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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;908840]A favorite topic of interest of mine hope you like it..
What is Chi Sao?
In the Fut Sao Wing Chun system, Chi Sao or Sticking Hands practice is not treated as simply a drill or sensitivity exercise as performed by some of the other Wing Chun lineages. In Fut Sao, the practice of Chi Sao, is treated and is equivalent to close quarter fighting. The skills one learns in Chi Sao practice will bring the practitioner to a higher level of development in his art. When one trains in Chi Sao one is not simply practicing a purely physical art but something that is also energy oriented and spiritual as well. When one concentrates on drills or applications one can clearly see that the practice becomes purely a physical and limits development in other areas. As one progresses in Chi Sao, one comes to realize it is not all about fighting but rather knowing yourself and your opponent. When one has reached a high level of proficiency in Chi Sao, the practice of simple drills and applications has almost no functionality. When practicing Chi Sao at such a high level all applications become possible. As mentioned earlier, if one just trains applications and drills he is only training the physical and not the energy side of the art which has no application yet is contained in all applications.
I hear all the time people say, “if your attacked on the street no one will Chi Sao you.” Of course they will not Chi Sao you as Chi Sao is a way of training and an attack on your life is another matter. It seems to me people do not really understand the purpose of Chi Sao training, but something one has to realize is what one does in ones training is designed to build and develop real skills which can be applied at will. Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight. One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you’ve learned has any real value. Chi Sao is about control. If I can control myself and my partner during Chi Sao training then I know I have already won and do not need to go any further. In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I’ll have survived or not. There is no playing; there are no points as seen in Chi Sao competitions.
Another point a lot of people seem to believe is that Chi Sao is merely “the rolling of the hands”. Simply put, Chi Sao is not in the rolling, the contact point or the ability to always stick to the bridge. This brings me to another point, that Chi Sao “is not about always sticking or chasing the hand”. It’s not, as mentioned earlier it’s about control. Chi Sao is found in any type of attack and the defense that one deploys in a real fight scenario. Chi Sao does not have to look a certain way. Again, the essence of Chi Sao is about control. Therefore, if I can control myself and your actions I’m using Chi Sao. WCK is very much based on maintaining a bridge which is conducive to Chi Sao training. Chi Sao training has many advantages over sparring. Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point. As sparring is also a good way to test and develop one’s skills it is not the preferred way in Fut Sao Wing Chun system. Since Wing Chun is about controlled infighting it makes sense to use Chi Sao as a platform to test ones skills. Staying close and maintaining a bridge has an advantage over sparring where contact is lost. For a Wing Chun practitioner to be able to maintain a bridge is to his advantage while to someone like a boxer it is not. In fighting arts like Muay Thai or Western Boxing the idea of controlling the bridge is not part of the training, so Chi Sao is not needed for these types of arts. The advantage when you train with your partner in Chi Sao is that one does not need to gear-up as it is very safe to train granted that one has control. In sparring you must gear-up as there is no control and the idea is to pummel the opponent or score points as in point fighting. In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit. On the other hand, in sparring this is not possible one must hit the opponent. For beginners, psychologically, sparring can have negative effects due to the fear of being hit, and can ultimately affect their confidence and martial arts development.
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Sifu Michael Mc Ilwrath[/QUOTE]
Well said, thank you.
In our/lineage school the constant training of chi sao (including kum na) eventually leads to sparring.
The skills in the applications of the principles are learnt and perfected in chi sao so that in the eventual sparring one does not “forget” nor move away from the art in favor of perhaps hopping (a la boxer or TKD) in and out of the range of the bridge.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;908840]A favorite topic of interest of mine hope you like it..
What is Chi Sao?
[/QUOTE]
In my view, it is a flexible, unrealistic platform for teaching/learning certain attached fighting skills (WCK movements). It is also a drill that has taken on a life of its own and is given much greater significance than it merits.
In the Fut Sao Wing Chun system, Chi Sao or Sticking Hands practice is not treated as simply a drill or sensitivity exercise as performed by some of the other Wing Chun lineages. In Fut Sao, the practice of Chi Sao, is treated and is equivalent to close quarter fighting. The skills one learns in Chi Sao practice will bring the practitioner to a higher level of development in his art. When one trains in Chi Sao one is not simply practicing a purely physical art but something that is also energy oriented and spiritual as well.
In my view, as WCK is an attached fighting method, it is only common sense that its movements would be learned/taught in an attached platform. Anything we do involves “energy”. But chi sao is no more “energy oriented” than any other contact activity. Nor is it “spiritual”. I think when people begin thinking in terms of “energy” and “spirituality” they are lost.
