Captain-
I have been vouching for quite some time- and some others too.
Morale? varies extensively depending on who you talk to..
mine is high!!
Originally posted by CFT
[B]My impression from the posts already made in this thread is that both Ray and Terrence agree on actually using WCK to fight, as opposed to doing forms ad nauseum; the major contention is the time frame. By “fight”, I am “redefining” this to mean someone outside of your own school.
Terrence is advocating for pretty much from “day one”, and Ray advocates the “traditional” approach of a foundation in the forms, drills, and possibly sparring before going out to “challenge” practitioners of other arts.
Correct me if my impressions are wrong. [/B]
That’s correct. I agree with Terrences stuff but not in his time frame because it produces crap.
Ray
Originally posted by Vajramusti
[B]FWIW-In knife fighting discussions for instance - how many Gurkhas with real experience come on board to chit chat. In reality discussions how many real “OZ” survivors come on board to participate in these keyboard discussions.
Upping the level of analysis rather than chest beating and noise is what constructive forums can do. [/B]
Very good post Joy. I was going to ask you how do the Gurkhas train? They are world famous for their knife fighting skills as everyone should know.
Ray
A good WC punch/strike has 4 qualities in general:
- Power
- Stability
- Precision/Timing
- Speed
The precision and timing depends heavily on feeling, a certain maturity of how a good punch should be done, and lot of experience. In this context, the mitt and focus pads as a modern way to cultivate this attribute fit in nicely with the WC training. I’ve been taking notes on Ernie’s training with his trainees. So far, they all improve remarkably on how they deliver their attacks with respect to the 4 points above.
I’m used to train with mitts/gloves years ago also, but it’s nothing as sophisticated like the way Ernie did it. The only drawback I see is this method depends heavily on an experienced coach who can coach you.
“It is not (IMO) about seeing these things (focus mitt and pad/bag work) as ‘negative’. I see these things as useless for developing Wing Chun skill.”
(Old Jong)
How could these things be useless?
Wing chun punching, palm strikes, kicks, etc. don’t need to be sharpened to a high intensity of power, speed, and precision?
Or are you going to say that Wooden Dummy training does that? If so…the Wooden dummy doesn’t move and react the way a live training partner/feeder would move and react.
And doing these things against a live “opponent” (the feeder)…who sticks and moves…feeds an arm/takes it away…throws high, low, high…in and out…side to side - does the same with kicks or knee strikes…
these things wouldn’t help a wing chun fighter?
But somehow they help a Muay-Thai fighter? Or a kickboxer? Does this make any sense?
Where is Wing Chun from? Some other planet?
Originally posted by old jong
It is not (IMO) about seeing these things as “negative” I see these things as useless for developping Wing Chun skill. It is like learning to play the guitar but using a piano to do it!..But,if you have times to spend!..
Here is the complete post. It is my own opinion and I understand your’s must be different.
:eek:
If you don’t hit pads, and don’t spar and hit each other, and don’t fight and hit people for real… what the heck are you guys hitting… other than air.
Yes!..And we beat the **** out of that air!..
So, in short, you and Joy kick airse!
:rolleyes:
Until it becomes a lot of hot air?
Just blowing smoke, are you?!
Ok fellows slow down before this turns into the usual if you don’t spar you suck and if you spar you not doing wing chun thing that seems to be all we do these days =(
Jong
From your experience how would being able to add more contact and pressure to the wing Chun hand flows be negative [ again keeping in mind this is only a supplement to chi sau training ]
- how would tracking the body as it slips moves kicks and tries to rush and tackle as well as clinch , while your training to flow adapt and hit with good solid power yet be adaptable enough to change and interrupt as the feeder changes lines off attack and weapons .
- the idea here being quick termination and feeling on a physical and emotional level how to release balanced power , seeing a person change in a non wing chun body style feed , sight recognition , lines of attack that are not wing chun style so you can learn to adapt to things other then wing chun attacks
- learning to focus on the man instead of the style by being in an environment that the feeder has free reign to fire or controlled counter with anything
- or you can just use it to further cultivate the explosiveness and routing under pressure of your own power of the wing chun hands
what drills or training would you use to supplement the skill development that this higher pressure and target adaptability would develop .
so were not talking about sparring , just drilling with impact
Hey, don’t make fun of them! :mad:
These guys have wicked forms and mad-crazy Chi Sau skills.
I never hope for anyone to be mugged… but with these guys, I pray it never happens.
“You wanna take my wallet, eh? Yeah, just try and take it whilst avoiding my arms as I go through the SNT set!!!”
Not to worry, Ernie. Just having some fun at (Old Jong) Michel’s expense! He can take it.
Seriously though…this is a good thread; and as I see it, rhetoric aside - your points about supplementing wing chun drilling with pads/mitt/bag work with a live feeder is a good one.
And the more detail you give about the nature and the benefits of the drills - the more it should be becoming obvious that this is a good idea. Good for a wing chun fighter’s skill and attribute development. Along with the usual stuff (ie. - the importance of hard sparring/fighting).
In fact - this quote from not long ago on this thread is very telling, imo; wherein Ray (YongChun) responds back to CFT…
Originally posted by CFT
"My impression from the posts already made in this thread is that both Ray and Terrence agree on actually using WCK to fight, as opposed to doing forms ad nauseum; the major contention is the time frame. By ‘fight’, I am ‘redefining’ this to mean someone outside of your own school.
