Chi Sao only works when you do it with people that know how to chi sao. If you try to chi sao with people who don’t chi sao or don’t do martial arts it turns badly for the one trying to chi Sao.
There are rules involved and wc people learn a stylized way of dealing with force. These stylized ways don’t work well against someone who doesn’t know the rules.
Therefore I have decided that the skills and sensitivity learned in chi sao don’t transfer well because of the stylized platform they are drilled on. I’m nOt saying they can’t be transferred to sparring or other arts but it is hard to unless drilled in a more live way.
For example, there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn’t work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.
If you are referring specifically to double handed Taan/Bong/Fook style of chi sao, then I would agree that it’s application is very limited.
However, there are many different categories of chi sao which address different pieces of combat. Ergo I cannot say that Chi Sao as a whole only works on people who know how to do it. I have already proven otherwise in my own training.
If you are referring specifically to double handed Taan/Bong/Fook style of chi sao, then I would agree that it’s application is very limited.
However, there are many different categories of chi sao which address different pieces of combat. Ergo I cannot say that Chi Sao as a whole only works on people who know how to do it. I have already proven otherwise in my own training.[/QUOTE]
When I say chi sao I’m referring to any drill where you start off already connected and try to engage in flowing.
Engagement is a big part of Wing Chun, certain engagements require certain responses, chi sao is not always one of the correct ones.
In HFY our mindset is one of going for hitting first, only sticking when we have to. Really, it’s more on the opponent to put us somewhere we have to stick, and if he doesn’t, no chi sao necessary.
[QUOTE=Eric_H;1125214]I think I can see where you are coming from.
Engagement is a big part of Wing Chun, certain engagements require certain responses, chi sao is not always one of the correct ones.
In HFY our mindset is one of going for hitting first, only sticking when we have to. Really, it’s more on the opponent to put us somewhere we have to stick, and if he doesn’t, no chi sao necessary.[/QUOTE]
So are you saying you strike repeatedly until presented with a reason to use a wc parry? That’s a sound philosophy if that’s what you’re getting at.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1125220]The chi sao isnt how we fight, your right it doesnt work as the drill for sparring/figjting.[/QUOTE]
If the specific skills such as threading only work when the other guy is holding his arm out, like in chi sao, does that mean chi sao type drills don’t need to be trained at all?
Chi sau is not fighting, it is an excersise that improves certain attributes and structures within the body to enable one to fight better. Think of it this way, you have an axe to chop wood with, the axe does the work of actually chopping the wood, but you need a tool to sharpen the axe otherwise the axe will not work as efficiently as it could be. You can’t chop wood with the sharpen tool, but you need it to chop wood effectively with the axe. Get my meaning?
Chi sau is a way to introduce the WC ideas of being more efficient, simple and direct with our movements in a fight, rather than leaning stylized movements that are so unnatural that they would never work in a fight. You don’t fight using WC, rather you train in the system so that you can move/fight more effectively in fight.
This took me a long time to realize and it’s a different way of thinking regarding fight training. It’s more so for the average joe and not speacialized fighters that are doing it for a living where more tools are needed and skill levels are way higher.
[QUOTE=sihing;1125227]Chi sau is not fighting, it is an excersise that improves certain attributes and structures within the body to enable one to fight better. Think of it this way, you have an axe to chop wood with, the axe does the work of actually chopping the wood, but you need a tool to sharpen the axe otherwise the axe will not work as efficiently as it could be. You can’t chop wood with the sharpen tool, but you need it to chop wood effectively with the axe. Get my meaning?
Chi sau is a way to introduce the WC ideas of being more efficient, simple and direct with our movements in a fight, rather than leaning stylized movements that are so unnatural that they would never work in a fight. You don’t fight using WC, rather you train in the system so that you can move/fight more effectively in fight.
This took me a long time to realize and it’s a different way of thinking regarding fight training. It’s more so for the average joe and not speacialized fighters that are doing it for a living where more tools are needed and skill levels are way higher.
James[/QUOTE]
Interesting assessment. I happen to agree that is if we’re talking about the same thing. This is what I hear you saying. Do chi sao, forms, weapons training…and not worry what it looks like. Don’t worry if you don’t use wu sao, tan, fool, bong…and just kick butt?
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125200]Chi Sao only works when you do it with people that know how to chi sao. If you try to chi sao with people who don’t chi sao or don’t do martial arts it turns badly for the one trying to chi Sao.
There are rules involved and wc people learn a stylized way of dealing with force. These stylized ways don’t work well against someone who doesn’t know the rules.
