Techs: From structure, to application, to ISOLATED SPARRING

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
41

Ernie -
while we differ on sparring- agree completely that being able to adapt to quite differing situations is a key to effective wing chun.
Wing chun is not robotics.

Joy

we may not differ as much as you think , i don’t believe in touch and go sparring , one thing is if your just playing around with a friend and it’s all fune but if your refineing your entry and adaptive skills against some one who might ring your bell , then it’s a little more serious and timeing taking position and blowing the dude out is important ,

this is not sparring but more of isolating your outside to inseide skills and then adapting if your entry gets countered , being able to maintain your ‘’ center ‘’ mind , balance and calmness under pressure is a skill , i don’t see how this is not a wing chun skill
the tooling and body engine and structure need to be refined under fire like any weapon ,

the intesity of the flame is up to the person and how much there planning on putting in and getting out . people have different needs and goals ,

some like to just feel safe with the gun in the house , others take it out into the range , others shot clay objects , others go hunting
still another level if you plan on going to war .

jong,Ernie, I think you generalise too much in that kind of statements

[[[goes both ways many say they have it all in chi sau or in there lineage or what ever , could be true i don’t know , not there training with them , so i stick to raw human facts , ]]]]

.I see you coming over and over with your notion that everybody but you and a few others are on the right path and all others are just swimming on dry land if they do not think exactly like you.

[[[ not at all i can only do what is right for me , back to the raw human facts , if you want to swim you must get wet , no way around that , if you want to find out what your capable of you must test yourself , people learn by experience and pressure , the level of that pressure will dictate the level of your measurable skill , if i have never move arond with a 250 pound fighter , i wont know if i can adapt to such a person fight or flight might kick in , doesn’t mean it’s impossible every dog has it’s day but i wouldn’t bank on it , if all you ever do is realte to a wing chun energy you will be dialed into that , when a un common and un crispy line cones at you it might cause you to pause , this pause might make a difference in the out come ]]]]

The “art” contains a lot more than you seems to believe and it is a lot more than a “portion” IMO.

[[[ again this is one of those general state ments , i know what you don’t know stuff , meaning less banter . i have been around enough skilled people , probably more then most , to know what wing chun guys can do , and i have been very impressed , but i have noticed those that have and do fight are just better plain and simple . sure some might have a great stance or root or sensitivity or what ever but these are just elements ‘’ the art ‘’
my only concern is in the application and consisitancy of that application in a live enviroment ,
history means nothing to me , being connected to this or that means nothing to me , having to prove this lineage is better then that complete waste of time in my book , how i can improve and how i can help others improve is all that matters , if i find a better way i will toss out everything i know and move on i have no emotional commitment to a training system , it should speak for itself by results , no need to try and defend it ]]]

There always will be somebody better than you or me and there is nothing we can do about that.Unless you train for sport reasons,there is no point in doing this way.

[[[ i live humbled by better fighters every day in and more out of wing chun , the only person i compete with is myself , if you really knew me you would understand that , that’s the same mind set i have in chi sau or in sparring i’m trying to improve myself the person infront of me is just energy no emotional commitment beyond mutual respect ]]

42

Originally posted by t_niehoff
KJ, chi sao never, by its very nature, even approaches fighting intensity – never.

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify, Terence. My use of the term “approach” was in a differential calculus sense, and allowing for varying deltas regarding intensity. It was not intended in any absolute sense, nor to imply that chi sau and fighting are remotely the same thing; hearkening to my earlier writings on this very thread where I vehemently insisted that chi sau is not fighting. So it seems we are once again in violent agreement.

Sadly, I have also seen chi sau evolve rapidly into a real and serious fight. When egos interfere, the leap from one to the other is not always that far. :frowning:

Regards,

  • Kathy Jo
43

NO! NO!

