Wing Chun Groundfighting Clip

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

Phil is one of the most generous guys on the 'net with one of, if not the, best looking WCK sites out there.

MP is correct in his assessment of the technique shown. People can whine about it like little kids, or they can give a detailed analysis of why it could work to match his of why it probably won’t (though I still prefer other people do it as it will make my life easier).

Or, find someone who’s been in NHB as long as you’ve been in WCK, of similar weight and attributes, let them mount and start pounding you, and see if it works for yourself.

22

I agree about Phil and I believe that he is a very nice guy who would never teach any B.S to his students. Ground fighting is a whole subject. Could this technique work?..Maybe against some…Never against others.
Even the bridge and roll and the knee/elbow/shrimp escape will not work all the times.You need to really work and be alert for any flaw in the mounted assaillant’s base to make then work. (From my experience anyway!) There are no tricks and I could see this “technique” very well as some way to provoque a reaction or disrupt the opponent’s base in order to gain some advantage.

23

Originally posted by reneritchie
Phil is one of the most generous guys on the 'net with one of, if not the, best looking WCK sites out there.

this is true, i wish i could make a webpage that looked like that for our school, or had near that amount of information :smiley:

24

ONE MORE POST ABOUT “THE POST”

My final thoughts on the technique shown on the video:

First - it should be a right-hand bil sao (not a tan sao) used as the initial point of contact against the somewhat rounded punch - immediately followed by the threading hand bil sao (chuen sao) with the right arm - that slides along underneath the first bil sao..

MOVING HIS LEFT PUNCHING ARM OVER ACROSS HIS BODY TO HIS RIGHT - to be immediately followed by the right hand (specifically the palm of the hand) of the wing chun fighter onto the elbow of the assailant while holding his left wrist with your left hand lop sao…

The palm of the hand REALLY starts to pressure his elbow WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY BRIDGING THE RIGHT SIDE OF YOUR BODY UP AND TOWARD THE LEFT…

the assailant will nave NO CHOICE at this point than to POST on his right hand to avoid being completely thrown - AND HIS LEFT ELBOW IS NOW IN DANGER OF BEING LOCKED…

the wing chun guy then starts to lift up his right leg (hooking the opponent’s leg) far enough so that when he lets go of the opponent’s elbow he can immediately grab the opponent’s left leg near the ankle to bring that leg up over his head as he somersaults - WHILE STILL HOLDING ON TO THE OPPONENT’S LEFT WRIST…

Merryprankster: I’ll just let you ponder what that will do to the the opponent’s balance and position - to say nothing of the jeapoardy his left elbow is now in while he lays face down on the floor with the wing chun guy now taking complete control of his back and left arm..

The finishing moves that follow (which also did not appear on the video)…I won’t even tell you about…just in case you would like to try your luck someday against a highly skilled TWC guy…

let it be an unpleasant surprise as to what happens at the very end of this technique…and have a nice day.

25

Correction

In the very first paragragh of my previous post the chuen sao (threading hand bil sao) is performed with the LEFT arm…not the right arm.

That hand becomes the left hand lop sao at the opponent’s left wrist mentioned in the second paragraph.

26

Hey, it wasn’t a challenge tough guy. Back WAY the hell off, yah?

I’ve no beef with you and freely admit more information might prove me wrong. I analyzed the vid clip based on my experience and found it wanting. That’s it.

27

Perhaps the constant use of the word “garbage” to describe a technique developed and taught by Grandmaster Willliam Cheung may have had something to do with the tough-guy response…

28

That clip, as posted, is garbage. It’s nice of the poster to provide the info and all, but it’s crap.

Somebody better who does the details right might prove me wrong.

Sorry if that offends you.

29

so it would be impossible?

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
Perhaps the constant use of the word “garbage” to describe a technique developed and taught by Grandmaster Willliam Cheung may have had something to do with the tough-guy response…

I guess it’s inconceivable that William Cheung might show you a crappy technique. Hell, I’ve seen a crappy technique (a lame sweep where he almost fell over) by his German marketing arch-nemesis.

I primarily train Japanese Jujutsu. We have a small amount of hitting but, quite frankly, it’s mostly primitive and works only in very specific situations–after I’ve already slammed you into the ground or if you’re a mook w/o a clue. If someone (particularly someone from, say, kyukushin karate) pointed this out, we’d simply respond: “yeah, we know.”

