Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. 
There are a lot of things you can practice in Wing Chun that donāt involve Chi Sao. These are the things that a lot of people neglect because it isnāt as exciting. Footwork including taking different angles and 180 degree turns (Mobility is extremely important), shifting drills going through pak sao, tan sao, bong sao, etc, punching and kicking power using heavy bags and wallbags, stepping and punching. And during all this, always be aware of your centerline and make sure you face the opponentās centerline. For my drills, I use a broomstick to represent my opponentās centerline and I always face it. Sensitivity training from Chi Sao is of course necessary to really understand trapping and simultaneous attack and defense. But perfecting your punches, kicks, and footwork is an art all unto itself. Remember that the goal of Wing Chun is NOT to trap. The goal is to attack the opponentās centerline. Trapping helps you do that by making sure you can get the shot in. But there are times when you can just go right in and you donāt even need to trap.
Why do you ask?
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
Short answer- noāyou are likely to end up with something other than wing chun. Depends on whether you want to learn wing chun. There are other non wing chun styles and methods.
Later, there are many ways to do footwork with chi sao and moving. You should search for a decent teacher.
Buddy Wu may still be teaching near Cleveland.
joy chaudhuri
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
Iād say you could learn to use wing chun without the chi saoābut this is assuming of course that youāre doing everything else in the wing chun curriculum like the partner drills, sparring, and the like; and if youāre going to do that you might as well do the chi sao. To bottom line is that you need to work with PEOPLE to really excel in wing chun. To be honest the same is true of any style, but wing chun moreso because our style focuses on a range of fighting that requires high levels touch sensitivity to gain proficiency.
chi-sao is a toolā¦we exchange energy to develop elbow alignment,strike reactions, reacting to openings ā¦ not all about feeling things, feeling things is a by-product of the drills, NOT THE REASON YOU DO IT ALONEā¦when you meet energy with your own , all kinds of things happenā¦stances wobble, arms, hands, wrists, thinking ā¦ all go into action 
VT is isolating mistakes in chi-sao to refine your techniques of striking with a structured body alignment, balanced like a boxer..moving and striking without thinking so much at high speedā¦
you can get someone to punch your centerline close enough so their arm is still extending at your centerā¦then try to use you elbow to move to the line to stop the punch from making energy on youā¦it may touch slightly as it is deflectedā¦okā¦this is jum sao. then keeping your elbow fixed/frozenā¦make a punch forwardsā¦dont try to stop them with your hands or move your fingers from pointing at their chinā¦
if your afraid to hurt them use a horizontal palmā¦makes jum elbow as it strikes
use pectoral / lats contractions , not hand/wrist actions
Then get them to do the same punch but use the tan to make a strike as the elbow moves away from your line, the easiest wy to make a beginner do this is to make a vertical palm hit for tan..vertical palm makes tan elbow as it strikes
doing 2 handed drills allows you to work the partners arms in the opposite format..ie tan v jum in rotating cyclesā¦
better than nothingā¦
play around usin g the outside and inside of each striking cycling arm to deflect strikes as you strike at the same time..dont move off the line striking..have your friend throw lots of feints to see if your looking to contact the arm first or as a by product of the strikes alignkment..tan use the outside of the striking arm..jum the insideā¦
nothing stopping you just hitā¦move sideways like a crab to frollow them stay outsdie tir centerlines dont face yours to theirs ā¦attack one 1/2 of your friend. ie one arm ,ā¦which half is sometimes left to them for you to decide
IMO if you donāt have chi sao, forms or points, dummy training and the weapons, you donāt have Wing Chun.
Lots of people have learned to fight well enough without chi sao, but IMO they are then not practising Wing Chun.
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
I assume you are asking because you want to try and train without exposure to someone who can do ChiSao?
The answer is yes and no.
Yes, you can train some WCK elements both with and without a partner..if you know what they are..
No, it will never impart the same benefits of good ChiSao work.
Itās tough to find good instruction.. Look hard and try to find the right placeā¦
What do you want to get out of the training?
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
Whole heartedly yes. My lineage rarely ever practices chi sao nor do we use the dummy. Everything is done out of movement. Chi sao serves as a distractor from more proven training methods. There is a reason why some of the best examples of WC are often done by people who arenāt Self-proclaimed WC practitioners.
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
Chi sao is not sparring. Wing Chun is not karate. Of course it is possible to advance in Wing Chun without learning chi sao.