You folks evidently don’t play chess enough! There is a pure, unmatched, and undiluted streak of cruelty found only in this beautiful celebral game. I know my dad and uncle would shut themselves in a room for a whole day and left unspoken to each others for weeks in the aftermath. Like Chi Sau, it can be a “Reach out and crush someone!” as one likes it! But I always come in peace for all my sau! =)

44

being connected to this or that means nothing to me , having to prove this lineage is better then that complete waste of time in my book

It means something to me but not on a political base.I am proud of my lineage but you will not hear me boast about it or worse,talk for my Sifu or Sigung.I am very conscious that there are very skillful Wing Chun people in all lineages.

It was not intended in any absolute sense, nor to imply that chi sau and fighting are remotely the same thing

But it is a very important training method to get to a certain skill level in Wing Chun (If you believe Wing Chun has some value!)…Not talking to you KJ!..:wink: It is central to Wing Chun.There is certainly a good reason for this.

45

To get this thread back online
And since no one ever-said chi sau is not important
Lets see how people would approach an isolated progression

Lets pick a pak sau [something universal]

How would you take it through these stages?

First basic mechanics
Then in chi sau application
Then in a non chi sau application
Then is a live non wing Chun environment
Then take it back to chi sau with newly gained experience.

46

Ernie,

Duncan Leung Sifu said it so well on one of his reply to a question on timing/fighting that I will repost his post in its entirety here as it also touches your question.

"Essentially, proper timing in martial arts (and I believe this would be true of any physical or mental activity) comes from experience. There are two ways in which to acquire the requisite experience. The most obvious, of course, is actually fighting or sparring. With sufficient experience and suffering, one’s timing will improve. Additionally, in Wing Chun, we have drills with a partner designed to speed up the reaction time; these drills are different from drills for improving technique. They involve responding to various types of punches, kicks, openings, and opportunities in different sequences and at gradually increasing velocities. The object is to shorten the reaction period from eye (detecting incoming objects, such as fists and feet) to brain and nervous system to muscles, which are programmed to respond appropriately. Any martial art in any part of the world, any style, would have a timing drill similar to the one I have just described. Because it is so basic and essential, I am sure your instructors would be able to help you with this. "

47

Duncan Leung is only partially correct. Why do boxers spar in the ring and not just do drills? Why do wrestlers grapple on the mat and not just do do drills? Why do BJJers roll and not just do drills? Why go through all that hard work of actually doing the activity in a fighting environment? Because as human beings the only way to truly become skilled at an activity is by doing the activity itself. In WCK we don’t do forms and drills for their own sake, but to develop fighting skill. Drills can help us but they can’t take us the whole way, not even a large portion of the way. If we want to become better fighters, we must fight. That’s an absolute requirement. You won’t get any argument from folks that actually fight about this (they know from experience) – only from folks that don’t fight but think they can if they wanted to (lack of experience)! Well, anyone who claims otherwise can prove it fairly easily just by getting some experience (fight some skilled people). Otherwise, all you’re doing is wu shu – some exercise, some choreography that is removed from fighting.

Regards,

Terence

48

Re: Matrix

Originally posted by Shadowboxer
Those guys were testing the waters with each other. It was the first time they met. At the end, the mantis guy says he was only working on conditioning. I saw several TWC entry techniques from Sifu Milan and a couple of fung gerks.
Shadowboxer,

Thank you for the additional details. Since the clip is advertised as “Wing Chun vs. Northern Mantis sparring”, that’s what I was looking for. If it’s “Two guys testing the waters” then please label it as such. :wink:

Let’s just leave it at that.

Thanks,
Bill

49

deleted…

50

Boxers spar because they take one to give one. They have to learn to get hit and continue with their own combos, not all people can do this.

Only dumb and unskilled boxers take one to give one. Boxing can be every bit as scientific as Wing Chun. In some ways it is a more efficient system than WC. Diss boxing at your peril.

