I think we are getting off track here and making this personal.
The thread is about “what is chi sao” not who has the "REAL chi sao.
I think where people get separated in their views is to the degree of importance of chi sao over everything else in WC.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;909321]Another internet ploy. Well, we both know that I’m not going to NYC just to meet you and you aren’t coming to St. Louis.
You posted your perspective and I responded with mine. Lots of WCK people believe their chi sao – especially the way THEY do it (and not like the rest of us poor slobs) – develop fighting skills. It’s one of the standard claims of TMAs: learn and develop greater fighting ability without fighting. To paraphrase Hemingway, “wouldn’t it be pretty if it were so.” It’s just that it isn’t so.
But if you want to prove your chi sao develops fighting skills there is an easy way – take your video camera with you to a local MMA school or muay thai academy (and not with your own “students”) and spar with some decently skilled, athletic guys, then post your video showing that you do in sparring what you do in chi sao. It’s that simple. It’s the same simple way anyone can show that their unrealistic training methods or “theories” (including their one-inch punch) work. Unfortunately, we never see that. And for a very good reason.[/QUOTE]
If you want to see REAL WING CHUN come to the NYC . Enough talk.Talk is cheap. Lets meet and cross hands. Other wise we can talk all day long and it does not prove anything. I’m willing to meet with you and spar.Come to NYC , we can test skills.If your ever in NYC look me up then we can meet. If you can’t come to NYC is not my problem. The offer is open to you. I don’t have beef with local MMA gyms it’s you that I have. MMA guys don’t talk smack..
If you don’t meet with me. I won’t bother posting as you are wasting my time. If you7 think you can fight then fight me..I’m waiting.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909330]If you don’t meet with me. I won’t bother posting as you are wasting my time. If you7 think you can fight then fight me..I’m waiting.[/QUOTE]
While T and sometimes KF posts get on nerves at times, usually when they make a blanket statement or over generalize, fighting them won’t prove anything.
I don’t like Floyd Mayweather Jr’s pad work, in fact I think it stinkes, but he would kick my ass all over the place.
Yet I have fought guys at the local boxing gym that do pad work like that and I have beaten all 3 , 2 ending in a “KO”.
None of that proves anything other than Flyod can kick my ass and I kicked the ass of 3 boxers.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909329]If you want to see REAL WING CHUN come to the NYC . Enough talk.Talk is cheap. Lets meet and cross hands. Other wise we can talk all day long and it does not prove anything. I’m willing to meet with you and spar.Come to NYC , we can test skills.If your ever in NYC look me up then we can meet. If you can’t come to NYC is not my problem. The offer is open to you. I don’t have beef with local MMA gyms it’s you that I have. MMA guys don’t talk smack..[/QUOTE]
Oh, I didn’t realize that YOU have the REAL WING CHUN! Ah, that explains it.
Sorry, someone else already has the real wing chun:
or if you prefer:
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;909348]Sorry, someone else already has the real wing chun:
http://www.realwingchun.com/[/QUOTE]
LOL! Yeah, they all have “the REAL wing chun.”
There are certain “give-away” phrases and that’s one of them.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;909350]LOL! Yeah, they all have “the REAL wing chun.”
There are certain “give-away” phrases and that’s one of them.[/QUOTE]
If your so sure of your self why don’t you go to there Kwoon and try them out? If you like I’ll cut and paste it and send it to the sifu.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909377]If your so sure of your self why don’t you go to there Kwoon and try them out? If you like I’ll cut and paste it and send it to the sifu.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I’m going to devote my life and spend all of my time and money traveling around the world showing people with the REAL WING CHUN how deluded they are. But wait, I can save myself all that work by telling them all they need to do to see for themselves is go to a local MMA or muay thai gym and spend some time mixing it up with guys with decent skills. Funny, they won’t do that but will insist they have the REAL WING CHUN. I guess it’s not so surprising – after all, they don’t have a beef with them! 
