Chi sao only works when...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125200]Chi Sao only works when you do it with people that know how to chi sao. If you try to chi sao with people who don’t chi sao or don’t do martial arts it turns badly for the one trying to chi Sao.

There are rules involved and wc people learn a stylized way of dealing with force. These stylized ways don’t work well against someone who doesn’t know the rules.

Therefore I have decided that the skills and sensitivity learned in chi sao don’t transfer well because of the stylized platform they are drilled on. I’m nOt saying they can’t be transferred to sparring or other arts but it is hard to unless drilled in a more live way.

For example, there is the threading concept where a punch comes in and you go under his bridge leading you to his outside gate. This only works if your opponent leaves his arms out like in chi sao. It doesn’t work when your opponent keeps bringing his bridge back to his chest and then to strike again constantly.[/QUOTE]

Chi Sao is the Wing Chun Plat form,so if someone does not want to work within that platform then dont waste your time trying to.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125223]If the specific skills such as threading only work when the other guy is holding his arm out, like in chi sao, does that mean chi sao type drills don’t need to be trained at all?[/QUOTE]

Chi-sao is misunderstood, it is simply a method of using each others striking arms to try and exchange force through each others forearms to each others body.
We develop strong striking connections to our stance , hips, core, shoulders, elbows, wrists…each arm develops force forwards without retraction prior to delivery.
Each arm develops the ability to stab into a position like a double edged sword.

We give either edge of this sword a name for training it tan edge/ jum edge.
Each arm has the ability to be this sword, depending what side the arm is leading and what gate the opponent is moving into , relative to the center line, gives a direction to nearest weapon to nearest target.

Now if you stab something or drill or hammer a nail , if the alignment of forces arent right you dont maximize your force potential , you bend the nail, break the knife , etc…
If you align this section of force potential with the elbow ,gradually, dan chi-sao…then add each arm stabbing and wielding a shield [bong] lok sao, then stepping and wielding the shield/parry/bong etc…with stabbing..seung ma toi ma stepping stabbing …then angling off a charging stabbing attack, while stabbing back with the right edge of your own sword, in a strong stance to give force to the strike, balanced, not over turning to be stabbed yourself…etc.

you see a progressive idea, based on simple stab and kill while simultaneously defending too. Either with shield of bong, pak, jut, lop…or with the simple edge of the leading sword stab…tan or jum.

Many miss the basic stabbing ability of the arms and instead teach the sword not to stab, but to engage the other sword, or over shield/bong/pak, etc.., over control the sword with sword.This over controlling is becasue they are learning to duel sword to sword from the beginning. They stay in dan chi distances that are redundant to impact/stabbing/force exchanges and cant really reach properly, so they compensate by using ths tip of the sword moving off line, losing alignment…
This is due to the swords NOT exchanging stabbing force with a mutual goal, but now it is a way of dueling, competing , and the stabbing development is lost to sword chasing, feeling the swords, losing the body weight , and idea altogether. This is commonplace now.

In fighting we are able to simply face and stab with force to penetrate , not touch air, not so close we cant generate required hammer to nail head distance …

follow ?

we see the opponent also trying to make distances to use force and stab us too, the direction of their sword and body momentum relative to our centerline and gates, which sword is leading to flank etc…it gets complicated to say all at once without doing it, but easy when given systematic stages to work on and chain them together…

So you can see that you wont stab in a fight as you train to stab alternatively in a drill using each hand in rotation while standing in a basic stance.

Now when we fight we use one leading sword and one rear , man sao/wu sao.

If the opponent parries the leading stab , we simply stab straight in with the rear one .
If they parry onto our line of attack we use the leading sword to clear a path for the rear.

this is done also in chi-sao, so the parries and line decisions are mindless, and you simply let the opponent show you the next cut.

Stabbing a guy who gives you a clear opening ? or play sword games ?

the chi-sao also takes ona role play for mutual benefit, so the face off is equal in the drill each arm capable of stepping and stabbing , so we become natural at reacting to the right positions, balanced with force , timing, strike etc…then start again and randomly do something from the starting point of chi-sao drills. Stepping in, angling off side…check stances correct ones mistakes…

Later we add drills from attacking stances and leading arms, no rolling of chi-sao or attempts to , just quick entry to stab , parry or not , repeat :smiley: perfect …

Sensitivity is a BY-PRODUCT of chi-sao, not the goal.

