What do you get out of sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Hey guys and gals,

black and blue

Having all of the above but missing out sparring means you are one part of the puzzle shy

I’m trying to figure out which part that is. Maybe I’ll only find out through sparring not sure but I don’t see things like overcoming fears and dealing with adrenaline rushes are part of sparring. There’s always a safety factor involved, if not, then it’s not sparring

Mat

  1. Making and breaking contact. Sometimes it’s necessary to break contact if you can’t finish someone immediately with your first wave of attack, and let’s be honest, most people can’t.

You make and break contact in chi sau which is when your mah san jong (sp?) kicks in
Ya I agree, there’s only one wave of attack and that’s constantly :wink:

IRONMONK

if i got sucker punched i would rather be a person who has done some full contact sparring then someone without because i might be able to take the punch and continue fighting.

Maybe, but boxers and MMA’s get knocked out. If it’s a real sucker punch, not much you can do to prep for that especially if you spar with head gear, mouth piece, chest pads, jock strap, shin guards…
You know what I’m saying.

AmanuJRY

IMO, sparring doesn’t help you more than chi sau, especially in technical skill building. It helps you in a different way

I agree, it’s a different way. I just think chi sau gets kinda short changed you know? When you start wing chun you wanna chi sau so bad cause you see your older brothers doing it and how much fun it looks.
I don’t know, it just seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize how much I don’t know.

:confused: :rolleyes: :slight_smile: :smiley: :cool:

J

22

quote:

if i got sucker punched i would rather be a person who has done some full contact sparring then someone without because i might be able to take the punch and continue fighting.

Really!..Getting hit repeatly on the head,even with a helmet,will not get you tougher. It will just get you dumber and dumber as times goes by.One of my friends job is to make these electro brain tests and some of her regular “custommers” are the Quebec semi-pro and pro boxers. She told me that all of them show some brain damages.Most are just on the limit so they can keep their boxing licence. Everytimes,a guy’s brain is rattled,there is some irreversible damage,even if there is no “official” KO.
BTW,she scans the local MMA guys too and the toll is starting to show it’s face,as better strikers are showing up on the scene,with their smaller gloves.
So,keep on the good training…

BTW,nobody is forced to believe this…It’s your brain after all!..:wink:

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Originally posted by Jeff Bussey
I agree, it’s a different way. I just think chi sau gets kinda short changed you know? When you start wing chun you wanna chi sau so bad cause you see your older brothers doing it and how much fun it looks.
I don’t know, it just seems to me that the more I learn the more I realize how much I don’t know.

Jeff,

IMO, chi sau is quite fun, and from the way some people’s opinion is read/interpeted it can seem like it gets short changed. It is indespensable for developing good WC technical skills, and is a huge aspect of WC training. The problem, or source of most disagreements, comes from whether or not it develops fighting ability.

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I’m just saying that you can’t say that sparring is the shiznit over anything else.

You’re right. But the same could be said for chi sao, forms, bagwork, dummy, everything.

Chi sao (depending on your definition) develops structure, skills and attributes at trapping range. I contend it is close to completely useless for developing skills at entry and defense from outside contact range, or dealing with someone who gets past your “iron bridges” :eek: into a tight clinch.

Some forms of technique isolation (at least while learning) and working against progressive resistance must also be included along with completely random training such as sparring.

Good training is about balance and variety, not trying to make one tool do every job.

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I agree with Hendrik. If one looks at chisau as developing awareness skill tool, then sparring is just another form of awareness training. So why do we keep on talking about this? =)

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Sparring develops grace under pressure, the more pressure you get, the more graceful you become, working all of the right essential components, dealing with concept, principles and energies. Sparring should make you a smarter fighter. It’s for putting all of your theorys that you learned in and about your system too life, too make it real for yourself. With sparring you should be learning something just has a pro boxer does, they spar too keep up with the game, too fix what is weak too their opponent, and too develop concepts too keep up or beat their opponent. Hence becoming a smarter fighter.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

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Originally posted by PaulH
I agree with Hendrik. If one looks at chisau as developing awareness skill tool, then sparring is just another form of awareness training. So why do we keep on talking about this? =)

Because it seems like a lot of people don’t know what it is! :slight_smile:

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simple test:

spar someone of a similar level from another style who does not like to stick, preferably likes a different range to you.

If you have a problem dealing with distance, timing, hard hits etc then you need to address this - maybe sparring or related drills to build these skills.

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“I’m just saying that you can’t say that sparring is the shiznit over anything else.”

I don’t think anyone was saying that. It’s just a part of the puzzle. Not better than Chi Sau, just equally valid and offering different elements and factors.

I currently spar with XingYi training partners and also from someone who studied WSL WCK, and a few people who are very skilled and were once part of the LT WCK system. I don’t jump up and down and bounce around Karate style. I move and start hitting whilst keeping good (I hope) XingYi body positioning.