Everyone has to learn to get hit and continue fighting if they expect to be able to operate in a live situation. If they can’t, they better take up yoga or firearms, not that there’s anything wrong with either of those. The fight may start with you getting sucker punched, or jumped from behind, you better be able to respond.

When wrestlers drill they are grappling on the mat??? Same with BJJ.

And your point is … ? There’s a big difference between drilling takedowns, pins, or submission holds, and trying to apply them on a fully resisting opponent. Any BJJer who does only drills and never rolls will get DESTROYED by a peer who trains alive for the same length of time.

51

While it presumptuous to second guess Duncan Leung, I think when he said “there are two ways”, that he advocates doing both, not making a choice between the two.

52

Boxers spar because they take one to give one.

Ho hum, no they dont.
They might expect to take the odd hit in a fight but so does anyone who’s been in one or trained in a manner adequately simulating one. It’s only form masters, chi-sao specialists and drill-junkies who think they’re never going to cop one.

53

Even internet tough guys get hit.

54

Originally posted by sihing
Boxers spar because they take one to give one. They have to learn to get hit and continue with their own combos, not all people can do this.
James,
A real boxer will not “take one to give one”. They will make you miss with their footwork, bob and weave and slip punches. Probe with jabs and wait for their time to strike. Yes, some guys will just go toe-to-toe and slug it out, but not most.

When wrestlers drill they are grappling on the mat??? Same with BJJ.
Just the equivalent to boxers wearing gloves and head-gear to spar.

Lots of people fight with no training and are still sh!tty fighters.
Lots of people train and are still sh!tty fighters. :rolleyes:

Bill

55

Lookit this thread…IT’S ALIVE!!!

And the more you do BOTH chi sao and it’s applications in the SAME class…the more wing chun becomes ALIVE.

Victor, that is my whole point on chi-sao. Notice I said “unless the applications are taken out and trained alive. We basically agree. My point is…only chi-sao has nothing to do with fighting if it is 'only chi-sao”. If you take the techniques and put it in a “fighting context”, (like the Isolated sparring example), THEN it now has something to do with fighting.

Before this becomes a ‘chi-sao’ thread, let me just say that just chi-sao will make you good at one thing…chi sao. Period. no matter how its sugar-coated, no matter how many ways it’s defined. Not even when it is “aggresive chi sao”. Aggressive chi sao makes you good at…aggresive chi sao lol. To use the techniques or principles chi-sao was designed for, you MUST put them in a fighting context, and TRAIN them in a fighting context. The sifu in the example I quoted does this, and like Victor said, it was trained in the same class…this way students get to learn the chi-sao, leand the application of it, and then apply the move under real pressure…even if its only in isolation…it’s still alive.

Ernie’s last post summed it up. : Lets pick a pak sau [something universal]

How would you take it through these stages?

First basic mechanics
Then in chi sau application
Then in a non chi sau application
Then is a live non wing Chun environment
Then take it back to chi sau with newly gained experience.

My answer would be

First basic mechanics SHow the form of the pak. elbow posititon, hip position and show the proper direction of the pak…(forward, not sideways). Show the power generation and practice it a few times without resistance…i.e. “dead”, but this is for building proper technique.

Then in chi sau application : In most schools from poon-sao, this is done as an inside pak. So Have one person be the “paker” (lol) and the other the just rolls hands. The paker, once he feels his bong being rolled into ton uses that as the “cue” to pak and then punch. Repeat for reps or minute rounds tightening up mechanics.

Then in a non chi sau application : This is where I hope I dont lose anyone. This is where application comes in. To apply it for real, you are now taking it out of the “chi-sao environment”. have sone person be the puncher the other the punchee. Start form no contact, but from a distance. The instigator reaches & grabs the back of the neck (necktie & tries to pull him in -(snapdown). The ‘paker’ reacts by stepping fwd with the pull & trying to punch on the inside of the grabbing arm (ex. Say Attacker grabs defenders head with his left arm, defender punches with his right hand on the inside of A’s left elbow as the pull begins). IF A’s elbow is down and tight, the punch will be ‘jammed’ before it reaches his face (if it isn’t the punch lands - which is better) this is where the pak comes in. Defender inside paks the forearm to clear the “barrier” creating a path for the punch to smash the attackers face. There’s your application.