When one concentrates on drills or applications one can clearly see that the practice becomes purely a physical and limits development in other areas. As one progresses in Chi Sao, one comes to realize it is not all about fighting but rather knowing yourself and your opponent. When one has reached a high level of proficiency in Chi Sao, the practice of simple drills and applications has almost no functionality. When practicing Chi Sao at such a high level all applications become possible. As mentioned earlier, if one just trains applications and drills he is only training the physical and not the energy side of the art which has no application yet is contained in all applications.
No one learns “applications” in chi sao (rather what they learn is what they believe will work in fighting); application is fighting – it is using your WCK movement/skills while actually fighting. Chi sao isn’t fighting, so there is no application nor can there be. You may be “practicing” the movements of WCK, but not in their “proper” context.
I hear all the time people say, “if your attacked on the street no one will Chi Sao you.” Of course they will not Chi Sao you as Chi Sao is a way of training and an attack on your life is another matter. It seems to me people do not really understand the purpose of Chi Sao training, but something one has to realize is what one does in ones training is designed to build and develop real skills which can be applied at will. Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight. One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you’ve learned has any real value. Chi Sao is about control. If I can control myself and my partner during Chi Sao training then I know I have already won and do not need to go any further. In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I’ll have survived or not. There is no playing; there are no points as seen in Chi Sao competitions.
Fighting skills only come from fighting – not from chi sao. Chi sao teaches you the contact movements/skills of WCK. It’s like riding the bike with the training wheels on – you do that to learn but you can do that forever and you won’t be able to ride the bike. Developing skill in riding the bike only begins once you take off the training wheels.
Another point a lot of people seem to believe is that Chi Sao is merely “the rolling of the hands”. Simply put, Chi Sao is not in the rolling, the contact point or the ability to always stick to the bridge. This brings me to another point, that Chi Sao “is not about always sticking or chasing the hand”. It’s not, as mentioned earlier it’s about control. Chi Sao is found in any type of attack and the defense that one deploys in a real fight scenario. Chi Sao does not have to look a certain way. Again, the essence of Chi Sao is about control. Therefore, if I can control myself and your actions I’m using Chi Sao. WCK is very much based on maintaining a bridge which is conducive to Chi Sao training. Chi Sao training has many advantages over sparring. Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point. As sparring is also a good way to test and develop one’s skills it is not the preferred way in Fut Sao Wing Chun system. Since Wing Chun is about controlled infighting it makes sense to use Chi Sao as a platform to test ones skills. Staying close and maintaining a bridge has an advantage over sparring where contact is lost. For a Wing Chun practitioner to be able to maintain a bridge is to his advantage while to someone like a boxer it is not. In fighting arts like Muay Thai or Western Boxing the idea of controlling the bridge is not part of the training, so Chi Sao is not needed for these types of arts. The advantage when you train with your partner in Chi Sao is that one does not need to gear-up as it is very safe to train granted that one has control. In sparring you must gear-up as there is no control and the idea is to pummel the opponent or score points as in point fighting. In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit. On the other hand, in sparring this is not possible one must hit the opponent. For beginners, psychologically, sparring can have negative effects due to the fear of being hit, and can ultimately affect their confidence and martial arts development.
As I see it, the method/approach of WCK is to control while striking an opponent. Chi sao can be used as a platform to teach the movement/skills needed to do that. The limitation of chi sao is that it is unrealistic – it doesn’t correspond to how an opponent will really behave (move, act, intensity, etc.) in fighting. And that’s because, in part, your chi sao partner is doing chi sao, using WCK movements in certain prescribed ways. If you have any doubts about this, just get someone who isn’t a WCK practitioner, start “in contact” and tell them to fight with you. You’ll see it ain’t nothin’ like chi sao.
If you do this, you’ll also see that you won’t be able to make your attached fighting skills work. And that’s because you’ve never taken the training wheels off and tried to ride the bike.
In my view, once we learn the movement/skills of chi sao and can perform them consistently and comfortably, then to continue doing chi sao is simply wasting time – it’s continuing to ride around with the training wheels on. At that point, to develop any further, you need to take the training wheels off, to start fighting while attached to an opponent. Chi sao is beginner-level WCK – just as riding around with the training wheels on is beginner-level bicycle riding.
I totally disagree with the previous post. Chi Sau is all about fighting. I think the misconception is that ‘chi sau’ has to start with 2 people facing each other in ‘contact’ on both hands and from rolling. That’s just one part of bridge training, but it’s far from limited to that.
How we approach chi sau is just the opposite. Students first start within the Kiu Sau modules and almost none of the training starts with any contact. Everything starts from pre-contact and then an attack is thrown, a bridge is found, etc - just like in fighting. The students are learning how to engage with their opponent, which has to happen before they can learn to stick with them, destroy their structure or bridges, etc. This is training to fight, not to roll with our opponent in a set platform. Now, I also feel Taan/Bong/Fook rolling platform is important and has merit too (and is about fighting as well). But that timeframe can only happen after the engagement and only with a certain distance and facing.
