[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161371]Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?[/QUOTE]
Is that a horse race? 
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161371]Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?[/QUOTE]
I haven’t looked at it … man. I’m looking at my WC training buds who fought successfully in MMA and kickboxing, and students of other Wing Chun guys like Alan Orr and Phil Redmond who have succeeded as well.
Anyway, if you’re so concerned, what plans do you have to rectify it, other than whingeing on a web forum?
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161371]Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?[/QUOTE]
The ip man cup was mainly sanda fighters, a friend of mine was there.
[QUOTE=nunchuckguy;1161294]After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact “Wing Chun” fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.
Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?
Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?
We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?[/QUOTE]
All these questions you would still ask no matter what style or system of fighting you study. The reason is because you live in an invironment where you do not have to use it regularly, and are not likely to ever have to use it at all. In this case you would question any thing you do. It is not just Wing Chun that would come under question here. You can’t be concerned at what it looks like. The only thing that matters is what kind of results it gives you. Sparring and play fighting is not ever going to give you the answers you seek either. Just study and practice and enjoy what you do in the hopes that if it ever comes down to it you can handle yourself. No matter how bad ass you might be, you can always walk into one and get knocked out. Fighting is not really an exact science yet. That’s why when you fight, you go all out and pull no punches. You should probably stop messing around utube too. You can not really learn anything there by watching random videos.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1161362]IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .
The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn’t stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .
Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.
Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in ‘what to do next’ moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.
We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc… then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.[/QUOTE]
Kevin,
With this I am in total agreement. Chia Sau is not a competition and is not fighting but is or can be a valuable resource for training the contact reflexes. The attributes can carry over into a fight and that is what makes it such a valuable tool. IMHO, when done correctly training will allow one to make solid contact with an oppontnet/partner. There is little benefit with being able to “touch” an opponent/partner if the “touch” is little more than a slap and has no real structure.
The short answer is one of these:
-
The old timers trained much differently than we train today and only passed on the shell of wing chun.
-
The old timers were mainly only good fighters amongst themselves(inbreeding) and never REALLY tested it outside of their comfort zone.
-
If wc training is supposed to be what it is today than it might be that they were just drills that were given to established fighters. These fighters, who were strong as hell already, added wc to their wheel to make them fight a certain way that others weren’t.
People have to constantly bring up the old timers because there is a lack of modern day wc heroes. They just aren’t there. It seems in today’s environment you have to supplement your wc with mma. This might sound like blasphemy to many but the wc fighters of old were already strong skilled fighters before learning wc drills.
When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, gasp fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a “slave” to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only “fights” WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only “fight themselves” is that they only get good at “fighting themselves”.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1161395]When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, gasp fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a “slave” to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only “fights” WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only “fight themselves” is that they only get good at “fighting themselves”.[/QUOTE]
Agree, we should not be fighting ourselves in chi-sao drills, but developing the skills required to attack opponents mindlessly.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1161402]Agree, we should not be fighting ourselves in chi-sao drills, but developing the skills required to attack opponents mindlessly.[/QUOTE]
Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a “WC attack” when what you will probably see is NOT a “WC attack”?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1161403]Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a “WC attack” when what you will probably see is NOT a “WC attack”?[/QUOTE]
This is why I tell people to throw horizontal fists like street fighters, Karateka, Boxers, and other fighters. Why train only against vertical fists when you’re going to encounter more horizontal fists in the real world?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1161403]Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a “WC attack” when what you will probably see is NOT a “WC attack”?[/QUOTE]
We develop skills WITH each other, not to fight each other. Role playing and skill enhancement rather than "what will you do if my tan does this ? Oh, I will control with my fook sao and be unbeatable and defeat you " 
Exactly what are the chances you will fight another VT guy outside Nobody punches with elbows in and down like us.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1161362]
The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn’t stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .
Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.
Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.
Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in ‘what to do next’ moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting. [B]
We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc… then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.[/B][/QUOTE]
This is VERY well stated and I completely agree that herein lies some of the major malfunctions of wing chun practitioners.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1161403]So why train to counter a “WC attack” when what you will probably see is NOT a “WC attack”?[/QUOTE]
This was one of the first questions I asked when I started to learn basic postures. My teachers answer was simple, he never attacked me with a ‘Wing Chun’ attack, as his Sifu never did either! They were both well trained in general Chinese Martial Arts and could ‘mimic’ almost any system quite effectively considering how simple and limited the Wing Chun system can be perceived.
We use Wing Chun peers to train our interactive habits and reflexes, not to fight against. Ever. I consider ‘sparring’ to be another interactive exercise, so yes we would spar but actually ‘fight’ each other?? That just has never felt quite right for me…
Great post there, Kev! Agree 100%
I think there are a lot of factors that can conspire to relegate Wing Chun to the fringe in terms of modern fighting arts. I don’t think there is anything inherently flawed with Wing Chun itself; the principles, techniques and energies are sound.
When ‘applied’ to solve the actual relevant fighting challenges one may face today (reality or sport fighting), its a great operating system. But one has to really FIGHT with it, not use it for pseudo-fighting masterb@tion. Which is tough for people learn how to apply it against real violence, chaos, and people not playing by a stereotypical WC rule set. Most WC people, sifu’s and students, don’t know what the heck a real fight is, whether outside the kwoon in personal defense or in competition. So yeh, I can see how a lot of people who get into this art with great expectations turn sour and disenchanted. A lot of time they’re listening to the wrong people present the wrong approach and answers to the challenges at hand. They don’t really allow their students or themselves to think outside the box and fight creatively with this stuff. Things can only be applied in a certain way to answer the limited questions that they’re asking, not the challenges that the world is presenting. And they become so enamored with certain drills that they think that is sparring or even fighting, while its just an old set of drills that do have value in teaching specific lessons, but are not complete answers. And thus people become completely confused about what a fight is and how to apply their Wing Chun. They get the idea of ranges and applications of various techniques at ranges completely screwed up. And then of course its not going to work against a skilled and conditioned (thats a whole other story about so many WC people not being in actual fighting condition) combatant from another style, whether it be western boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, etc.
I LOVE a lot of the history and technical discussions on energies and such, one of the best things about this forum. But it always derails when people get overly pedantic and use the wrong core mission statements when applying their art. They somehow want the ‘style’ to fight for them, and the history of their ancestors and dogma of their particular branch to win all the battle, interweb or actual… A lot of the beliefs about what will work if just applied a certain way can be astounding. Wing Chun is its own worst enemy. Almost none of the branches get along or provide consistent answers, and way too much of the energy is focused in the rearview mirror.
In order to get by with that approach, the various Wing chun circles get more and more insular, existing successfully in a bubble that has little to do with reality. Only training against other students doing the exact same thing, looking to a pedantic sifu who doesnt know what real power or violence looks or feels like. And on top of that, these cultures usually spend an inordinate amount of time cutting down other styles verbally, like there’s a style wide low self esteem complex.
Its gotten into a viscous cycle. In this state at this point, it only attracts mostly non-athletes. Its run by enablers and protectors who have no intention of going hard against REAL contemporary combat sports practitioners or other skilled and trained stylists. When there are videos, they’re usually against someones 'friend who trained in ‘x’, who is usually terribly inexperienced -or- the WC guys getting killed by someone who is actually decent. And the more the style looks bad and doesnt produce many fighters, the more naturally gifted potential fighters will naturally seek out other training formats. And we’re left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can’t apply their arts during moments of sobriety.
Please pardon my epic post, er, rant… A lot of frustration with the style that I usually don’t talk about.
This could largely be said about the state of Kung Fu in general these days in addition to Wing Chun, although we’ve become the poster child for this. Sad state of affairs, really. No offense meant to you guys with this. I really do enjoy a lot of the discussion threads here. And I believe Wing Chun to likely still salvageable with the right approaches, because there is so much to the art that has value. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what ever the hell its worth. Cheers.