Terrence is advocating for pretty much from ‘day one’, and Ray advocates the ‘traditional’ approach of a foundation in the forms, drills, and possibly sparring before going out to ‘challenge’ practitioners of other arts.
Correct me if my impressions are wrong."
“That’s correct. I agree with Terrences stuff but not in his time frame because it produces crap.”
Ray
…
So Ray seems to be saying that hard sparring/fighting is a good idea if one really wants to be able to fight with wing chun - but not from day one (as Terence advocates).
I agree with Ray on this - and you said earlier on the thread (if I remember correctly) that you agree also.
Don’t know if Ray really means that - but he said it.
In any event - getting past the rhetoric - the answer really seems to be ALL OF THE ABOVE.
After a reasonable (but not too lengthy) amount of time - as a Wing Chun practitioner - and the basics have been covered…SLT, drills, and a fair amount of chi sao has been learned…and the basics of wing chun theory, footwork, punching, kicking, etc. are being done…
it should become time to start working at a higher gear - against a resisting opponent…step-by-step… up the ladder of spontaneous light sparring - adding more and more moves as time goes on - and into hard sparring…bag/mitt/pad work, etc.
What is not too lengthy? Each will have a time frame of their own, that they think is best. For me - a new student should at the very least be doing some light sparring drills (starting with isolation drills) within 8-10 months - and spontaneous contact sparring with protective equipment within 1.5 years.
But that doesn’t mean that the chi sao, drills, forms, etc. end.
On the contrary - they never end. One must keep returning to these things to sharpen what you know and to discover/learn new things that come from the wing chun system that you didn’t cover yet.
But I’m preaching to the choir - I know that you know.
Ernie.
I sometimes use pads for checking my students progress in punching. They all progress naturaly and at their own paces with Wing Chun methods.I don’t feel the need to add JKD or Muay Thai methods. You feel free to do whatever you want.
B&B
:rolleyes:
OJ
:o… good luck with your classes. You teach WCK as self defense? LOL
B and B sez:
I never hope for anyone to be mugged… but with these guys, I pray it never happens.
“You wanna take my wallet, eh? Yeah, just try and take it whilst avoiding my arms as I go through the SNT set!!!”
Not to worry- I will distract them by telling them that I have a black and blue brother who makes a mean hungarian ghoulash.
I hope that you can take over from there.
Originally posted by old jong
[B]Ernie.
I sometimes use pads for checking my students progress in punching. They all progress naturaly and at their own paces with Wing Chun methods.I don’t feel the need to add JKD or Muay Thai methods. You feel free to do whatever you want.
B&B
:rolleyes: [/B]
Jong ,
why do things have to have labels ?
if a pak sau is practiced one a focus mitt then it is no longer a wing chun pak sau but a jkd pak sau
if your training bridging and closing with impact and you use a mitt for proctection and the ability to do it over and over at power with out injury to the hitter or feeder
then this is jkd ?
then by that logic wing chun needs some jkd
labels are silly they seperate us and prevent us from growing
a pak is a pak , as long as your cultivating the body engine and relaxed power release
the tool you hit should not matter
i don’t follow your logic , and i’m not trying to argue or be disrespectful
instead trying to erase some of the [jump to conclusion knee jerk reactions ] that seem to dominate these days
LOL, Joy
If you’d ever tasted my cooking you’d realize just how deadly it is! 
I am printing out your last post to show my girlfriend - the poor woman has been subject to more than one attempt on my part to cook “Hungarian style”.
Now… back to slagging off Old Jong… Jong, you are sissy!
And of course, Ernie is correct. Use tools to test. Whatever you do - test what you do. What the heck do you guys do in training (other than punch air and tell each other crazy-fox Yip Man stories)?
:rolleyes:
Big Daddy V 
have not heard from you in a while hope all is well
got some stuff I want to send you , I have not for got just have some things I need to clean up -------
---- as for the mitts I know it takes a certain amount of skill and endurance to feed the mitts the right way and draw out the skill from the person
not everybody can do this
I’m still working on it , but here is another plus it makes me so much better and more sensitive , I have to be just ahead of the person yet still give him enough substance to feel his shot yet still have the next feed ready
this is hard enough in a boxing format
but add in wing Chun split timing and to handed system things get real scary
but you will see how in the beginning people stumble and over commit when they suddenly have to hit hard for real on a target that moves gives different lines
they would have these same problems in the street [ or sparring ] if you want to go that route
in chi sau we become accustom to body postures and lines of attack
but when things get disconnected and the waters get rough things change
this is the prime way to find your chi sau skill in dirty water yet not kill anyone
again it is hard on the coach and if you don’t get the mitt up then you eat a shot , but it’s worth it for me to eat a few shots if my guys get good . plus this aint ballet getting hit is part of the game ,
Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
[B]
So Ray seems to be saying that hard sparring/fighting is a good idea if one really wants to be able to fight with wing chun - but not from day one (as Terence advocates).
I agree with Ray on this - and you said earlier on the thread (if I remember correctly) that you agree also.
Don’t know if Ray really means that - but he said it.. [/B]
Yes that’s what I mean. Following Terrences model, I doubt if any kind of Eastern Martial arts would have developed. Tai Chi, Hung style, Preying Mantis, aikido, … all those things take time for the body to absorb. Once absorbed then you can go to the next stage of fighting. If not absorbed all practitioners will turn into standard kickboxers. Some are happy with that and that’s fine. I have seen so many people who fight too early and it takes forever to get the stiff, tense approach out. Also they are always easy to beat too.
Ray