Some Wing Chun kats full range free sparring. I thought some may like this.
That’s not wing chun…that’s flailing w/ a few knees. If you’re going to practice an art–you should also use it to fight with.
That’s like all the karatekas that kickbox when they spar. What’s the point of practicing karate if all they’re going to do is box w/ a few kicks?
[QUOTE=Vankuen;786338]That’s not wing chun…that’s flailing w/ a few knees. If you’re going to practice an art–you should also use it to fight with.[/QUOTE]
That’s what WC looks like when people use it to fight with. If you disagree, please post a link to a clip or two to show showing what it is supposed to look like in a full contact setting.
That’s like all the karatekas that kickbox when they spar.
That’s because kickboxing is what karate looks like when it is done full contact against fully resisting opponents.
What’s the point of practicing karate if all they’re going to do is box w/ a few kicks?
That’s why most karatekas who fight full contact do more of a kickboxing style.
There are certainly variations in skill level and variations in application that will express themselves differently in performance depending on the rule-set.. Not all karate will look like kickboxing, depending on what people think they are supposed to be doing, how they think they are supposed to be fighting, what tools they use and how.. We fought full contact in my karate school but it didn’t really look like kick boxing… However, when one of our top guys fought and won in a kickboxing event, then what he did looked like kickboxing.. No one HAS to fight any particular way, again it depends on how they think they are supposed to be using the tools and what tools they use and how..
Take a look at the Lei Tai competition that Phil recently posted.. They COULD have fought just like the guys in this clip but they simply performed differently using similar tools but in a more efficient manner.. The level of skill in the clip on this thread is not the same as the level of skill in the Lei Tai clip, not all skill levels will produce the same performance and not all fighters in the same style will use the tools the same way, and how the opponent fights will also change how you fight; thus there is not one single way something looks when done at full contact/full resistance any more than every western boxer books the same when fighting different people. You can find similarities, fine motor skills diminish etc, but there is no one single way all people with different skill levels and personal styles perform…
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;786344]That’s what WC looks like when people use it to fight with. If you disagree, please post a link to a clip or two to show showing what it is supposed to look like in a full contact setting.
That’s because kickboxing is what karate looks like when it is done full contact against fully resisting opponents.
That’s why most karatekas who fight full contact do more of a kickboxing style.[/QUOTE]
Wrong, wrong, and wrong. No offense man, I remember you from when I used to come on here a lot. That is what crap ass technique looks like.
Let me put it another way:
Boxers train the way they fight. When they train, their techniques look exactly the same in full contact application.
Muay thai fighters train the way they fight. When they train, their techniques look exactly the same in full contact application.
Brazilian Jujutsu stylists train the way they fight. When they train, their techniques look exactly the same in full contact application.
I have personally seen wing chun in application against resisting opponents, and used with correct form. A right cross is not wing chun, (and I saw a lot of those in the video). The application of the knee strikes from 5 feet away is not wing chun. Etc. Etc.
Hi there Vankuen–Shprockets… 
I think there are a lot of different ways to express the system not the least of which reflects the level or ability of the WCK fighter.. If you fight a decent boxer vs, fight a decent Southern White Crane guy it will look totally different.. Fighting a westen boxer will tend to eliminate the need for certain moves and so IMO you have more disconnected striking than what some WCK people will think of when they think of WCK..etc… Again, it depends on who and how the fighters fight..
WCK should be training like it fights..even with the classical drill format–and I think that alone would solve a lot of problems, though not all with how most folks train.. Aside from luk sao <an attached starting point> in chi sao the moves IMO should be performed as they would be used in fighting, IE correct distance, timing and contact, for issuing power in the movements, etc..
I wholeheartily agree with your comments there YungChun. To clarify, I’m not talking about the techniques that aren’t used…but the ones that are.
Fights should be addressed based on the strengths and weakness’ of both fighters…but the techniques should still be done as they were in training. Seeing a wing chun person fight with boxing is just the same as a boxer using wing chun punches.
When I fight using muay thai—I don’t look like a gung fu fighter. When I fight using gung fu, I don’t look like a boxer. When I fight using wing chun, I don’t use boxing. If people train in a style and want to test the style’s success rate [for themselves] than losing technique and reverting to “whatever” is counter-productive to impirical research.
When I fight with pure instinct (and no particular style in mind), I use whatever method suits the situation at that moment in time–and often the movements will vary based on distance or successes and failures from previous motions.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;786456]
I have personally seen wing chun in application against resisting opponents, and used with correct form. A right cross is not wing chun, (and I saw a lot of those in the video). The application of the knee strikes from 5 feet away is not wing chun. Etc. Etc.[/QUOTE]
That seemed to me to be a pretty good demonstration of what WC in actual live application would look like.
Maybe you could point me to something more along the lines of what you are talking about?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;786517]That seemed to me to be a pretty good demonstration of what WC in actual live application would look like.
Maybe you could point me to something more along the lines of what you are talking about?[/QUOTE]
Aside from stray western boxing moves…
I think the difference is as simple as throwing a good punch or a not so good punch.. Same goes with any other technique or body mechanics.. You can have a sloppy boxer or a tight boxer with crisp moves—a fighter who only knows how to charge in with uncontrolled commitment or someone who measures distance and times his opponent… These are large differences that can manifest in any art/system, IMO.
What about the Lei Tai clip as a comparison?
[QUOTE=Black Jack II;786017]Some Wing Chun kats full range free sparring. I thought some may like this.
Pretty much what WC looks like when the other guy hits back 
Pretty much what WC looks like when the other guy hits back
Ouch!!
Badabing!!!
What the video shows them trying to accomplish is to make there system work under a stress based enviroment, so they can learn how to apply there skillsets in a uncontrolled situation. Of course its going to look a tad ugly, but that is how most mano-mano fights end up looking anyway.
I would wager these kids are learning far more about the importance of structure and combative flow than one would learn in chi sao or any reference point drill.
[QUOTE=YungChun;786518]What about the Lei Tai clip as a comparison?[/QUOTE]
Where’s that?
Van,
Personally, I believe a right cross could fit in nicely and still fall in the principles and concepts. It is the principles and concepts that make Wing Chun, not the techniques!! Don’t ever forget that no matter what your sifu says.
Who do you know that teaches a right cross in their wing chun classes?
For fighting in general…I’m all for it. In fact that’s probably my strongest punch–and it flows quite nicely with many types of punches from many types of styles (since there’s only so many ways someone can move).
Point being that flailing arms and legs–is not something people should strive for in any system, and that’s what I saw there. Granted–the clip shows fighting and I can admire the training intensity; but I can probably find a clip of plain ol’ streetfighting that looks close to identical to what we saw there as being “wing chun”.
[QUOTE=Vankuen;786787]Point being that flailing arms and legs–is not something people should strive for in any system, and that’s what I saw there. Granted–the clip shows fighting and I can admire the training intensity; but I can probably find a clip of plain ol’ streetfighting that looks close to identical to what we saw there as being “wing chun”.[/QUOTE]
So where is a clip of people fighting with good wing chun?
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;786802]So where is a clip of people fighting with good wing chun?[/QUOTE]
Again, I don’t see what the confusion is all about.. Clearly there are different levels of skill in ANY ART.. as I talked about already on this thread.. There are going to be novice, intermediate and advanced where most folks are going to fit somewhere in the middle range.. There are certain basics that apply to any art, effective use of distance and movement, footwork, making angles, timing the opponent, making good power, not punching and having your wrist collapse regularly, etc…
I guess one of the reasons there is confusion is because not too many WCK folks compared to MMA, boxing, etc, do hard/full contact, but many do.. It would be nice to see more of it.. I think many folks are afraid of not looking “good enough” to put their stuff out there, in part because they think it doesn’t look as good as the demos, and no it won’t, but that’s okay, it’s not supposed to… Sadly a lot of people don’t know this and so you have misunderstandings on the part of those in the art and those who want to sell the art and those outsiders who like to see good demos, who are ‘shopping’ for an art…
Any who… “Good” is a relative term… I think this is BETTER… And I will not criticize the performance or “use of the system” by these two practitioners, who I think have only been training for less than two years, because these boyz won their division…and good on them..
So Dale: Here is some better WCK… And thanks to Phil for posting/hosting the video..
those guys in the ring look like they’re having awesome fun, but the best thing is they’ll be able to look back on the video and see what mistakes they made, what they did good, what they need to change, do different etc. much better than just blindly carrying on learning stuff and not having any feedback or REAL learning experiences…
textbook wing chun or not after a while those guys will be a handful! they’ll tear it up more than the form and drill masters thats for sure…
also to be honest the elbows to the spine etc where a bit scary, think they need better safety supervision :o
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;786802]So where is a clip of people fighting with good wing chun?[/QUOTE]
We didn’t keep videos around when we trained during those years Knifefighter, so I’ve got nothing to show you; and I’m sure you’ll capitalize on this by saying “than you’re full of it if you can’t find a video on google or utube”. But in real life–not everyone walks around with a video camera every second of the day. (We were too busy actually training).