Then is a live non wing Chun environment DO rounds of it live, and unexpected, i.e. attacker doesn’t let the other know which hand you’ll grab with or when he’ll grab. He makes it “live” and really tried to pull the guy in to headbutt or punch. Next, switch roles, then next, both people try to grab (clinch-headbutt or punch) AND defend with the pak. This is isolated sparring.

Then take it back to chi sau with newly gained experience. Next time you do chi-sao (doesn’t have to be the same class since you’ve already begun with chi-sao), you’ll KNOW the application of the inside pak from the poon-sao roll, so it’s not just an inside pak from chi-sao, but now you envision every time you roll in chi-sao that you are in fact defending a barrier such as a neck tie that pulls you in for a headbutt or clinch or for a punch. You’ll “see” the application every time you chi-sao, and this will give your chi-sao a different feeling and a different meaning as far as that technique goes.

Do the same for ALL techniques/drills/postures in chi-sao and you’re set to apply it for real.

56

Matrix (Bill);

I agree with Shadowboxer’s assessment of the clip…more like two guys just messing around than an example of two guys “showing” their respective arts.

When I first saw this clip (some time ago)…I didn’t see hardly any mantis, or wing chun… and some poorly-attempted TWC entry techniques.

57

Dhira wrote:

"Victor, that is my whole point on chi-sao. Notice I said “unless the applications are taken out and trained alive. We basically agree. My point is…only chi-sao has nothing to do with fighting if it is 'only chi-sao”. If you take the techniques and put it in a “fighting context”, (like the Isolated sparring example), THEN it now has something to do with fighting…

"Let me just say that just chi-sao will make you good at one thing…chi sao. Period. no matter how its sugar-coated, no matter how many ways it’s defined. Not even when it is “aggresive chi sao”. Aggressive chi sao makes you good at…aggresive chi sao lol…

To use the techniques or principles chi-sao was designed for, you MUST put them in a fighting context, and TRAIN them in a fighting context. The sifu in the example I quoted does this, and like Victor said, it was trained in the same class…this way students get to learn the chi-sao, leand the application of it, and then apply the move under real pressure…even if its only in isolation…it’s still alive."

Dhira…I couldn’t have said it better!

And now let me add one to Ernie’s request for a pak sao in a “non chi sao application”…

Someone steps forward towards you with his left foot and a straight left stiff lead (punch) at your face. (You’re in a completely neutral stance with your hands down…he tried to sucker punch you).

You step up (somewhat) and to the outside of his left leg with your right leg..while using a diagonally upward right hand pak sao on his punching arm (about half-way between his elbow and his wrist)…and the pak is actually guiding his punching arm toward and over your left shoulder…

while simultaneously punching his body (ie.- floating ribs) with your left fist.

58

“take one to give one”

Ali took some to give some, perfect example was with Foreman. Obviously they do not employ this strategy all the time, but they do learn how to take a shot to setup one of their own combinations. Even Vitor Belfort on one of his boxing tapes relates this, “sometimes you have to take one to set-up the proper position to give one”, so is he a “dumb and unskilled” boxer? If evasion works then of course they would rather use that method.

Quote: Anerlich
“Everyone has to learn to get hit and continue fighting if they expect to be able to operate in a live situation. If they can’t, they better take up yoga or firearms”

Problem is some people cannot take any shots, because of their individual attributes, most likely small and frailness. If a person that is small framed and 150lbs, were to take one shot from a 250lb opponent it may kill them, so then what are people of this stature to do? Should they not even attempt to learn any method of self-defence? OR Should they learn something that allows them to anticipate the opponent’s movement earlier, eliminates some of their opponent’s options, and gives them tools to take out their attackers quickly with non telegraphic movements while at the same time putting them in superior positions in relation to their opponent?

