Well looing at the technique used Im not sure. I dont understand the mechanics that threw the guy off the top. He takes some energy by blocking the swing on the inside and then with the same arm goes to the outside.
Ive never given this much thought before but since watching the clip done that way I got to thinking what might work better.
The guy on the top swings and the guy underneath does a type of inside block. The moment the arm makes contact with the swing the blocking arm absorbs alot of energy. This is when the guy on the top’s balance will momentarily be compromised. As the enrgy of the swing will make one side of his body inclined toward the same side that he is punching with. So you wouldnt want to roll the guy off on the side used on the clip but the other side. The guy on the bottom should block on the inside like he did then stamp is opposite foot (left foot) and pushwhile using his left arm to help push the guy off to the side.
Does that make any sense? I dont think I explained it well. If any of you with good grappling experience could offer me a comment that would be appreciated as I have hardly any grappling experience. Is it valid?
The wing chun answer of thrusting your fingers into the mounter’s eyes is, in my opinion a little naive. I think the guy on top has a much better vantage point for attacking the eyes. He/she would also be in a better position to dodge an attack to the eyes than someone whose head is pretty much stuck to the ground.
Ah, so now we’re trolls because we disagree with you? Nice cop out.
I read and understood your explanation. I don’t buy it. You’re supposed to lock the elbow in TRANSITION without tight control of his upper body?
Low Percentage. I’ll take something a little less hit or miss.
At some point in the reasonably near future (in the next quarter-year), I will be more than happy to take you up on your offer of finding out what you are talking about for myself, PROVIDED you stop being so dang defensive. If I come up and your goal is to “show me what’s what,” I’m out of there. If you want to explore some concepts, situations, similarities, and differences, that’s a different issue.
I really don’t know what the problem here is… people tell me BJJ takedowns and striking suck all the time and I say, “Yes, Yes they do.”
Why is it always that ppl from kung fu talk about a gouge to the eyes or strike to the eyes is going to stop someone in the mounted postion?
Have any of you that say that ever tried it with someone in the mounted postion that knows what they’re doing?
It obvious that you have’nt because you would never say that if you had.The person in the mounts face is almost unreachable.The mount makes it that way,but they can reach your face with ease.It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.The rest of the centerline is exposed to you while their in the mount and well within reach.I’m not bashing Wing Chun i’m just surprised for all the centerline stuff you do that ppl say gouge or strike the eyes.
That has a very slim chance of working against a experienced grappler in the mount.For the record i study Black Tiger kung fu in case anyone thought i was a grappler.
I feel like I’m trying to rescue a drowning horse in terms of the technique shown on this video - even though I know that in a certain kind of race it’s a thoroughbred…
Perhaps when you come to New Jersey next month to do some training with myself and Keith we can redo this technique on tape and put it up on your website?
Either some folks don’t understand my explanation of how and why that punch is being neutralized, setting up a reversal…or they don’t want to understand.
Whatever it is, probably the best thing to do is re-tape the move.
Victor,
The funny thing is that a video, (which should have been on the seminar page), of 2 beginners trying to do a technique they just learned minutes earlier and having a little fun, caused so much fuss.
My expertise is standup fighting. Hopefully if I do get to the ground I’ll be able to get back on my feet. Thanks for the ground fighting experts input on the subject though.
It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.
((JMD_ come on: you are responding to a file ona website-thanks to Phil’s sharing of a seminar participation shot. Why are you generalizing about wing chun? Wing Chun does not give knee jerk uniform answers to every situation)))
That has a very slim chance of working against a experienced grappler in the mount.For the record i study Black Tiger kung fu in case anyone thought i was a grappler.
((Black Tiger-? Know nothing about it- but I wouldnt generalize about it based on your post))
Originally posted by jmd161 The person in the mounts face is almost unreachable.The mount makes it that way,but they can reach your face with ease.It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.The rest of the centerline is exposed to you while their in the mount and well within reach.
What’s within reach? You want to grab his nuts or something?
That’s even lamer than the poke to the eyes! Don’t show your ignorance of WC centerline principles.
As soon as you reach down with one hand, he’s got a chance to unload two hands on your face.
