Hi Guys!
The discussions about Chi Sao on some of the various recent threads got me to do some thinking. I decided to organize those thoughts by putting them into an article for my website. This is how I see the purpose of Chi Sao. I’ll be adding some pics later to spice it up a bit. Check it out here:
Common sort of “how I see chi-sao” but you fail to mention the basic purpose of the drill..it is preceded by a one arm drill , that takes that development to 2 arms , then random attack/counter drills…
BUT one thing being developed the whole time even without ‘contact reflexes’ its in the dummy , same ideas…developing what ?
It started in the SLT…the young idea, basic set, little idea, 1st form…?
why would you wait until chi-sao to be developing IT ?
[QUOTE=KPM;860087]Hi Guys!
The discussions about Chi Sao on some of the various recent threads got me to do some thinking. I decided to organize those thoughts by putting them into an article for my website. This is how I see the purpose of Chi Sao. I’ll be adding some pics later to spice it up a bit. Check it out here:
http://riograndewingchun.com/gpage2.html[/QUOTE]
You made the comparison between Judo Randori and WC Chi sao again.
The difference is that Judo Randori covers almost all the techniques of Judo. Chi sao does not cover almost all the techniques of WC. WC sparring would be the “equivalent” of Judo Randori.
In Judo you don’t just come to grips like you describe. There’s a fight for grips. You don’t just allow someone to even get a grip ideally.
Shi Sao has several purposes. But I think people get off into it to deeply. It becomes their WC actually. Chi Sao is used to train your weapons as well as your defenses. It can also work to exercise your footwork to a small extent. Shifting your center to be more exact. For instance, it is a way that you can practive the application of your defenses, such as Tan sao, fuk sao, bong sao. And striking from these techniques. It teaches you to use both or either hand equally well, and it teaches you to multi task with your hands and arms. Defend with one hand while attacking with the other, defending and attacking with the same hand, and back and forth. It is just a drill that works quite well. I find that when people do chi sao they like to compete as if fighting in some bazaar way.
In my life I have had many altercations, but never in a single one have I ever fought someone in the manner in which we do Chi Sao. But, I have used the techniques that we practice during chi sao. In watching a couple of guys Chi Sao I noticed that they did not use good form when doing these hand techniques. Tan sao for instance, is not to leave center line. In order to make it effective we shift our center to intersect the elbow or forarm of the attacker. This makes it work. When Chi Sao’ing I noticed that most will be making the tan sao off to the right or left of center. They did not shift their center to intersect contact. So if you are not real careful and do not practice proper alignment of center you will be subject to being hammered in a fight.
Chi Sao is a repetitive action. You do the same over and over again. You can use a lot of different techniques during Chi Sao, not just the 3. But you need to understand that is is just a cooperative way for 2 people to practice their defense moves. And you need to learn to shift your center while doing all this. You can even practice your attack moves as well. It is not a compitition at all, but simply 2 people cooperating to practice their skills. Mostly the basic stuff you learn within the first form. Sil Lim Tao, it actually means, use your imagination.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;860091]Common sort of “how I see chi-sao” but you fail to mention the basic purpose of the drill..it is preceded by a one arm drill , that takes that development to 2 arms , then random attack/counter drills…
BUT one thing being developed the whole time even without ‘contact reflexes’ its in the dummy , same ideas…developing what ?
It started in the SLT…the young idea, basic set, little idea, 1st form…?
why would you wait until chi-sao to be developing IT ?[/QUOTE]
Why do you always post in questions? Just say what you want to say! What’s your point? I never said that Chi Sao was the exclusive and only way to develop IT. Its just one of the ways in a progression of training.
Chi Sao is used to train your weapons as well as your defenses. It can also work to exercise your footwork to a small extent.
—I would say that it is more than a “small” extent. 
It teaches you to use both or either hand equally well, and it teaches you to multi task with your hands and arms. Defend with one hand while attacking with the other, defending and attacking with the same hand, and back and forth.
—Good points. I guess I see that as being part of both “good structure” and “contact reflexes.”
But you need to understand that is is just a cooperative way for 2 people to practice their defense moves.
—Ah! But one of my points was that it shouldn’t be too cooperative! If your partner never challenges you, you don’t advance and develop. So at a certain point of development, it can seem very “uncooperative”! 
[QUOTE=Edmund;860094]You made the comparison between Judo Randori and WC Chi sao again.
The difference is that Judo Randori covers almost all the techniques of Judo. Chi sao does not cover almost all the techniques of WC. WC sparring would be the “equivalent” of Judo Randori.
In Judo you don’t just come to grips like you describe. There’s a fight for grips. You don’t just allow someone to even get a grip ideally.[/QUOTE]
In Chi Sao all techniques can be used that I can think of.I can’t think of any techinque that can’t be used if needed.
How would you describe IT ?
[QUOTE=k gledhill;860181]How would you describe IT ?[/QUOTE]
And I’ll ask again…why do you always post in question? Just say what you’re thinking! Hendrik liked to play the “oriental master” role around here in the past and it didn’t go over well. We’re all here to discuss, not to be treated like your student. Say what you want to say and stop the BS.