You can also see that swords moving like windshield wipers in defense offer openings to stabbers. Why we dont use lateral blocking actions that cross over our own centerlines…we know whats coming at us in the same mistake :smiley:
center to center sword stab to sword stab , you overturn a little too much …:slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1125388]Chi Sao is the Wing Chun Plat form,so if someone does not want to work within that platform then dont waste your time trying to.[/QUOTE]

Chi sao is only one platform. Sparring is another. Do you try your skills in the sparring platform as well? How often?

Sparring is defined here ad having atleast a helmet, gloves, mouth piece, cup. You start from a distance apart and not connected. People become very unpredictable at this range as opposed to the arm touching range.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125816]Chi sao is only one platform. Sparring is another. Do you try your skills in the sparring platform as well? How often?

Sparring is defined here ad having atleast a helmet, gloves, mouth piece, cup. You start from a distance apart and not connected. People become very unpredictable at this range as opposed to the arm touching range.[/QUOTE]

Sure, fighting is another one. Chi Sao are only testing grounds. Anything I can do in chi sao I can do for real. And sparring is not for real.

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[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1125819]Sure, fighting is another one. Chi Sao are only testing grounds. Anything I can do in chi sao I can do for real. And sparring is not for real.[/QUOTE]

And yet Sparring is more real than chi sao.

Think about this. If you trained with a muaythai person in the chi Sao format who do you think would have the advantage? The muay thai person would because he would be kicking and striking with elbows, knees, and fists from the chi sao range. At that close range his striking power would be more devastating than your vertical punch.

So you want to avoid the sparring range(we’ll call it kickboxing range) which is fine. But bring people into the chi sao range and let then play their game: The non-sticking striking with full power game.

Food for thought.

I’m an advocate of bringing wing chun into more of a fighting system instead of a series of flowing drills that only have some liveness. That’s where I’m at in my training. I find it funny that Joy would say that I’m turning away from wing chun when I’m actually trying to utilize it’s skills in a more realistic way.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125845]And yet Sparring is more real than chi sao.

Think about this. If you trained with a muaythai person in the chi Sao format who do you think would have the advantage? The muay thai person would because he would be kicking and striking with elbows, knees, and fists from the chi sao range. At that close range his striking power would be more devastating than your vertical punch.

So you want to avoid the sparring range(we’ll call it kickboxing range) which is fine. But bring people into the chi sao range and let then play their game: The non-sticking striking with full power game.

Food for thought.

I’m an advocate of bringing wing chun into more of a fighting system instead of a series of flowing drills that only have some liveness. That’s where I’m at in my training. I find it funny that Joy would say that I’m turning away from wing chun when I’m actually trying to utilize it’s skills in a more realistic way.[/QUOTE]

No, you just misunderstand Chi Sao, most likely to no fault of your own…

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[QUOTE=WC1277;1125852]No, you just misunderstand Chi Sao, most likely to no fault of your own…[/QUOTE]

Or likely you misunderstand chi sao which explains why you attach such importance to it…through no fault of your own.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHv_O2x_YYU&NR=1

Appropriate for the discussion I think?

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Chi sao is a developmental drill not fighting however doesn’t chi aso teach you if somebody disengages to the strike? so if they pull the bridge back by pulling the punch back you should then strike IMO…

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Chi sao doesn’t work well for internet sparring.

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[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1125845]And yet Sparring is more real than chi sao.

Think about this. If you trained with a muaythai person in the chi Sao format who do you think would have the advantage? The muay thai person would because he would be kicking and striking with elbows, knees, and fists from the chi sao range. At that close range his striking power would be more devastating than your vertical punch.

So you want to avoid the sparring range(we’ll call it kickboxing range) which is fine. But bring people into the chi sao range and let then play their game: The non-sticking striking with full power game.

Food for thought.

I’m an advocate of bringing wing chun into more of a fighting system instead of a series of flowing drills that only have some liveness. That’s where I’m at in my training. I find it funny that Joy would say that I’m turning away from wing chun when I’m actually trying to utilize it’s skills in a more realistic way.[/QUOTE]

In Chi Sao range I use all the same weapons the M.T. guys uses you just described in your post. I don’t avoid the sparring range. My range is close range.