It was said “If you have any doubts about this, just get someone who isn’t a WCK practitioner, start “in contact” and tell them to fight with you. You’ll see it ain’t nothin’ like chi sao”. I think I see the point, but IMO this shows the poster only looks at chi sau training as taan/bong/fook, dui ying, 2 hands already engaged rolling platform. From my experience this is where the training culminates/end, not begins. A fight typically starts from the outside and works it’s way in, and that’s where we start our ‘chi sau training’.
JP
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As I see it, WCK is an attached fighting method: we want to get attached and fight from there.
So, in a sense, we can see WCK as having 2 parts: getting an attached position and then using the attached position.
As I see it, chi sao (sticky hands) is a platform to learn/teach the movements/skills pertaining to the latter as it is an attached drill (which is much, much more than tan, bong, fook and rolling). If you aren’t attached, there can be no “sticky hands”. As I learned it, the former (getting an attached position) was called “dap sao” or “joining hands” (more accurately ‘riding hands’). Since we want to join in ways that will facilitate our control, it makes sense to first learn the controlling (attached) aspect and then how to get there. Otherwise, you may find that you join in ways that are disadvantageous.
Once again, however, chi sao and dap sao are learning/teaching platforms – they are riding the bike with the trianing wheels on. They are not realistic platforms and you don’t develop realistic skills from those drills/platforms. Skill and the corresponding understanding/knowledge only begins once you remove the traiing wheels.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909231]First of all you have never seen or know How I do Chi Sao,so you don’t know what your talking about. Fighting while attached is what we do.We do not chi sao with the training wheels on as you put it.Again you’ve never seen me chi sao so you have no idea.And I have trained many times with guys who do not know WCK or Chi Sao and they use their stuff and I use WCK and it works fine. If you can’t make your stufff work then you have had poor instruction,and from reading your my post it’s very clear you have no idea about WC and certainly Chi Sao.[/QUOTE]
It doesn’t matter how you “do” chi sao. Chi sao is WCK with the training wheels on regardless of how you do it. It’s with the training wheels on since your partner is not – and cannot within the parameters of chi sao – behaving like someone who is really fighting you. If they did behave that way, they would be really fighitng you! So it is by its very nature unrealistic. And you can’t develop realistic skills through unrealistic practice (in large part because you are not receiving realistic intensity, actions, attacks, etc. from your partner to work and practice against, thereby not learning and developing how to deal with those things).
FWIW, people make claims all the time (I’ve used my stuff and it really works). Claims are empty without evidence.
Chi Sao reminds me a lot of clinch drills that are done in MT and wrestling, the difference being that THOSE drills are almost identical to the practical application of them within the relm that they will be used.
They start off in a position that will happen competition ( for example) and they work within that context.
They are drills chi sao is viewed as a drill to and put within that category, it works well enough at that certain stage.
But the issue becomes, truly, the start position and everyone basically does it that same way and we will never start ANYTHING that way, will we?
Good post and I couldn´t have put it better myself!
I would like to add that I also disagree with T_niehoff´s statement regarding Chi Sao being a beginner´s exercise. This shows a lack of understanding and appreciation of the scope of chi sao.
At one level chi sao is a type of sensitivity and softness training and that IMHO is an eternal quest as one always will need to improve those aspects.
As far as the fighting aspect is concerned chi sao can be as realistic as you make it as it is very easy to escelate to a San Sao mode when one desires so (and is able to).
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;909238]It doesn’t matter how you “do” chi sao. Chi sao is WCK with the training wheels on regardless of how you do it. It’s with the training wheels on since your partner is not – and cannot within the parameters of chi sao – behaving like someone who is really fighting you. If they did behave that way, they would be really fighitng you! So it is by its very nature unrealistic. And you can’t develop realistic skills through unrealistic practice (in large part because you are not receiving realistic intensity, actions, attacks, etc. from your partner to work and practice against, thereby not learning and developing how to deal with those things).
FWIW, people make claims all the time (I’ve used my stuff and it really works). Claims are empty without evidence.[/QUOTE]
I’ll tell you what if you like to see if my chi sao can work you can try me out. I teach in NYC. if you like I’ll give you my personal info and we can meet and you can see if what I do is all talk…
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;909289]Good post and I couldn´t have put it better myself!
I would like to add that I also disagree with T_niehoff´s statement regarding Chi Sao being a beginner´s exercise. This shows a lack of understanding and appreciation of the scope of chi sao.
At one level chi sao is a type of sensitivity and softness training and that IMHO is an eternal quest as one always will need to improve those aspects.