There is adrenaline and as some of the guys are very useful and outweigh me, fear does kick in when I’m on the receiving end and not doing well. We all get hurt, but not badly so. Bruised, sore, a few whacks to the face that shake you a bit (we’re are all padded up and wear gum shields).

Joy,

I know from you past posts that you feel your Chi Sau offers what sparring offers. I have seen on Augustine Fong’s tapes some kinda light sparring etc and perhaps that’s what you’re talking about. It was nice, and very controlled, but not like full out sparring.

Would it be possible for you to post up some video footage on your website - perhaps of yourself and some senior students working Chi Sau in a way that offers the benefits of Sparring. Will be easier to judge what your saying, as I think you’re implying what you do is different to what most lineages/clubs etc show when doing Chi Sau.

Cheers

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B & B sez- responses in brackets-

Joy,

I know from you past posts that you feel your Chi Sau offers what sparring offers.

((Actually much more. Done lots of both- ergo not speaking abstractly. Having done both- if needed… I havea sense of using wing chun with gloves. If I were starting a boxing club- could teach youngsters some things from wing chun.

I actually a year ago investigated buying a spot to train boxers as well as wing chun folks. Capital and prospective overhead costs were massive and prohibitive. Plus in real boxing development programs there is an eventual dirty and repulsive side of human use of human beings.Politics even in amateur boxing- Olympics selection, coaching and training.

Apart from sparring I have watched lots of first class world class sparring.BTW aweek from tomorrow I have a ticket for the Kostya Tszyu- Sharmba Mitchell fight right here in river city( metro Phoenix).Kostya is training here now. Many boxers are superb human beings- but serious boxing or striking arts reacha point of no return relatively early as far as loss of some brain cells are concerned- as Old Jong pointed out ina different post. In a few years Kostya will be history just as Chavez was before him.Of course some skills remain into later years but the cutting edge against younger top flight people erodes fast— Joe Louis/Marciano, Ali/Holmes. Robinson/Pender.

But chi sao skills can do everything that what is commonly called sparring can and much more. Chi sao teaches so many more lines and angles of attack and combinations and reactions under pressure and use of the other persons pressure.)))

I have seen on Augustine Fong’s tapes some kinda light sparring etc and perhaps that’s what you’re talking about. It was nice, and very controlled, but not like full out sparring.

((Master Fong speaks for himself. We all respect him…but.. His students including me are on their own- no cookie cutter production here partly because of the importance of top flight chi sao development. The good ones develop unique skills via chi sao. None of us verbally put down other wing chun lineages. Most are not on the web.If you saw Danny Chan, Nancy Macdonald, Brian Tufts, Daum, and others in various kinds of testing venues you would know. People do test themselves without jabbering on KFO. Everyone is encouraged to see what other styles have to offer. Brian has done bjj -has a machado belt. Nancy has done major Chinese sword work. Danny is in a class by himself on knowledge, ability and experience.There is no franchise or chain store system. I did not learn from tapes. The tapes give you just some ideas about Master Fong’s approach.

To understanf full scale chi sao-the best way is to come a week long annual seminar in Tucson- towards the end of every April and the beginning of every May. That is the best way to understand what I am saying. Films dont do justice. Wing chun is more tactile, hands on rather than visual.

Chi sao skills can be adapted for many kinds of functions- for some you can try it with gloves. First rate pak sao can improve your spiking in volleyball- Danny’s spiking is something to behold.
Manny is suberb with nunchucks. My nephew went on to become a high school wrestling champion in Oklahoma with his early hand skills devloped from early exposure to wing chun. Held the fastest HS pinning time for a long time.

A student of mine became a combat shooting champion with wing chun structure and positioning, I an NOT into guns btw.They scare me.,because of the culture they breed. Nuff rambling- cheers- Joy PS- You are not doing wing chun- good luck with what you are doing. I am puzzled and amused at some of your criticisms of wing chun- given you dont do wing chun, you had limited exposre to the art and limited survey research. KFO’s chi chat forum is hardly the wing chun world.))))

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Joy said:

(Master Fong speaks for himself. We all respect him…but.. His students including me are on their own- no cookie cutter production here partly because of the importance of top flight chi sao development. The good ones develop unique skills via chi sao.

Master Fong is the best for real. If only you guys realy knew.
oh well, who I’m I too say so? the man can fight for real, I mean can realy throw down.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

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Fong Sigung

He is even too good for me to describe. The thing important is that he got his skill by practicing Wing Chun and thinking Wing Chun.Not by trying to fill his “holes” with “something else” (1). This is the lesson everybody in his lineage learn and will learn again.You find your own Wing Chun by being yourself,not by copying somebody else. A real teacher doesn’t ask his pupils to be carbon copies.He wants you to reach your best level but with your own personality and colors. This is why nobody speaks for Fong and he himself will never try to control anybody else.

