Disappointed with Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

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I’m thinking you’re about to find out… :cool:

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Hey ncg! Welcome to the KFMforum.:smiley: Why not take what you will from your exposure to Wingchun and move on. If you end up using/practicing those techniques down the road regardless of further MA pursuits, you will have your answer. The individual is unique.

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[QUOTE=Drake;1161295]I’m thinking you’re about to find out… :cool:[/QUOTE]
:eek:
grabs bag of popcorn :wink:

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Disappointed with wing chun

[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294]After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?[/QUOTE]

To me , it all depends on the WC people themselves , how often they spend time training , some of these people who practice WC themselves , really may not have spent time training hard , instead they would rather just go out and enter WC full contact fights with reputable consequences , they end up losing the fight , mainly they did ’ nt realize that they were ’ nt really good enough yet to enter reall wing chun full contact fights .

To me it would be good if the WC practitioner themselves , really spar with students in their own club or school , to test their skills . Then that way they know where they stand in a real WC full contact fight . The WC practitioner should spar from the advance to the highest level in the class . Then that way the WC practitioner themselves can see if they are really improving or not in WC full contact fight .

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[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294]After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?[/QUOTE]

Some on here will tell you the sparring thing, others will tell you their lineage. But the common denominator of 99.9% of Wing Chun practitioners is that they utilize their “technique” in their fighting or sparring. It’s like learning how to shoot a gun but expecting to be a sniper simply by pulling the trigger. WC in actual fighting is meant to be natural to you and to your body type. It’s as simple as this, you train, you get your structure and your target down and then you fight freely. Is it a recognizeable structure? Yes. Does it look even remotely close to any of the forms, chi sau, etc.? No. You attack your opponent along their center. That’s it. No Magic. No fancy moves. Nothing. Sounds pretty un-appealing, doesn’t it? But’s that’s all it is. Centerline attacking and body unity with the three main structures aligned. Hands, Body, Legs. Ever walk into an object straight on like a pole sticking out? That’s good WC structure from the receiving end. The reason you haven’t seen any good WC proof of concept is because WC is one of few arts where the “technique” is literally just the nutrition for your body. It’s the equivalent of learning how to walk. Eventually, you can jump, skip, run, stand on one leg. They all work off the same structure but you can’t do any of those things by simply walking…

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[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294]After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?[/QUOTE]

I blame chi sao.

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[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294] After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. [SIZE=“5”]But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. [/SIZE] What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us? [/QUOTE]

I think you could say that about ANY style or discipline. Such as it is, VERY FEW people are natural born fighters and majority really are not.

… You answer your own question, Perhaps it’s because ony a handful Truely desire to train it for the purpose of fighting.

Weekend warriors and casual students shouldn’t pretend to be fighters and most sensible practicioners know deep down they don’t train hard enough. Though they might think so.

[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294] Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?
[/QUOTE]

Why does WC or any style have to LOOK GOOD to you? Why is that important, because of Martial Arts Movies make it look that way for entertainment?

Can’t you just set a guy up…punch him in the face and say “Job well Done”??? I don’t know about you, but IMO, that would be perfect Wing Chun. :slight_smile:

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Q: how would you defeat a man twice your size
A: pull a gun and shoot him

Thats good wc.
nothing fancy about it

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Q: how would you defeat a man twice your size using WC?
A: Chain punches.

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[QUOTE=jesper;1161323]Q: how would you defeat a man twice your size
A: pull a gun and shoot him

Thats good wc.
nothing fancy about it[/QUOTE]

It’s only good WC if you aim at the center line, and the gun was held by someone from my lineage.

Just kidding.

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But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun.

I don’t really think that’s the case. Have you done a scientific study or something? Other than of Youtube vids and forum posts?

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[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294]After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?[/QUOTE]

Well it depends what youre looking for in a martial art.
If youre after a sound self defense system that will get you out of most trouble, then WC is a good place to start.

If youre after a combat sport effective style there is better options.

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In a fair fight, the determinating factors are:

  1. heart
  2. Physique
  3. Techniques

Techniques comes last. Good WC training should focus on all three, but many only focus on techniques.

15

Interviewer: “How does the training differ from that in other styles?”