Therefore I have decided that the skills and sensitivity learned in chi sao don’t transfer well because of the stylized platform they are drilled on. I’m nOt saying they can’t be transferred to sparring or other arts but it is hard to unless drilled in a more live way.
For example, there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn’t work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.[/QUOTE]
I’ll try to word this one better so I don’t get jumped all over again…
For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all “Chi Sao” starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it’s English translation. At very high level skill and ultimately the end goal of Chi Sao is what is called the glass technique. It’s where as if the opponent is looking through a piece of glass, feels no contact on his arms and only feels punches to his body. The practitioner essentially can sense the opponents movement so well that he sees the open lines without having to create them. There’s a saying within our system that if a bullet travels a mile, as long as you’re a mile and an inch away you’re fine. Now whether people want to believe me or not, Chi Sao can, when done right, develop your awareness of both intent and distance of an opponent. Fong Sifu has talked about how touch isn’t necessary to “feel” the opponents intention, but it is through touch that we develop the awareness. Chi Sao is not how one fights, but good Chi Sao shows you the way on how to fight…
[QUOTE=WC1277;1125230]I’ll try to word this one better so I don’t get jumped all over again…
For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all “Chi Sao” starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it’s English translation.
Hi WC1277
Agree completely!!!Some folks here jump on a word here and there too soon. Attempts at ego dtiven one up manship and sarcasm in discourse often happens on this chat list Without a different type of moderation discussions are not likely to get better..Some folks are stuck in what they do and really don’t know how to compare pov’s systematically.A thick skin is good to have here. There is no such thing as a wing chun community. Sake is better for warm fuzzy feelings.
Chi sao short of actual fighting is the master lab of wing chun. It is not a mechanical drill though beginners have to understand how to change from bong to fok to tan Gradually every major body weapon gets involved and has to be adjusted for use.Depending on the evolution of skills all the major concepts of different kinds of power, of positioning, of distancing, of targeting,different kinds of timing, kicking, various kinds of footwork, of closing in, moving out if needed, separating, cutting off people at angles. ambidexterity, flow, conditioning with additional supplementary conditioning work for fighting,using all parts of the body at one time or another, very very close quarters work, balanced good structure all the way up and down and sideways
and there is much more and I am not just talking theory.
Si hings and sidais I know would say the same because many have empirically tested what I am talking about. No need to be afraid of resisting opponents.
I am used to gloves and kicking and working wih grapplers-have done those things in varying degrees before wing chun… wing chun has been a different world … chi sao making things so much easier.
Ip man had many short termers and partimers which resulted in a very uneven legacy..but good Ip man wing chun is priiceless and he did lots of chi sao.
I stay on this list-- because occasionally I get a new insight or a reinforcement of validity, or for being watchful on reputations and partly for laughs.
Gresham’s law- bad money can drives out the good- too commonly is the case.if you are not careful.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1125256][QUOTE=WC1277;1125230]I’ll try to word this one better so I don’t get jumped all over again…
For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all “Chi Sao” starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it’s English translation.
Hi WC1277
Agree completely!!!Some folks here jump on a word here and there too soon. Attempts at ego dtiven one up manship and sarcasm in discourse often happens on this chat list Without a different type of moderation discussions are not likely to get better..Some folks are stuck in what they do and really don’t know how to compare pov’s systematically.A thick skin is good to have here. There is no such thing as a wing chun community. Sake is better for warm fuzzy feelings.
Chi sao short of actual fighting is the master lab of wing chun. It is not a mechanical drill though beginners have to understand how to change from bong to fok to tan Gradually every major body weapon gets involved and has to be adjusted for use.Depending on the evolution of skills all the major concepts of different kinds of power, of positioning, of distancing, of targeting,different kinds of timing, kicking, various kinds of footwork, of closing in, moving out if needed, separating, cutting off people at angles. ambidexterity, flow, conditioning with additional supplementary conditioning work for fighting,using all parts of the body at one time or another, very very close quarters work, balanced good structure all the way up and down and sideways
and there is much more and I am not just talking theory.
Si hings and sidais I know would say the same because many have empirically tested what I am talking about. No need to be afraid of resisting opponents.
I am used to gloves and kicking and working wih grapplers-have done those things in varying degrees before wing chun… wing chun has been a different world … chi sao making things so much easier.
Ip man had many short termers and partimers which resulted in a very uneven legacy..but good Ip man wing chun is priiceless and he did lots of chi sao.
I stay on this list-- because occasionally I get a new insight or a reinforcement of validity, or for being watchful on reputations and partly for laughs.