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Am I the only one that has used Chi Sao skills not to hit someone in a real life scenario?? Can’t be. I wish my Sidai still posted on here. I know of a couple times his Chi Sao skills stopped things from going further. Two times in a pool hall and once I think it was at an after hours club.

For me there have been two recent times I can recall where Chi Sao definitely worked to avoid getting further into confrontations.

It’s pretty cool to see some shrivel up after thinking they were going to tear your face off.

Anyways is this use of Chi Sao applicable to this thread??:confused:

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1126043]Chi sao doesn’t work well for internet sparring.[/QUOTE]

Agree, I deleted a post I made trying to make sense of it. Without the physical ‘hands on’ accompanying the explanations it aint happening here on a forum.

There are too many associative pitfalls when using the same terms for differing conceptual usage…For example I say ‘tan sao’ in chi sao context and ten guys reading think ten ways, me included :smiley:

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1126043]Chi sao doesn’t work well for internet sparring.[/QUOTE]

Which is ironic, given that wing chun is the internet sparring style of choice!:smiley:

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1126060]Without the physical ‘hands on’ accompanying the explanations it aint happening here on a forum. [/QUOTE]

QFE! Now we’er talking!

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I still don’t understand why WC guys like to argue among themselves. :confused: Right or wrong, I want to support my own brothers 100% and fight against none family members. As long as you train TCMA, you are one of us. That’s just very simple logic IMO.

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[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1126081]I still don’t understand why WC guys like to argue among themselves. :confused: Right or wrong, I want to support my own brothers 100% and fight against none family members. As long as you train TCMA, you are one of us. That’s just very simple logic IMO.[/QUOTE]

There are vocal groups in Wing Chun that claim authority based on pseudo science, so called unbroken lineages, and number of Martial Arts magazine articles. Until all people involved in WC are strictly performance oriented, these arguments will occur.

You say that you support your brother, but you haven’t been introduced to The Tiger Style Kid. http://www.youtube.com/user/tigerstylekid

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1126088]There are vocal groups in Wing Chun that claim authority based on pseudo science, so called unbroken lineages, and number of Martial Arts magazine articles. Until all people involved in WC are strictly performance oriented, these arguments will occur.

You say that you support your brother, but you haven’t been introduced to The Tiger Style Kid. http://www.youtube.com/user/tigerstylekid[/QUOTE]

There are the Qi based authorities who will display ridiculous shows and have no scientific base to stand on.
Then there are the guys who go out and see for themselves the effects of a punch. They take this practical experience and develop on the reality to perfect the alignment, timing, balance and ways to incorporate tactical ideas too. Then they go out and fight some more…take that experience[experiment] and take it apart in analysis with others to improve on the reality.
Falsifiability is moot when a guy is lying unconscious at ones feet from your realtively tiny fist touching their face for a split second…

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[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1126088]You say that you support your brother, but you haven’t been introduced to The Tiger Style Kid. http://www.youtube.com/user/tigerstylekid[/QUOTE]
We can all have room to improve. When the time come, we can all become “perfect”. As long as my brothers are doing the same thing that I’m doing, I will never discourage my brothers in any way. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1126092]There are the Qi based authorities who will display ridiculous shows and have no scientific base to stand on.[/QUOTE]
Until someday someone use his Qi to beat me up, I’ll have problem with “Qi based authorities” too.

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I have a feeling that this Ip Man Wing Chun thing has pretty much trashed a decent martial art. Chi sao fighting and such. When you hear of full contact Wing Chun it is usually chi sao compitition. Che sao is something that 2, that’s 2, wing chun trainees do in order to practice their hand techniques. They really don’t even have to do it, but it helps. Today so many people think if is actually fighting. Chi sao is a two man form sort of, where siu lim is a one man form. It teaches. And unless you intend to fight nothing but other wing chun men, you can or should quickly get away from it and move on.
The average man you will fight is going to take a boxing stance and move about, throwing punches and using his shoulder and hands to block punches. Try chi sao’ing that. If you want to spar, spar. Don’t play with this chi sao thing. You don’t have to kill one another. In fact, you don’t have to hit one another hard at all. Sparring is nothing more than play fighting. It allows you to use skills you learn while doing such drills as chi sao or whatever.