Is the technique not garbage simply because William Cheung showed it to you?

30

Forget the video - after having explained the technique in detail the way I did - if either one of you two trolls still think the technique is “garbage”, or “crap”…

Again I’ll extend an invitation to check out it out up close and personal - with me, or any other TWC sifu you may ever come across.

Until then…adios.

31

um. I concur with MP & Tjd…

The move as shown in THAT clip wont work.

Proper control of the posting arm & leg will work. In other words, a PROPER dismount/umpa will work. But that clip wasn’t a proper example of one.

:smiley:

32

I also am of the opinion that that tech is garbage. Let’s see… we now have two BJJ purple belts and one brown (a total of probably at least 30 years of ground and grappling experience) who don’t think that tech is worth a hill of beans and one WC guy who has added a bit of catch wrestling into his WC and thinks he knows the best way to escape the mount. I wonder who is right.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
MOVING HIS LEFT PUNCHING ARM OVER ACROSS HIS BODY TO HIS RIGHT - to be immediately followed by the right hand (specifically the palm of the hand) of the wing chun fighter onto the elbow of the assailant while holding his left wrist with your left hand lop sao…
Bringing the arm across like this opens you up for an elbow to the face
.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
the assailant will nave NO CHOICE at this point than to POST on his right hand to avoid being completely thrown - AND HIS LEFT ELBOW IS NOW IN DANGER OF BEING LOCKED…
It’s actually your elbow that is in danger of being locked from here. Someone who is familiar with set-ups from the mount will have brought up his left knee under your right tricep and will snake his right arm through your’s at the elbow, setting up the arm bar.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun the wing chun guy then starts to lift up his right leg (hooking the opponent’s leg) far enough so that when he lets go of the opponent’s elbow he can immediately grab the opponent’s left leg near the ankle to bring that leg up over his head as he somersaults
Again, someone who is familiar with the mount will have his knees up high. Lifting your leg up will have no effect and you will not be able to grab his leg because your arms are trapped above the knees.

Originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
let it be an unpleasant surprise as to what happens at the very end of this technique…and have a nice day.
Methinks it might be the WC guy who is in for an unpleasant surprise.

33

Apparently this was at a TWC seminar and Phil just put up pictures of participants- as he said.

All kinds of people of differing abilities attend seminars. I dont think that Phil intended for the clip to show a definitive move.

Both guys seem to be somewhat sloppy- but it is just two
seminar attendees. What’s the big deal.?

Its pretty easy to criticize clips.

34

Originally posted by yuanfen
Its pretty easy to criticize clips.
I don’t know about the other guys, but I’m not criticizing the clips, per se. Rather, I am criticizing the technique that is being taught,as well as the techs that UWC is describing, as they violate some basic principles of how the mount is escaped, as well as maintained.

35

Knifefighter- I was referring to Phil’s comments not UWC.
Its not clear to me what was being taught from Phil’s comments.

You are not in wing chun and I dont know how much you know about the diversity in wing chun… but the point is that IMO there is no standard "wing chun"response. Things vary with lineage and individuals.

The brief clip looks sloppy but seminars draw people of varying skills and abilities. No big deal really.

36

Originally posted by yuanfen
You are not in wing chun and I dont know how much you know about the diversity in wing chun… but the point is that IMO there is no standard "wing chun"response. Things vary with lineage and individuals.

The statement there is no standard wing chun response stands on its own without the mention of lineage and individuals. :slight_smile:
[B]

The brief clip looks sloppy but seminars draw people of varying skills and abilities. No big deal really. [/B]

Yeah. No big deal. There aren’t a lot of Wing Chun video clips by whatever spelling or lineage that show much of Wing Chun let alone of grappling. It’s good to share and receive feedback.

The original post shows the integrity of the poster especially in the face of the inevitable sniping.