Gresham’s law- bad money can drives out the good- too commonly is the case.if you are not careful.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
No. Sparring is the master lab of wc training. Chi sao is the training wheels.
No. Sparring is the master lab of wc training. Chi sao is the training wheels.[/QUOTE]
Nice rhetoric but..
I sincerely dont think so but tou are entitled to your opinion. Without bouncing around I can use many wc moves with gloves-but wing chun attacks without gloves are so much more versatile.
Plus empty handed gor sao is form of sparring.
BTW- Curious-what kind of wing chun did you learn and from where or whom?
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1125256][QUOTE=WC1277;1125230]I’ll try to word this one better so I don’t get jumped all over again…
For us, and I really wish joy would back me up every once in a while, Chi Sao is a tool to train the principles of the system. Not all “Chi Sao” starts off connected. In fact, one could say that the concept of sticking is taken too literal in it’s English translation.
Hi WC1277
Agree completely!!!Some folks here jump on a word here and there too soon. Attempts at ego dtiven one up manship and sarcasm in discourse often happens on this chat list Without a different type of moderation discussions are not likely to get better..Some folks are stuck in what they do and really don’t know how to compare pov’s systematically.A thick skin is good to have here. There is no such thing as a wing chun community. Sake is better for warm fuzzy feelings.
Chi sao short of actual fighting is the master lab of wing chun. It is not a mechanical drill though beginners have to understand how to change from bong to fok to tan Gradually every major body weapon gets involved and has to be adjusted for use.Depending on the evolution of skills all the major concepts of different kinds of power, of positioning, of distancing, of targeting,different kinds of timing, kicking, various kinds of footwork, of closing in, moving out if needed, separating, cutting off people at angles. ambidexterity, flow, conditioning with additional supplementary conditioning work for fighting,using all parts of the body at one time or another, very very close quarters work, balanced good structure all the way up and down and sideways
and there is much more and I am not just talking theory.
Si hings and sidais I know would say the same because many have empirically tested what I am talking about. No need to be afraid of resisting opponents.
I am used to gloves and kicking and working wih grapplers-have done those things in varying degrees before wing chun… wing chun has been a different world … chi sao making things so much easier.
Ip man had many short termers and partimers which resulted in a very uneven legacy..but good Ip man wing chun is priiceless and he did lots of chi sao.
I stay on this list-- because occasionally I get a new insight or a reinforcement of validity, or for being watchful on reputations and partly for laughs.
Gresham’s law- bad money can drives out the good- too commonly is the case.if you are not careful.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
Good post Joy! And Thanks! I understand your reasoning for when you post and when you don’t and I might follow suit here. My problem is I have too much angst!!! :eek:
[QUOTE=sihing;1125227]Chi sau is not fighting, it is an excersise that improves certain attributes and structures within the body to enable one to fight better. Think of it this way, you have an axe to chop wood with, the axe does the work of actually chopping the wood, but you need a tool to sharpen the axe otherwise the axe will not work as efficiently as it could be. You can’t chop wood with the sharpen tool, but you need it to chop wood effectively with the axe. Get my meaning?
[/QUOTE]
Hey James, good post - It makes clear that our two families have fundamentally different approaches to the thing with the same name.
I have seen Chi Sao used the way you describe to good effect in YM Wing Chun training (which I assume most folks here do).
Good post Joy! And Thanks! I understand your reasoning for when you post and when you don’t and I might follow suit here. My problem is I have too much angst!!! :eek:[/QUOTE]
No problem. It’s the Mad Hatter’s tea party and Alice in Wonderland and everyone has an opinion.
But then listening is an art in itself.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125223]If the specific skills such as threading only work when the other guy is holding his arm out, like in chi sao, does that mean chi sao type drills don’t need to be trained at all?[/QUOTE]
If you ever in NYC stop in, its easier to show and tell, than write and not show at all.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125200]there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn’t work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.[/QUOTE]
It’s easier to build a bridge when you attack. When your opponent blocks your punch, you build your bridge, destroy your bridge, cross your bridge, and do your thing.
No problem. It’s the Mad Hatter’s tea party and Alice in Wonderland and everyone has an opinion.
But then listening is an art in itself.
joy[/QUOTE]
It seems you are one of the ones that don’t listen well. Just saying. It’s easy to badmoutj everyone else’s opinion except yours. How often do you actually consider a different opinion other than your own? You’re as close-minded as everyone you point the finger at.
I understand your reasoning for when you post and when you don’t and I might follow suit here. My problem is I have too much angst!!! :eek: