Any two man drill can be considered as chi sao. And I have noticed that some people go way to far with it. It becomes Wing Chun to them. Crossing arms with me will get you hit, no matter how much chi sao you do. Because I don’t chi sao fair. I have done my share of chi sao, but I was warned very early on that it is a drill and not to let it take on a greater roll. Just rolling and rolling and then jumping with a surprise attack is not real chi sao either. In most cases it is taken advantage of by the person teaching. Rolling and rolling sets a pattern that anyone can use to breach a defense. If one wants to train take and give he can do it with a lot of different drills, but it is difficult to do without a partner that is willing to work with you.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1001288]For those that use chi sao as an indespensible tool,it isn’t possible to progress in WC without it.
For those that DON’T use it that way, or at all, yes, it is possible to progress in WC without it.[/QUOTE]I think in each case, that what is seen as “progress” would be quite different. Can you progress without chi sao? For me, chi sao is a MUST have, but that’s just my personal point of view.
I don’t believe I could have said it much better myself. Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1001180]What I am wanting out of my training is to know that if anything happens around me, I can defend myself and my friends, if need be![/QUOTE]Don’t you find it a tad exhausting to worry about whether you can be a superhero?
Chi sao is WCK with the training wheels on.
WCK’s method is attached fighting, to control the opponent while striking him, and chi sao (and the other WCK drills/exercises) permit us to learn some of the skills, movements, actions, elements, tactics, etc. associated with attached fighting. In other words, it is a way to learn a skill set.
The problem with chi sao is that it is “with the training wheels on” – and doesn’t reflect what attached fighting will really be like, so that you can’t develop those attached fighting aspects to any significant degree.
Can you learn these aspects without chi sao? Sure. You could learn them directly in a sparring platform. Just like you could learn to ride a bicycle without resorting to training wheels.
The problem with chi sao is the problem will all unrealistic drills/exercises: by its very nature, you are practicing doing things wrong.
Matrix sez
Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
True IMO.
joy chaudhuri
I think in each case, that what is seen as “progress” would be quite different. Can you progress without chi sao? For me, chi sao is a MUST have, but that’s just my personal point of view.
That’s just it, if YOU see chi sao is indispensable then it truly is.
Training that revolves around chi sao MUST make chi sao effective or the system can’t be.
It is when chi sao “breaks down” that a system the is based around it, falls apart too.
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1001857]Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
True IMO.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
I concur with Joy.
I studied a couple different systems of kung fu before having learned some wing chun from a friend. None of the fighting methods he showed me IMO required chi sao. I always thought you could do without.
Having said that, I do believed it would make for a valuable tool for refinement when the student reached more advanced levels.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1001867]That’s just it, if YOU see chi sao is indispensable then it truly is.[/QUOTE]That’s what I’m saying. I don’t pretend to have a lock on the truth. I think the original post is asking for an opinion. I am simply stating mine.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1001867]Training that revolves around chi sao MUST make chi sao effective or the system can’t be.[/QUOTE]Of course. Replace “chi sao” with any other training method you have in mind and I would say this must be the case. Any training method that is integral to the system MUST be effective or the sytem can’t be. It’s circular logic.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1001867]It is when chi sao “breaks down” that a system the is based around it, falls apart too.[/QUOTE]Same here too. I just want to add that the problem starts when chi sao is seen as a means and end unto itself. In other words, the exercise becomes the end game. The end game is skill development, not to become good at chi sao. I think it’s a critical and subtle distinction. But then again, it’s only an opinion.
[QUOTE=Matrix;1001904]The end game is skill development, not to become good at chi sao. I think it’s a critical and subtle distinction. But then again, it’s only an opinion.
[/QUOTE]
Very true.. This is seen where folks will “find things” or “methods” that allow them to “win” in ChiSao, but actually has little or no connection to the skills we are trying to build in ChiSao.. They often will not see the difference between the two and go on their merry way “winning” in ChiSao. As a result they begin to remove any useful training elements and instead take advantage of the limits within an artificial construct–a drill.
The problem isn’t ChiSao it’s how ChiSao is used.
Choppy chop chop anyone? 
not that bruce lee was like king of wing chun or anything ..but didn’t he tell WSL that “chi sao is out”?
[QUOTE=tigershorty;1001932]not that bruce lee was like king of wing chun or anything ..but didn’t he tell WSL that “chi sao is out”?[/QUOTE]
What does that even mean?