Whatās the real question here? āMy new teacher insisted that I learn the form first, but it is too boring..will someone please confirm that he is doing it wrong?ā 
Directory of Wing Chun schools in Ohio:
http://www.dojoscore.com/schools/browse/n:US/s:Ohio
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
IMO itās possible to advance in WC without chi sao but up to a point what canāt be leaent in drills and sparring chisao must be used to develope those skills. How can you lean how to feel energy if you don do any chi sao type training? the better question would be do you need chi sao to fight and to that answer i would say no..
You can do wing chun without chi saoā¦but if you have real strong chi sao skills (and skills in other drills, wooden dummy, weapons, forms, etc.) - you have better wing chun.
not all Wing Chun schools have the same chi sao format, some are a lot more like toi sao, and some donāt seem to emphasize chi sao drills any where near as much as others. So can you progress without it? Yes, BUT why??? can a boxer progress without focus mitts? Important tools are used and should be kept by those who know how to use them.
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
if you mean to use wing chun style of fighting without chi-saoā¦possibly..but i think time is better spent learning a non-chi sao fighting art like western boxing for example and go that route.
The answer youāre looking for though..is no. chi-sao not only does the obvious like arm sensitivity, but the concept of structure and muscle building in a wing chun context canāt be replicated or built upon any other way..no machine or drill can replicate the benefits, the physiological effects, of chi-sao training.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1000813]I assume you are asking because you want to try and train without exposure to someone who can do ChiSao?
The answer is yes and no.
Yes, you can train some WCK elements both with and without a partner..if you know what they are..
No, it will never impart the same benefits of good ChiSao work.
Itās tough to find good instruction.. Look hard and try to find the right placeā¦
What do you want to get out of the training?[/QUOTE]
What I am wanting out of my training is to know that if anything happens around me, I can defend myself and my friends, if need be! What else can you want out of training, besides being able to beat people up?
Being able to beat people up is important. In order to defend oneās self and his loved ones, he has to be able to beat people up. Simple as that. And yes, you can learn good Wing Chun fighting without chi sao as such. Actually, In my opinion, chi sao is just another drill. It is designed only to allow you to learn the proper way to apply certain pary techniques. The chi sao is exactly what it implies. It is training the chi or proper alignment and energy of these same techinques. I was told early in my training not to let it take on a life of its own. It is not fighting and does not lead to the ability to fight. It is just another drill. In order for you to actually learn the proper applications of what you learn you really need a friend to work with. Both can learn together. However, unless you have an understanding of such things you really need to find someone that can teach you.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1001189]
Actually, In my opinion, chi sao is just another drill. It is designed only to allow you to learn the proper way to apply certain pary techniques.
[/QUOTE]
ChiSao covers a whole hell of a lot more than āparry techniquesā. It covers applications of most of the core WCK methods, tools and tactics in an alive dynamic fluid framework against resistance.
Any stand alone technique drill is what we call SunSao, a part of the whole without continuity and flow, it is dead.. ChiSao (poon sao) while limited is alive training, of the core WCK elements and method. It is not the first drill, nor the last.
So some of what Iām seeing here is that Chi Sau is a āpre set drillā with certain drills and combos that are performedā¦if this is the case then sure it is possible to progress in external movements that look like wing chunā¦
I believe Chi sau shouldnāt be pre-determined in any way because a fight isnātā¦chi sau is the heart of wing chun training according to Great Grandmaster Ip Manā¦most of his emphasis in teaching came through chi sau training since there were other things that could be practiced solo like the forms. Personally I think that Chi sau is the bridge that connects the concepts contained in the forms to fighting. It is through chi sau that we understand elbow energy in a dynamic situation that is a self-defense situation, learning to flow and control our selves and an opponent.
In that respects I donāt believe that Wing Chun can be properly learned or past down without Chi Sau. Those that donāt practice chi sau I think are missing a vital aspect of training that has been one of the unique and defining aspects of Wing chun training.
My humble opinion,
Moses
For those that use chi sao as an indespensible tool,it isnāt possible to progress in WC without it.
For those that DONāT use it that way, or at all, yes, it is possible to progress in WC without it.
So then the real issue seems to be is Chi Sau necessarily part of the cirriculum of wing chun? Can wing chun theories like āstick to what comes, follow what leaves, when hands are free strike directlyā be practiced without chi sau? do they make sense apart from chi sau? Will those lineages that practice chi sau be better or worse than the ones that donāt would be another interesting issue? Is one going to be a ābare bonesā wing chun and the other more complete?
These seems to be the issues that will need to be dealt with if you have āchi sauālessā wing chunā¦
thinking out loud,
Moses