Haaaa!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;909379]Yes, I’m going to devote my life and spend all of my time and money traveling around the world showing people with the REAL WING CHUN how deluded they are. But wait, I can save myself all that work by telling them all they need to do to see for themselves is go to a local MMA or muay thai gym and spend some time mixing it up with guys with decent skills. Funny, they won’t do that but will insist they have the REAL WING CHUN. I guess it’s not so surprising – after all, they don’t have a beef with them! Haaaa![/QUOTE]
If you can’t back up what you say then who will take you for real? people who have something can back up what they say. If your not willing to back it up then shut up!!
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;909379]Yes, I’m going to devote my life and spend all of my time and money traveling around the world showing people with the REAL WING CHUN how deluded they are. But wait, I can save myself all that work by telling them all they need to do to see for themselves is go to a local MMA or muay thai gym and spend some time mixing it up with guys with decent skills. Funny, they won’t do that but will insist they have the REAL WING CHUN. I guess it’s not so surprising – after all, they don’t have a beef with them! Haaaa![/QUOTE]
You mean that you have never fought a REAL Wing Chun expert? Or a real kung fu expert? Yet you go around making negative assumptions about an art in which you do not even have any expertise and about practitioners that you do not know personally?
From your posts on the subject of chi sao I have concluded that you see it as a one dimensional exercise. You have not addressed the sensitivity and “listening” aspects nor have you acknowledged the various intensities of this type of training. This shows your lack of understanding about the subject. That is ok too because authentic Wing Chun and kung fu in general are not what you practice.
What is not ok is you badmouthing others who have a more holistic understanding of this art because they perhaps train it ? And more authentically than you at that.
Your whole approach to the subject doesnt sound very “functional” to me!
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909381]If you can’t back up what you say then who will take you for real? people who have something can back up what they say. If your not willing to back it up then shut up!![/QUOTE]
Actually, it is you who is making claims about chi sao and then not backing it up. We are just telling you that your claims are b.s.
Back it up by traveling and proving it go go out locally and prove it. Sitting on you behind telling people to come to your school is proving nothing.
If you are not willing to go out and back up what you say, then STFU.
Stonecrusher i love Chi sau, but ive only got to this POV through balancing it with sparring which is a must IMO if your looking to be a good VT fighter.
They both give the trainee skills you cant attain anyother way IMHO.
Moreover CS and sparring can both be trained at any level of intensity and have more similarites than some may care to admit.
I do believe though that sparring has more to offer in reagrd to attaining actual fighting skill than CS does. But conversly i dont believe one can be a good VT fighter without having good CS skills.
To me a VT fighter needs pleanty of both… and generally speaking the average person should get good at CS first then intergrate sparring into thier training so as to adhere to VT ways..because lets face it VT has actions so foreign to everyday body behavior as well as mental behavior you need to drill that in up front.
Lets not get stuck into advocating one training method only. The whole idea of Chi Sau is to let things go and use what appears maintaining personal control.
A far cry from staunching up on an oppinion and making d i c k h e a d challenges.
DREW
…
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;909427]Sparring is fine..Options are good to have.[/QUOTE]
It’s much more than an “option”, particularly if your objective is to develop fighting skill.
I find it amazing that in the 21st century, with all the science, evidence, resources, etc. available, many people still don’t – or won’t – grasp that unrealistic training (including forms, chi sao, etc.) doesn’t and can’t produce realistic fighting skills (at least to any significant degree). That to develop fighting skills we need to train like fighters do – which means, quite simply, fighting: putting in loads of time realistically sparring with quality opponents. And, that our fighting skill (performance) level will directly correspond to the amount of quality sparring we’ve done (little quality sparring produces little skill, greater amounts of quality sparring produces greater amounts of skill).
Curious T, do you train Chi Sau when you teach WC? How do you teach WC if the training tools and methods are so outdated? And sorry, sparring alone doesn’t cut it..
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;909466]Curious T, do you train Chi Sau when you teach WC? How do you teach WC if the training tools and methods are so outdated? And sorry, sparring alone doesn’t cut it..[/QUOTE]
If you read my posts on this thread, I think you’d see your question is already answered. I could just point you to my first post which answers your question, but to simplify it for you:
Chi sao “is a flexible, unrealistic platform for teaching/learning certain attached fighting skills (WCK movements).”