As far as I know when the $hit hit the fan, Bruce relied on his WCK more than anything else. He also maintained various WCK training elements including ChiSao even into his JKD stage.. Bruce in fact did a ChiSao demo at the Nationals in California where he showcased his new JKD.
i’m not sure what it meant, i was putting it out there in case anyone wanted to clarify. but i’ve been told by a few wing chun people he said that and i’m sure there was a reason why he did. that’s all.
maybe it was a marketing thing remark or he thought westerners didn’t relate to it, not sure.
no one is saying he didn’t rely on wing chun or whatever assumptions you’re making
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1001857]Chi sao is integral to the art. Take it away and you have something else. Call it what you want.
True IMO.
joy chaudhuri[/QUOTE]
It’s not the drill/exercise itself but what the drill/exercise teaches you that is integral to the art.
The problems with all forms of unrealistic training (other than for conditioning) – that is training not done under fighting conditions – is that you can’t help but practice the actions, movements, skills, etc. wrongly (not how you will perform them under fighting conditions). Thus, at best they are a waste of good training time and at worst counter-productive (actually making you worse).
Training wheels on your bike may allow you learn some rudiments of riding, but it isn’t riding the bike.
[QUOTE=Shaolinstudent;1000714]Is it possible to adavance in Wing Chun without having trained in chi sao. I know that is is a preset form of sparing to practice techniques learned in forms, but can u advance without it. If anyone can recommend good teachers in Northern Ohio I would be greatly appreciated. :-)[/QUOTE]
No, force sensitivity is important in close range combat.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1001952]It’s not the drill/exercise itself but what the drill/exercise teaches you that is integral to the art.
The problems with all forms of unrealistic training (other than for conditioning) – that is training not done under fighting conditions – is that you can’t help but practice the actions, movements, skills, etc. wrongly (not how you will perform them under fighting conditions). Thus, at best they are a waste of good training time and at worst counter-productive (actually making you worse).
Training wheels on your bike may allow you learn some rudiments of riding, but it isn’t riding the bike.[/QUOTE]
I agree that its not the “drill/exercise” itself but what what it teaches you, but the question seems to be can you develop “sensitivity” - or much broader, what wing chun seeks to teach - without doing a sensitivity/control drill? How do you develop contact reflexes without doing any sort of contact reflex training?
Chi Sau should be a means to an end, not the end itself…I think with that in mind for training, the unique method of chi sau develops the sensitivity (as well as other traits useful for fighting) that is pretty unique to Wing Chun’s fighting concepts and method. I still maintain that without this training you are not doing wing chun…“stick to what comes, follow what leaves, hands free strike direct” is the principle…how do you do this principle if you don’t understand the recieving and the sticking?
I personally think that the “skill” of wing chun is best understood through the chi sau training, otherwise you are left with simply a series of set techniques (this is presupposing that one trains chi sau with no set techniques but seeks to take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself through the openings of the opponent’s defenses and not as set techniques - which, in my opinion, is not chi sau). May as well be Krav Maga and for self defense you are left to memorize a series of techniques which you can only hope that in a real situation will be executed exactly as they were in your training or else you are training to be defeated because you have not trained for adaptation.
It is through Chi sau that one learns to flow and adapt to a changing situation and stimuli in the same way that “rolling” in jiu jitsu brings about their skill level to learn to apply the proper techniques for the proper situation. Would you have the skill of Jiu Jitsu without rolling? Probably not…likewise, could you have skill of Wing Chun without Chi Sau.
now, stepping out of bounds a wee bit…I personally think that many who want do not incorporate Chi Sau in their Wing Chun training probably do not understand it and it becomes nothing more than a rote drill (which explains the “set techniques” and “routines” that ends up looking like a 2 man fighting form rather than freely flowing and applying techniques.
my humble opinion again,
Moses
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1001952]It’s not the drill/exercise itself but what the drill/exercise teaches you that is integral to the art.[/QUOTE] Agreed. That’s already been said previously.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1001952]The problems with all forms of unrealistic training (other than for conditioning) – that is training not done under fighting conditions – is that you can’t help but practice the actions, movements, skills, etc. wrongly (not how you will perform them under fighting conditions). Thus, at best they are a waste of good training time and at worst counter-productive (actually making you worse).[/QUOTE]Why is conditioning an exception? Can’t you get conditioning under fighting conditions too?
Of course sparring is also unrealistic training, since it is not a “real fight” or are there degrees of realism?
[QUOTE=YungChun;1001912]As a result they begin to remove any useful training elements and instead take advantage of the limits within an artificial construct–a drill.
The problem isn’t ChiSao it’s how ChiSao is used.
Choppy chop chop anyone? :p[/QUOTE] Yes, that’s it. Someone who allows themselves to experience the chi sao, rather than trying to win some game may in fact be the “winner” in the sense that they have learned something in the process.
Sorry, no choppy chop chop here. 
[QUOTE=Matrix;1002074]Agreed. That’s already been said previously.