[QUOTE=Mutant;1161455]I think there are a lot of factors that can conspire to relegate Wing Chun to the fringe in terms of modern fighting arts. I don’t think there is anything inherently flawed with Wing Chun itself; the principles, techniques and energies are sound.
When ‘applied’ to solve the actual relevant fighting challenges one may face today (reality or sport fighting), its a great operating system. But one has to really FIGHT with it, not use it for pseudo-fighting masterb@tion. Which is tough for people learn how to apply it against real violence, chaos, and people not playing by a stereotypical WC rule set. Most WC people, sifu’s and students, don’t know what the heck a real fight is, whether outside the kwoon in personal defense or in competition. So yeh, I can see how a lot of people who get into this art with great expectations turn sour and disenchanted. A lot of time they’re listening to the wrong people present the wrong approach and answers to the challenges at hand. They don’t really allow their students or themselves to think outside the box and fight creatively with this stuff. Things can only be applied in a certain way to answer the limited questions that they’re asking, not the challenges that the world is presenting. And they become so enamored with certain drills that they think that is sparring or even fighting, while its just an old set of drills that do have value in teaching specific lessons, but are not complete answers. And thus people become completely confused about what a fight is and how to apply their Wing Chun. They get the idea of ranges and applications of various techniques at ranges completely screwed up. And then of course its not going to work against a skilled and conditioned (thats a whole other story about so many WC people not being in actual fighting condition) combatant from another style, whether it be western boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, etc.
I LOVE a lot of the history and technical discussions on energies and such, one of the best things about this forum. But it always derails when people get overly pedantic and use the wrong core mission statements when applying their art. They somehow want the ‘style’ to fight for them, and the history of their ancestors and dogma of their particular branch to win all the battle, interweb or actual… A lot of the beliefs about what will work if just applied a certain way can be astounding. Wing Chun is its own worst enemy. Almost none of the branches get along or provide consistent answers, and way too much of the energy is focused in the rearview mirror.
In order to get by with that approach, the various Wing chun circles get more and more insular, existing successfully in a bubble that has little to do with reality. Only training against other students doing the exact same thing, looking to a pedantic sifu who doesnt know what real power or violence looks or feels like. And on top of that, these cultures usually spend an inordinate amount of time cutting down other styles verbally, like there’s a style wide low self esteem complex.
Its gotten into a viscous cycle. In this state at this point, it only attracts mostly non-athletes. Its run by enablers and protectors who have no intention of going hard against REAL contemporary combat sports practitioners or other skilled and trained stylists. When there are videos, they’re usually against someones 'friend who trained in ‘x’, who is usually terribly inexperienced -or- the WC guys getting killed by someone who is actually decent. And the more the style looks bad and doesnt produce many fighters, the more naturally gifted potential fighters will naturally seek out other training formats. And we’re left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can’t apply their arts during moments of sobriety.[/QUOTE]
Excellent post
Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.
If someone is dis-satisfied with their wing chun- I am not- makes sense for them to do something else.
joy chaudhuri
Excellent posts by Mutant and Joy.
Wing chun is not a community
And certainly not a family.
[QUOTE=Mutant;1161456]Please pardon my epic post, er, rant… A lot of frustration with the style that I usually don’t talk about.
This could largely be said about the state of Kung Fu in general these days in addition to Wing Chun, although we’ve become the poster child for this. Sad state of affairs, really. No offense meant to you guys with this. I really do enjoy a lot of the discussion threads here. And I believe Wing Chun to likely still salvageable with the right approaches, because there is so much to the art that has value. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what ever the hell its worth. Cheers.[/QUOTE]
Mutant, no need to apologize. You bring up some very good points. I visited your website and see that your gym has a core mission of training fighters but also welcomes others who are not really into fighting at that level, but are very serious about intense and realistic training. It’s a fact that most WC groups don’t have this kind of focus. It’s something worth addressing.