(1) Wich doesn’t mean it is wrong to learn other arts for personal reasons. (other than to fill holes! :wink: )

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Old Joung is old school, tell it like it is. My man! Stone Killer Jong
! Ill put may home on Fong’s fighting skills!!! Can’t touch that!

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

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Ha! Ali!
I feel you are thinking a lot like I do. Being “old school” doesn’t mean being blind to other’s talent and to what they can bring to us. A good “Sifu” doesn’t need slaves or devots. He simply teach without holding back anything to all who want to learn sincerely. :wink:

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Why sho ya right! the very short time that I spent with him, blew my mind, and it’s still knocked out the frame.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

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TOO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I WOULD RUN FROM FONG.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

37

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
[B]TOO TELL YOU THE TRUTH, I WOULD RUN FROM FONG.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com [/B]

He is also a very friendly and humble person.His only desire is to share with his students. This is why he doesn’t care for big organisations or business franchises and all the politics that go with these things. He’s just a nice guy who enjoy Wing Chun,a good laugh and people. Here! (Sifu,Sigung…me!) :wink:

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I went too go see him many years ago (Fong), at one of his seminars, as we were working on some drills, and he, or I guess; seen that I was much more advances then others in the crowed, so he took my student and myself, and pull us aside, away from the others. And showed us some stuff that he did not teach to the others who was there. Man that’s was the bomb, and I played chi sao with him a lot, and became his demo partner for the whole seminar. And I wanted to be one of his students real bad. But for some reason I had too go threw his student Ken, in Chicago. Ken said that I would have too changed my religion, to Taoist or something, and I was not ready too do so. I even wrote him a few times,but I could not get threw his people. Than one day my wife called Fong’s home, I don’t know how she got his number, well you know, lady’s and there telephones. She knew that I was hurt, and wanted to try talking to him herself. I didn’t know any thing about what she was up too. My wife ends up talking to his wife for about an hour about that randy Williams stuffs. That’s how I knew she telling truth. Because my wife hates wing chun, and she would never known about that stuff, I
NEVER TOLD HER. Then after my wife said she had to go, from their long conversation, and from what she told me. Fong did not handle all of his business but his students did, but I couldn’t get pass them. Then I knew it was not Fong’s doing. I hate too sound corny, but I almost fell in love with that guy. But I guess, I still have the time too love him as the best of the best. I would love to be one of Fong’s students, I will fight anyone that he put me up against, just too show my loyalty too him, as my sifu. If only I could talk too him. Maybe that would happen one day.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com

39

Originally posted by Ali Hamad Rahim
[B]I went too go see him many years ago (Fong), at one of his seminars, as we were working on some drills, and he, or I guess; seen that I was much more advances then others in the crowed, so he took my student and myself, and pull us aside, away from the others. And showed us some stuff that he did not teach to the others. Man that’s was the bomb, and I played chi sao with him a lot, and became his demo partner for the whole seminar. And I wanted to be one of his students real bad. But for some reason I had too go threw his student Ken, in Chicago. Ken said that I would have too changed my religion, to Taoist or something, and I was not ready too do so. I even wrote him a few times but I could not get threw his people. Than one day my wife called Fong’s home, I don’t know she got the number, well you know, lady’s and there telephones. She knew that I was hurt, and wanted to try too talking to him herself. I didn’t know any thing about what she was up too. My wife ends up talking to his wife for about an hour about that randy Williams stuffs. That’s how I knew she telling truth. Because my wife hates wing chun, and she would never known about that stuff, I
NEVER TOLD HER. Then after my wife said she had to go, from their long conversation and from what she told me. Fong did not handle all of his business but his students did, but I couldn’t get pass them. Then I knew it was not Fong’s doing. I hate too sound corny, but I almost fell in love with that
guy. But I guess, I still have the time too love him as the best of the best. I would love to be one of Fong student’s I will fight anyone that he put me up against, just too show my loyalty him too as my sifu. If only I could talk too him. Maybe that would happen one day.

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com [/B]

Ali!- I don’t get what you mean about this religion thing! I also don’t get what you mean by “going trough” a student in Chicago! There also are no ones taking care of his “business” and no one is blocking no one from being in contact with him! What is that?..What is that thing about Randy William?..Come on!..You want to study from him,you just ask him,nobody else.You don’t have to change religion!..And BTW,Fong never hides anything from anybody who wants to learn,period. There are no secrets,no chosen disciples with secret techniques,no BS.

BTW,he answer all emails himself.Write to him.

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Back in 1988 it was very hard for me to get a hold of him. Then Ken was lying too me all this time. I will call Fong. asap. Thank you so much, Old Jong. :slight_smile:

Ali Hamad Rahim.

detroitwingchun.com