[/QUOTE]
And your point is?
Why is conditioning an exception? Can’t you get conditioning under fighting conditions too?
Of course you get conditioning by training realistically, but you can also develop your conditioning by not doing realistic training (running, skipping rope, hitting bags or mitts, etc.) whereas you can develop fighting skill except only by realistic training.
Of course sparring is also unrealistic training, since it is not a “real fight” or are there degrees of realism?
There’s no such thing as “real fighting”.
Realistic training develops realistic skills, i.e., skills that work under realistic conditions (in any sort of fighting). At its core, realsitic training involves dealing with a genuinely resisting opponent who is genuinely trying to overcome you (and not behaving in a contrived way).
[QUOTE=RGVWingChun;1002054]I agree that its not the “drill/exercise” itself but what what it teaches you, but the question seems to be can you develop “sensitivity” - or much broader, what wing chun seeks to teach - without doing a sensitivity/control drill? How do you develop contact reflexes without doing any sort of contact reflex training?
[/QUOTE]
Chi sao isn’t to develop “sensitivity” or “contact reflexes” – it is a platform to teach/learn various contact skills. As chi sao is an unrealistic drill, any “reflexes” you develop will be wrong.
Good grapplers develop contact skills without doing chi sao – how? By simply grappling. In other words, by using their contact skills in sparring.
Chi Sau should be a means to an end, not the end itself…I think with that in mind for training, the unique method of chi sau develops the sensitivity (as well as other traits useful for fighting) that is pretty unique to Wing Chun’s fighting concepts and method. I still maintain that without this training you are not doing wing chun…“stick to what comes, follow what leaves, hands free strike direct” is the principle…how do you do this principle if you don’t understand the recieving and the sticking?
Firstly, your translation of the kuit – “stick to what comes, follow what leaves, hands free strike direct”-- is very, very wrong.
Secondly, chi sao does not develop “sensitivity”. Sensitivity is nothing more than timing derived from our tactile sense. But you don’t – and can’t – develop timing from chi sao since your partner isn’t behaving realistically (he is not fighitng you). What chi sao “develops” is a false timing.
Thirdly, all forms of unrealistic training involve (by definition) doing the actions, movements, and skills wrong. So, the more you do unrealsitic training (chi sao), the more you waste your time and the worse you get.
Fourthly, you can learn and/or develop functional skills by simply doing that skill realistically.
I personally think that the “skill” of wing chun is best understood through the chi sau training, otherwise you are left with simply a series of set techniques (this is presupposing that one trains chi sau with no set techniques but seeks to take advantage of every opportunity that presents itself through the openings of the opponent’s defenses and not as set techniques - which, in my opinion, is not chi sau). May as well be Krav Maga and for self defense you are left to memorize a series of techniques which you can only hope that in a real situation will be executed exactly as they were in your training or else you are training to be defeated because you have not trained for adaptation.
If that’s “all you are left with”, then your WCK training was very, very incomplete.
WCK has a method, an organized, strategic approach to fighting (without which you are lost). It has various tools (skills and tactics) to implement that approach. It has a kuit to point you in the right direction. Instead of practicing the skills in an unrealsitic exercise that unrealstically represents contact/attached fighting, just learn and practice in contact/attached fighting.
It is through Chi sau that one learns to flow and adapt to a changing situation and stimuli in the same way that “rolling” in jiu jitsu brings about their skill level to learn to apply the proper techniques for the proper situation. Would you have the skill of Jiu Jitsu without rolling? Probably not…likewise, could you have skill of Wing Chun without Chi Sau.
Go fight some non WCK people while in contact/attached and see if that “looks” like chi sao. It won’t. That tells you that chi sao is unrealistic training. To develop your WCK movement/actions into fighting skills you need to practice using them in contact/attached fighting, i.e., sparring.
That’s what rolling is in BJJ – rolling is using your BJJ skills in sparring.
now, stepping out of bounds a wee bit…I personally think that many who want do not incorporate Chi Sau in their Wing Chun training probably do not understand it and it becomes nothing more than a rote drill (which explains the “set techniques” and “routines” that ends up looking like a 2 man fighting form rather than freely flowing and applying techniques.
my humble opinion again,
Moses
I practiced chi sao for 20 years before I realized that I had been wasting my time for 19 years! Once you can ride the bicycle with the training wheels on, it is time to take the training wheels off (and you don’t even need the training wheels in the first place). Continuing to ride around with the training wheels on won’t make you any better. You get better by just riding the bike.
Nothing is “rote” about sparring (which is riding the bike) – all the functional martial arts use realistic sparring as their core platform for teaching/learning and for training (which is why they are functional).