But “fighting skills only come from fighting – not from chi sao. Chi sao teaches you the contact movements/skills of WCK. It’s like riding the bike with the training wheels on – you do that to learn but you can do that forever and you won’t be able to ride the bike.”
“Chi sao can be used as a platform to teach the movement/skills needed to do that. The limitation of chi sao is that it is unrealistic – it doesn’t correspond to how an opponent will really behave (move, act, intensity, etc.) in fighting. And that’s because, in part, your chi sao partner is doing chi sao, using WCK movements in certain prescribed ways.”
“In my view, once we learn the movement/skills of chi sao and can perform them consistently and comfortably, then to continue doing chi sao is simply wasting time – it’s continuing to ride around with the training wheels on. At that point, to develop any further, you need to take the training wheels off, to start fighting while attached to an opponent. Chi sao is beginner-level WCK – just as riding around with the training wheels on is beginner-level bicycle riding.”
I think I understand. You use Chi Sau (as the rolling platform) only for beginners to build a certain skill set unrealistically then put it to the test realistically in sparring. At this point you disregard the trianing method.
What this tells me is you only view chi sau from the idea of a rolling platform, and not as a real fighting skill set. I think this is why you can’t see what others here are saying - that chi sau is all about fighting throught one’s trianing.
From my view, it’s not just for beginers, but something that should be worked on throughout one’s entire progress. Even in boxing, once you learn your basic punches, you don’t stop drlling them and only use them in sparring. But of course, I’m not talking about just the tann/bong/fook, “1, 2, 3 roll!” type of training. Chi sau is a whole lot more than that.
Is it safe to assume your understanding of chi sau could be limited to just this?
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;909482]I think I understand. You use Chi Sau (as the rolling platform) only for beginners to build a certain skill set unrealistically then put it to the test realistically in sparring. At this point you disregard the trianing method.
What this tells me is you only view chi sau from the idea of a rolling platform, and not as a real fighting skill set. I think this is why you can’t see what others here are saying - that chi sau is all about fighting throught one’s trianing.
[/QUOTE]
No, you don’t understand what I am saying at all. Chi sao, no matter how you do it or what platform you use, is BY ITS VERY NATURE AN UNREALISTIC EXERCISE in that it is not realistic (it doesn’t correspond to what really happens in a fight) – as your partner is not behaving like someone who is really (hell-bent on) fighting you. As your partner isn’t providing you with realistic behaviors, pressures, attacks, defenses, etc., you can’t develop realistic skills to deal with those sorts of things.
This is not to say the exercise is worthless. Like any unrealistic exercise, it permits you to learn skills. But THESE ARE NOT FIGHTING SKILLS. THEY ARE NOT FIGHTING SKILLS UNTIL THEY CAN BE USED SUCCESSFULLY AND CONSISTENTLY IN FIGHTING. If you can’t make X work in fighitng, it can hardly be called a fighting skill, can it?
So, for avery simple example, while you can LEARN a bong-lop da in the chi sao platform, the ability to perform it in chi sao in no way indicates you can do it in fighting. And until you can do it in fighting, successfully and consistently, it hasn’t been developed into a fighting skill.
The only way to develop a fighting skill is by and through fighting. Realistic skills come from realistic training – not from unrealistic training.
Someone who can perform a bong-lop da in chi sao consistently and successfully has learned the skill. But it is not a fighting skill. More chi sao won’t develop their bong-lop da into a fighting skill, no matter how long they continue to practice it in chi sao. At that point, they need to leave chi sao behind them and start training that skill realistically – in sparring.
From my view, it’s not just for beginers, but something that should be worked on throughout one’s entire progress. Even in boxing, once you learn your basic punches, you don’t stop drlling them and only use them in sparring. But of course, I’m not talking about just the tann/bong/fook, “1, 2, 3 roll!” type of training. Chi sau is a whole lot more than that.
Is it safe to assume your understanding of chi sau could be limited to just this?
I don’t know where your notion that I’m talking about tan/bong/fook and rolling. Chi sao is a flexible platform and that is just one aspect of the platform.
I am not saying that you won’t or shouldn’t continue to practice the basics – just that how you practice those basics will need to change. Cyclists continue to practice the basics of riding the bike even after they leave the training wheels behind. 