As far as the fighting aspect is concerned chi sao can be as realistic as you make it as it is very easy to escelate to a San Sao mode when one desires so (and is able to).[/QUOTE]
Exactly..it’s nice to hear someone has some common sense..
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;908840] Chi Sao gives one the means necessary to reach that level of skill of which I am writing of. When you Chi Sao with your partner it is more like the testing grounds of an actual fight.[/QUOTE]
Chi sao is nothing like a fight. The skill you will learn will be that of chi sao, not fighting.
One does not need to pummel your partner into the ground in order to see if what you’ve learned has any real value.
The fact is, if you want to be good, you have to have experience of both giving and taking significant amounts of damage. The guy who has never had his world rocked in training is the guy who will fold quickly on the street.
In a real fight it will be over very quick. Once a move has been made it will have already ended and either I’ll have survived or not.
LOL… very few fights end with one move. Even a knife attack usually takes more than one move.
Most styles practice sparring from a non bridge non contact point.
Because that is the way that real fighting happens.
In Chi Sao, if practiced correctly, one can know he could have been hit without actually being hit.
Actually getting hit is a significant part of what makes someone a better fighter.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909231]First of all you have never seen or know How I do Chi Sao,so you don’t know what your talking about. Fighting while attached is what we do.We do not chi sao with the training wheels on as you put it.Again you’ve never seen me chi sao so you have no idea.And I have trained many times with guys who do not know WCK or Chi Sao and they use their stuff and I use WCK and it works fine. If you can’t make your stufff work then you have had poor instruction,and from reading your my post it’s very clear you have no idea about WC and certainly Chi Sao.[/QUOTE]
In these days of ubiquitous You Tube videos, it should be easy to post a clip so he can see how you chi sao.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909294]I’ll tell you what if you like to see if my chi sao can work you can try me out. I teach in NYC. if you like I’ll give you my personal info and we can meet and you can see if what I do is all talk…[/QUOTE]
LOL… at telling someone to come see you. Here’s a better idea. Go see him… or just post a clip of you actually going full force against a resisting opponent who is actually trying to do damage.
Of course we know neither of those is going to happen.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909297]Exactly..it’s nice to hear someone has some common sense..[/QUOTE]
Thanks stonecrusher and it is good to meet one of the few here that actually practices real Wing Chun and understands the scope and richness of this art.
HW108
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;909308]Thanks stonecrusher and it is good to meet one of the few here that actually practices real Wing Chun and understands the scope and richness of this art.:)[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure there is some “real” WC out there, but I have a good idea it is nothing like what you and he are practicing.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;909311]I’m pretty sure there is some “real” WC out there, but I have a good idea it is nothing like what you and he are practicing.[/QUOTE]
From your past posts in this thread I have concluded that you have no idea about real WC nor what we practice, but then if you are happy with what you practice, then so am I (as long as you don´t make us practice it too). 
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;909301]In these days of ubiquitous You Tube videos, it should be easy to post a clip so he can see how you chi sao.[/QUOTE]
Instead of me posting a clip fo me doing Chi Sao with an unknown it would be better if you or t_niehoff spare with me, and I’ll video tape and then post it on you- tube that way it will represent wherther a person such as your self or T who has the real stuff . Email me at futsaowingchun@gmail.com
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909319]Instead of me posting a clip fo me doing Chi Sao with an unknown it would be better if you or t_niehoff spare with me I’ll video it then post it to u- tube that way it will represent a person such as your and T who has the real stuff . Email me at futsaowingchun@gmail.com[/QUOTE]
I don’t think ANY of them are near NJ, Dale is in California.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909294]I’ll tell you what if you like to see if my chi sao can work you can try me out. I teach in NYC. if you like I’ll give you my personal info and we can meet and you can see if what I do is all talk…[/QUOTE]
Another internet ploy. Well, we both know that I’m not going to NYC just to meet you and you aren’t coming to St. Louis.
You posted your perspective and I responded with mine. Lots of WCK people believe their chi sao – especially the way THEY do it (and not like the rest of us poor slobs) – develop fighting skills. It’s one of the standard claims of TMAs: learn and develop greater fighting ability without fighting. To paraphrase Hemingway, “wouldn’t it be pretty if it were so.” It’s just that it isn’t so.
But if you want to prove your chi sao develops fighting skills there is an easy way – take your video camera with you to a local MMA school or muay thai academy (and not with your own “students”) and spar with some decently skilled, athletic guys, then post your video showing that you do in sparring what you do in chi sao. It’s that simple. It’s the same simple way anyone can show that their unrealistic training methods or “theories” (including their one-inch punch) work. Unfortunately, we never see that. And for a very good reason.