Matrix:
¨Lots of people train and are still sh!tty fighters. ¨
How did I know this come back was coming, lol. Compared to who Matrix? Did they improve at all? That is the point right. If they improved their fighting ability then the training worked, they are better than they were before, maybe more training is required. I can’t see someone training at a half decent intensity level and not improving at all. I’ve training kids with ADD and after a year of training they improved in all areas of physical attributes, and I can guarantee their fighting skills improved too.

Sihing

59

If a person that is small framed and 150lbs, were to take one shot from a 250lb opponent it may kill them, so then what are people of this stature to do? Should they not even attempt to learn any method of self-defence?

If I was going to die the first time I got hit, I’d wear a motorcycle helmet and body armour and carry an Uzi 9mm at all times. TWC would be way too risky.

You can push that example further. Would you recommend TWC to a haemophiliac, or a person with brittle bones, like Samuel L Jackson’s character in “Unbreakable”? I hope not!

OR Should they learn something that allows them to anticipate the opponent’s movement earlier, eliminates some of their opponent’s options, and gives them tools to take out their attackers quickly with non telegraphic movements while at the same time putting them in superior positions in relation to their opponent?

So you’re advocating Brazilian jiu jitsu! Or boxing, for that matter.

but they do learn how to take a shot to setup one of their own combinations

An old KF saying has it that: “a good boxer is stung frequently and hurt occasionally.” Some may be more macho about it than others, but if you train an MA for real, or have to defend yourself, you WILL get hit and you WILL have to learn to deal with it and keep fighting to prevail. Unless you die on the first shot, of course :rolleyes:

And I’d put my money on Vitor or George to demolish any KF guy who didn’t train alive very early in the first round.

60

Quote: Anerlich
“And I’d put my money on Vitor or George to demolish any KF guy who didn’t train alive very early in the first round.”

How did I know that you would compare Vitor and George to any KF guy…are these guys professional, yup. Most KF guys are not, besides anerlich, do you know every KF guy in the world? Let me say it this way, if one had the similar natural physical attributes similar to Vitor and George, and was willing to put in the same training time and intensity into TWC that these two gentlemen put into their respective arts, and with proper instruction from a instructor I know, I would put my money on the TWC guy, in a streetfight. Like I have said earlier, just because one learns TWC does not mean they are the deadliest streetfighter alive , but they will make it hard for most to take them down. Vitor and George are exceptional atheletes with unusual detemination and physical attributes, and they like to fight. Me personally, I don’t like to fight and I do not consider myself a natural fighter, but I am atheletic and have good TWC skill, plus some heart to boot, so this would make it harder for anyone to just blaze through me if the situation called for a streetfight to happen.

Quote: Anerlich
“So you’re advocating Brazilian jiu jitsu! Or boxing, for that matter”

Nope, rolling around a bar floor with glass everywhere and buddies looking on would not be recommended…Boxing maybe, requires too much speed, TWC would be the recommendation anerlich..oh yeah this is a WC forum, funny you didn’t recommend TWC…

Quote: Anerlich
“If I was going to die the first time I got hit, I’d wear a motorcycle helmet and body armour and carry an Uzi 9mm at all times. TWC would be way too risky.”

Anerlich, ever heard of SENIOR CITIZENS, DISABALDED PEOPLE, SMALL PEOPLE IN GENERAL, you think any of these people can take a shot? And what do you recommend, a gun, that makes allot of sense. More guns, exactly what we need. Maybe you do not have a strong faith in TWC effectiveness for smaller folk, not all agree with you…oh by the way what would you recommend for a person with Samuel L Jackson’s character’s aliment?? A haemophiliac yes I would recommend TWC, the faster the fight is over the lesser chance of not getting bruised or cut…

Sihing