial art is that it is possible for a smaller individual to defeat a larger one. If the large one can’t fight or has less skill then of course it’s easy.

In my opinion, chi sau teaches you what to do when contact has been made. Sparring teaches you how to make the contact. Some people have developed training procedures that almost seamlessly go from one environment into the other.

Hey guys

Just finished prepping some blood (HIV) to work with in the lab so I only have a couple of minutes.

BTW, I like all the responses. No one attacked me :stuck_out_tongue:
Yet :eek:

I never said that I’m against sparring. I actually like it. I’m just saying that you can’t say that sparring is the shiznit over anything else.

I guess I thought most of you were saying that if you don’t spar all the time you won’t be able to defend yourself as well as you could, but after reading most of the posts here, I stand corrected.

I’ve really found that you get all the distance, timing, pressure, pain, footwork etc from chi sau along with sensitivity, redirecting, intent, focus, clear mind, relaxation etc, that sparring doesn’t neccessarily give you that much more compared to the time you have to invest into it. It’s most probably true that I never fully explored sparring to the extent that some of you guys have but then again, I’m not finished exploring my chi sau so who knows.

J

Quick questions…

If you are “sparring” in your club, are you actually sparring against someone who knows another martial art and doesn’t use Wing Chun? Or are you just really working on bridging which then becomes the vehicle for what you learn through Chi Sao? I guess a definition of Sparring would help.

In my club our sparring is more of a free flow chi sao rather than the roll and trap and counter the trap, etc.

Sparring is the process of exchanges that take place when you try to close the distance between your partner so that you can neutralize your partner by hitting, kicking, throwing, locking or submission while not getting the same thing done back to you.

Over time the ratio of hits issued with hits landed should increase unless your partner improves at the same rate as you in which case it might remain a constant making you feel that no progress is being made.

We do Wing Chun vs Wing Chun but also anything against Wing Chun. The more things your partner knows, the more anythings he can throw into the mix.

Pretending to be a Taekwondo guy is not the same as fighting a real Taekwondo guy as everyone of course knows. But if you don’t have those kinds of guys around, you just pretend.

Ray