Edmund
Yeah but the guy on the top has the freedom to move out of the way or out of reach. The person on the bottom doesnt. The truth is if you have been mounted you are in trouble. It doesnt always seem so in events like UFC or Pride but thats because the floor surface is relatively springy. In more realistic scenarios the floor could be concrete or soemthing. That means if the mounter lands a punch your head will aborb all the energy because it is backed up by solid ground. Another thing the mounter could do is grab your ears and slam your head against the concrete. It wouldnt ake many of those before it was good night nurse.
I’m not saying that the poke to the eyes is any good.
I’m saying that attacking his nuts is lame. They are both lame.
I agree being mounted is trouble.
Originally posted by Miles Teg Edmund
Yeah but the guy on the top has the freedom to move out of the way or out of reach. The person on the bottom doesnt. The truth is if you have been mounted you are in trouble. It doesnt always seem so in events like UFC or Pride but thats because the floor surface is relatively springy. In more realistic scenarios the floor could be concrete or soemthing. That means if the mounter lands a punch your head will aborb all the energy because it is backed up by solid ground. Another thing the mounter could do is grab your ears and slam your head against the concrete. It wouldnt ake many of those before it was good night nurse.
No Prob.
I think the hip bump and throw his leg over your head technique is not going to work in a real situation.
Maybe they should try something else after grabbing the left hand. When the bottom guy hauls the left hand to his left and bumps his hips up, maybe he can use his right hand to push down on the top guy’s left knee.
Rather than roll left expecting the top guy to fall flat onto his stomach, the bottom guy can try roll to his right side as he pushes down on the knee and pulls his right leg out.
Once he has his right leg out, he can try hold the top guy’s left hand with both hands and take his back.
The funny thing is that a video, (which should have been on the seminar page), of 2 beginners trying to do a technique they just learned minutes earlier and having a little fun, caused so much fuss.
Well, that’s why I’m more than willing to explore this with UWC at some point. All I got was yelled at for expressing my opinion though so hey :rolleyes: .
No need for yelling on my part or talk of garbage or crap on your part. If you ever want to stop by and discuss and/or work with me concerning the moves in question I’m sure we can treat each other like gentlemen.
Originally posted by Edmund What’s within reach? You want to grab his nuts or something?
Edmund,
Is the centerline just the face and the groin?
If you think so?
Then you’re showing your ignorance of WC centerline principles.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond I studied Fu Jow Pai, which is from Haak Fu Mun, from Ng Wai Hong who learned from Wong Moon Toi. Are they the same systems?
Phil Redmond,
No i do not study Fu Jow Pai or Shantung Black Tiger.
I study Hak Fu Moon the style created by Su Hak Fu (Soo). One of the “Ten Tigers Of Canton” with Wong Khei Yin the father of Wong Fei Hung.My Sigung Wong Cheung Learned it from Fung Ping-Wai a former Shaolin Monk.
Then you’re showing your ignorance of WC centerline principles.
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Lame comeback. Don’t teach WC to me. You don’t even do WC.
You see anyone here telling you how to do Black Tiger?
Man, what arrogance. You want to attack the rest of the centerline while being mounted and call it WC. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Let me enlighten you about WC so you don’t give more ignorant WC advice:
When someone can reach your face with both hands, you cannot lower your guard from your head level to attack whatever you feel like. That is violation of the WC centerline principle. Until you get hand control of them you can’t lower your hands. It would give them a free path to your head.
Man, what arrogance. You want to attack the rest of the centerline while being mounted and call it WC. You don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
Errrrrrrr
I don’t remember calling my attacking the centerline WC.
I don’t need you to tell me anything about Wing Chun.It’s obvious you don’t know much about it yourself!
Nevermind bro!
I don’t even want to continue this debate with you.
Please read what I’ve said through my postings, that CLIP is garbage. I even outlined exactly what I thought was wrong with it and your explanation. I’ve fully admitted that subsequent showings by people with more ability might prove me wrong. I don’t think this is an unreasonable stance.
I’ve not cast aspertions on your grandmaster, your sifu, your style or anything else. I’ve fussed a bit about a clip, and gave very specific thoughts on why, not just “WC groundfighting sucks.” The closest I came to insulting anybody was remarking that not sparring live against people who know what they are doing produce those sorts of results–and that was BEFORE I realized they were beginners at a seminar.
Again, sorry if I upset you, but I think it’s important to quibble about that distinction.