[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;860175]In Chi Sao all techniques can be used that I can think of.I can’t think of any techinque that can’t be used if needed.[/QUOTE]
Bridging techniques.
Chi sao is after bridging has occurred.
Contact range?..FIGHTING range!
KPM blog:
‘Chi Sao is a developmental training exercise, not an end in itself. It was designed to develop the range at which the Wing Chun system excels. This is often referred to as the “contact range.” It is the distance at which two fighters can reach out and cross forearms.’
I can understand what you are getting at there except that the explaination isnt complete. Just because Chunnas are touching wrists doesnt mean they are training a practical distance in thier Chi-Sao. Just as important is the follow-through range. Chi-Sao also needs to be done at a range where the strikes or attacks actually penetrate through an opponent not just strike at him/her. Touching is one thing but from that point is thier any real followthough? Are you actually close enough to hit with power from the contact at the wrists or are your arms already fully or almost fully extended? Important questions.
It is unanswered questions like these that make it difficult for Chunnas to see how Chi-Sao is the bridge between the art and the application, the form and the function.
When I say cooperative I mean exactly that. You can make it more realistic by being resistant to your training partner, but that in itself is cooperating. You do what you can to make training more realistic. Like I said earlier, I have been envolved in a number of altercations in my life and have yet to fight anyone in the manner in which I do Chi Sao. 2 WC pratitionsers might be able to do this in training themselves, but if one is not trained in WC he is not going to be cooperative as such. This has proven to be the way of it. The techniques I trained were still good to go, just not like you would expect. And it is simply not realistic to expect anything more. I do not think about range, because if a man is close enough to strike me, I am close enough to strike him.
You can still grab and jerk his hands or arm down to clear way to hit him, and you can grab and pull him off balance and into your punch, and you do not have to have your arms crossed to do this. The cross armed training is just a way of training your defenses and also striking from your defense. It is just a drill that has little to nothing to do with actual fighting. I find it most useful in training your hands to do actions seperate from one another in a rapid and fluid motion.
[QUOTE=KPM;860236]And I’ll ask again…why do you always post in question? Just say what you’re thinking! Hendrik liked to play the “oriental master” role around here in the past and it didn’t go over well. We’re all here to discuss, not to be treated like your student. Say what you want to say and stop the BS.[/QUOTE]
I’m writing for everyone to ask themselves , not just you 
[QUOTE=Edmund;860245]Bridging techniques.
Chi sao is after bridging has occurred.[/QUOTE]
—I don’t see Chi Sao as happening “after bridging.” I see it as establishing and crossing the bridge. The Chi Sao platform is a way to maintain the bridge. The skill is learning to cross the bridge effectively and safely.
[QUOTE=Graychuan;860247]KPM blog:
‘Chi Sao is a developmental training exercise, not an end in itself. It was designed to develop the range at which the Wing Chun system excels. This is often referred to as the “contact range.” It is the distance at which two fighters can reach out and cross forearms.’
I can understand what you are getting at there except that the explaination isnt complete. Just because Chunnas are touching wrists doesnt mean they are training a practical distance in thier Chi-Sao. Just as important is the follow-through range. Chi-Sao also needs to be done at a range where the strikes or attacks actually penetrate through an opponent not just strike at him/her. Touching is one thing but from that point is thier any real followthough? Are you actually close enough to hit with power from the contact at the wrists or are your arms already fully or almost fully extended? Important questions.
It is unanswered questions like these that make it difficult for Chunnas to see how Chi-Sao is the bridge between the art and the application, the form and the function.[/QUOTE]
At the “follow through range” you are still in contact…its still the same range. Its when you reach the point that you can hit with elbows or have body to body contact that you have moved into the next range. Then Chi Sao becomes more of a standing grappling situation or clinch game. Then it is no longer “classic” Chi Sao.
I have my answer .
—Then feel free to share it!
I’m writing for everyone to ask themselves , not just you
—None of us are your students.
You post a thread and ask people to discuss, then you get the ‘hump’ when questioned
—I don’t have the up “hump.” Whatever IT is! Its just that few of us appreciate the “oriental master” act. If you have something to say and a point to make, then DO it. That is discussing. Playing the “I know the answer, do you!?” game is not discussing.
I have my answer .
—Then feel free to share it!
I’m writing for everyone to ask themselves , not just you
—None of us are your students.
You post a thread and ask people to discuss, then you get the ‘hump’ when questioned
—I don’t have the “hump.” Whatever IT is! Its just that few of us appreciate the “oriental master” act. If you have something to say and a point to make, then DO it. That is discussing. Playing the “I know the answer, do you!?” game is not discussing.
My apologies for upsetting you. I bow out of your thread humbly.
k gledhill, I don’t think he’s upset, it’s just that your form of nudge wink secret knowledge stuff is pointless on a forum. You have to put your ideas forth for people to be able to discuss them.
I’ve seen you do this routine many times before and I think you don’t actually want to discuss anything..you’d rather wait for people to say things that you don’t agree with and then s****** and appear superior. As I said this is completely pointless. Just say what you want to say.
Sorry no more posts , Guy B. you can ask KPM again sorry for upsetting you too .
you both should be telling me what I’m asking …its a common idea .