Regards,

37

Originally posted by John Weiland

The statement there is no standard wing chun response stands on its own without the mention of lineage and individuals. :slight_smile:

wile its true that for any situation there is “no standard wing chun response,” for each individual, in a situation there >>IS<< a correct wing chun response.

from my own (mabye lacking) knowledge, what was going on in that clip was not the correct wing chun response - for that situation . and like i said in my post, this was probably because both people doing the drill had become sloppy after practicing it over and over. the guy on top was just letting the guy on the bottom do whatever he wanted. since the guy on top was being sloppy in this way, the guy on the bottom got sloppy because he could get away with doing the drill without proper mechanics.

this is not a comment on the skill of either person demonstrating in that clip. they could be (and mabye are) fantastic WC people, however by the point where that clip had been filmed they had gotten lazy. this makes it pretty impossible to judge how well that technique will work as the situation had gotten extremely far from anything even resembling real life.

so either way, from what was shown and my lack of groundfighting knowledge, i don’t know if the technique would work. however from my knoweldge of wing chun and body mechanics, as it is shown on the clip, that wont work (on either end). i’d have to try it (or see it) against an (at least somewhat) resisting opponent to know that.

overall: i appreciate what phil is doing with his site, i think WC can work very well on the ground, UWC should probably calm down a little and realize that while william cheung is very good at wing chun, he is still human like the rest of us; and i need some sleep.

38

Originally posted by TjD
while its true that for any situation there is “no standard wing chun response,” for each individual, in a situation there >>IS<< a correct wing chun response.

There is no formulaic Wing Chun response to any given situation. The response will be dictated by sensitivity and timing.

The “he does this and I do that” scenarios are just karate overlayed on the word Wing Chun, and IMO not representative of ideal Wing Chun.

There is as you point out, one best response, but it’s always unique to the specific situation, not a given, because multiple responses are almost always possible, even in demonstrations.

Regards,

39

Knifefighter:

I first started to learn Catch wrestling in 1962…very intensely for about three years…was involved in many real streetfights (in NYC) throughout the sixties that frequently ended with someone getting pummulled with punches after being mounted…began with Catch again several years ago along with using and working against the mount, the guard etc…

as the BJJ guys and others in the UFC and Pride use them.

Now what I’m saying is that regardless of where he trys to position his knee (ie. - near my tricep) - if he mounts AND THEN IMMEDIATELY begins to throw down rounded punches toward my face…

I already discussed other types of mount scenarios on this thread - but if he does what I just described - the TWC move I described…WHICH IS DIFFERENT SIGNIFICANTLY IN MANY WAYS then what was demonstrated on that tape…what I described is ONE way of escaping THIS PARTICULAR MOUNT SCENARIO…

No…it’s his elbow that is in jeopardy because the bil/bil grab at his wrist and my other palm pressuring the back of his punching elbow is done so fast…there’s no way he could elbow strike me.

They key to THIS PARTICULAR scenario is the commitment he places on that rounded punch coming down at me - if he’s seriously committed the easier it is for the technique I’ve described to work…if he is more cautious, throws the punch more like a jabbing motion, and then immediately withdraws it to throw the other hand or to try some other kind of maneuver…then my response has to change into something else…

Not that I’m saying that escaping the mount is easy - because it is a very precarious position to be in, to be sure…

but there are ways to escape that are frequently successful.

As regards his knee: once you understand and agree…(if you ever agree) …that I can counter his committed rounded punch with what I’ve described - to the point where I now have my left hand gripping his left wrist tightly (AND BEGIN TWISTING IT) - and with my right palm (with the right elbow directly behind it) completely covering and pressuring his left elbow WHILE BRIDGING THE RIGHT SIDE OF MY BODY AND HIPS UP AND TO MY LEFT…

even if his knee was near my tricep…true I won’t hook left leg when I lift my right leg (precisely because it’s far up near my tricep)… but nonetheless I will be able to create enough space (if all went well up to now) to let go of his elbow (which is now no longer close enough to strike me and use my right hand to hook under the back-of-his-knee area and begin the semi-somersault.. ALL THE WHILE HOLDING ONTO AND PULLING AND TWISTING HIS LEFT WRIST …which now means that his left arm is being stretched between his own legs …as he is being forced to post on his right hand/arm to avoid being completely forced face down onto the floor, as I begin to take his back

…WHILE STILL SECURING HIS LEFT ARM BY THE WRIST… one of the unpleasant surprises is that his left elbow is in serious danger of being lokcked (barred) by his own front midsection…not to mention the fact that I can now start pummelling the back of his head with punches with my right fist.

40

OOOOOOOOOOoooo boy…

All i have to say about that video is.

:rolleyes:

If that’s the answer we in kung fu have to grappling then lord help us.

jeff:)