WSL: “Other styles would place much emphasis on the training of forms and combination techniques. Ving Tsun ideas will not allow this method of training. Ving Tsun theory will not allow any fixed responses or combinations of techniques. A Ving Tsun fighter will use the theory to find a technique for the given situation. His daily practise will give him the reflex to automatically select the right technique. It should not matter what technique follows the previous one as long as they fit the theory and flow through and not put the fighter in vulnerable or awkward positions. It is therefore important for the student to practice the reflex action so he may apply the theory of Ving Tsun to various situations created by any opponent. Grandmaster Yip Man used to be of the belief, and this is shared by many of his students, that it is your opponent who will teach you how to hit him. I often see students training who are trying to think too much how to hit their opponents. This is wrong because the student has preconceived ideas as to how he should move and how the opponent might move. When fighting, your opponent should also be free to move how he likes, he will not think as you. Hence your movements will be determined by his actions. If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight and show you how to hit him.”

Interviewer: “How did you train mentally and physically for your matches against other styles?”

WSL: “For such a fight, you must train hard to just develop the self confidence to enter such a match. You must, by way of your self confidence, khow that you can win. When Ving Tsun practitioners go to fight and are defeated then the mentality is not to think that the other person is better than himself. Instead he needs to ask himself what were his mistakes to invite the attack. This is the kind of positive thinking which any fighter must possess.”

Interviewer: “You were a strong fighter long before you began Ving Tsun. Did you find the concepts immediately useful or only certain techniques?”

WSL: “I am very small, so large people used to attempt to take advantage of me. I had many opportunities to fight and use Ving Tsun. I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent.”

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1161347]“I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent.”[/QUOTE]

Very nice K, especially the last part.

Train to deal with the opponent, and you will always be a step behind, on the receiving end; make the opponent deal with you, and you will always be a step ahead. Make him play your game.

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1161347]WSL: “I am very small, so large people used to attempt to take advantage of me. I had many opportunities to fight and use Ving Tsun. I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent.”[/QUOTE]

Now Kevin I thought you did not believe in Chi Sau and blame much of the arts decline on Chi Sau :smiley:

Actually, I think Chi Sau is a piece of the pie and an essential piece but not the only piece.

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[QUOTE=Sihing73;1161351]Now Kevin I thought you did not believe in Chi Sau and blame much of the arts decline on Chi Sau :smiley:

Actually, I think Chi Sau is a piece of the pie and an essential piece but not the only piece.[/QUOTE]

Ahhhh, there you go, chi-sao is a highly contentious process…some combat each other within its boundaries, while others drill to attack, counter attack, attack, counter attack ad infinitum …allowing themselves to be guinea pigs in the mutual exchange, ego-less.
Iow deliberately making mistakes for each other, allowing hits for lat sao jik chung so each knows they have a serious punch or an air tag. Creating an atmosphere of development for a common goal so we have reflex responses because our PARTNERS didn’t stick endlessly to our arms in a battle of futility.
IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .
I can list many clips of this, but guys get all huffy and slap challenges ensue…
The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn’t stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in ‘what to do next’ moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc… then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

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[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1161348]Very nice K, especially the last part.

Train to deal with the opponent, and you will always be a step behind, on the receiving end; make the opponent deal with you, and you will always be a step ahead. Make him play your game.[/QUOTE]

Yes, VT is self -correction , according to YM>WSL>PB, meaning we rid ourselves of the multitude of errors or ways we would enter to attack another.
The center-line defines what sides we cut into, interceptions ensue, attacking attacks, cutting into the opponents timing, all this is a skill process we adopt.

Tactically we use chi-sao as role playing too, what side a leading line of force comes from…how we counter attack angle to it or attack it directly, thoughtlessly.

Lap sao drills have a lot of this, but many just get an endless grab n chop idea. Its a more sophisticated method of mutual conditioning at mindless reaction to pak, jut, bong punch, we create the atmosphere of relaxation, reflex speed enhancement. We ‘use’ each other rather than fight each other to just get a hit in and say , “I won, i’m bad” :smiley:

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1161333]I don’t really think that’s the case. Have you done a scientific study or something? Other than of Youtube vids and forum posts?[/QUOTE]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?