[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1126103]I have a feeling that this Ip Man Wing Chun thing has pretty much trashed a decent martial art. [/QUOTE]
I have often thought the same thing. However, he has trained a few good martial artists. I think that he let some junk pass in the interest of money.
In our line of Kulo WC we don’t pay much emphasis on the Tanbongfok Chi Sau. We focus more on a number of partner practice exercises that develops the right habits and reflexes.
In a real fight, ideology goes out the window. Everyone has a plan until you get hit. The only thing that matters are habits, reflexes, body condition and determination.
[QUOTE=mjw;1126035]Chi sao is a developmental drill not fighting however doesn’t chi aso teach you if somebody disengages to the strike? so if they pull the bridge back by pulling the punch back you should then strike IMO…[/QUOTE]That is the kuen kuit: “Lat sau jik chung” (on loss of contact strike ahead).
[QUOTE=CFT;1126133]That is the kuen kuit: “Lat sau jik chung” (on loss of contact strike ahead).[/QUOTE]
LSJC…another concept not fully understood by a lot of WC practitioners. LSJC doesn’t just relate to loss of contact. Thats only the tip of the iceberg! 
GH
C’mon then G. You know you want to!
[QUOTE=CFT;1126148]C’mon then G. You know you want to![/QUOTE]
Want to what? 
GH
Reveal the rest of the iceberg.
[QUOTE=CFT;1126153]Reveal the rest of the iceberg.[/QUOTE]
Well you know what happened to the Titanic mate so its too risky! 
GH
The Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Cheung the basis of the fighting idea of VT
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1126156]The Loi Lau Hoi Sung, Lat Sau Jik Cheung the basis of the fighting idea of VT[/QUOTE]
…intercept your opponets attacks with your own, cut his way when he moves, no obsticles then thrust forward without hesitation. The problem with trying to translate Cantonese word for word restricts the ability to translate the proper ideas behind them. The way you think is important not hanging off every word because it can be roughly translated into English!
GH
Hey I like that description of LLHS/LSJC. Not a literal translation but I like the ideas embodied in that.
[QUOTE=CFT;1126162]Hey I like that description of LLHS/LSJC. Not a literal translation but I like the ideas embodied in that.[/QUOTE]
Making literal translations is wrong Chee. I have talked to my Teacher about this and he exoplained the problem. This was also a problem when WSL was trying to teach Westeners according to him. How do explain certain idea to a room full of people from all different backgrounds and cultures. PB told that WSL thought this was a problem. I made the same mistake myself.
We can use the “loss of contact” idea to explain that should our attack meet obsticles the punch should be trained to find a clear path forward and not retract but LSJC come from the whole body not just the arm.
the way some people explain it by grabbing somebodies arm, letting them apply pressure to it and releasing it when contact is broken is a very basic way of explaning it to a beginner. Over time LSJC becomes part of everything.
GH
[QUOTE=Graham H;1126165]Making literal translations is wrong Chee.[/QUOTE]I appreciate that. I wasn’t expressing myself clearly. The kuen kuit themselves don’t really have meaning IMO. They’re just catchphrases. You need to know the detail behind them.
We can use the “loss of contact” idea to explain that should our attack meet obsticles the punch should be trained to find a clear path forward and not retract but LSJC come from the whole body not just the arm.
the way some people explain it by grabbing somebodies arm, letting them apply pressure to it and releasing it when contact is broken is a very basic way of explaning it to a beginner. Over time LSJC becomes part of everything.
Good point about non retraction and whole body movement.
[QUOTE=CFT;1126166]I appreciate that. I wasn’t expressing myself clearly. The kuen kuit themselves don’t really have meaning IMO. They’re just catchphrases. You need to know the detail behind them.
Good point about non retraction and whole body movement.[/QUOTE]
Correct! The Kuen Kuit doesn’t really have a great deal of meaning. They are just maxims that have been coined through the years. We already know how misinterpreted Wing Chun can be and also the small amount of people that were actually taught anything of any real substance by Yip Man so these sayings are just an enjoyable read if you are into that sort of thing. I used to hang off every word as well. I even started to learn Cantonese as I thought I would make better sense of it but I found out that wasn’t the correct way. Before that I would have disagreed with myself!!
Ving Tsun is conceptual. It’s not Karate where every word is a literal translation. How you think and behave is important and this can’t be conveyed through the internet, books or DVD’s.
…anyway back to the bickering!! :D:D
[QUOTE=Graham H;1126165]Making literal translations is wrong Chee. I have talked to my Teacher about this and he exoplained the problem. This was also a problem when WSL was trying to teach Westeners according to him. How do explain certain idea to a room full of people from all different backgrounds and cultures. PB told that WSL thought this was a problem. I made the same mistake myself.
We can use the “loss of contact” idea to explain that should our attack meet obsticles the punch should be trained to find a clear path forward and not retract but LSJC come from the whole body not just the arm.
the way some people explain it by grabbing somebodies arm, letting them apply pressure to it and releasing it when contact is broken is a very basic way of explaning it to a beginner. Over time LSJC becomes part of everything.
GH[/QUOTE]
@ chee , the ‘catch phrases’ are so we can remember them easily, but the translations are not literal as you say.
The drills I now do from WSL/PB incorporate this concept. I would never have stepped away from a fellow student in chi-sao with my old thinking of sticking feeling mindset, but for this concept.
You can see the dismay in guys trained in sticking to arms as you do this the first time invariably nobody keeps attacking , its like stand and roll and play the game or nothing.
Then the fun begins with guys trying to attack with a sticking arm mentality to a guy who isnt going to stick to their arms :D:D:D:D but just hits the free space as it over chases, too much momentum to stop their movement…you open up a new world of thinking .