Wing Chun free sparring

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=YungChun;786836]Again, I don’t see what the confusion is all about.. Clearly there are different levels of skill in ANY ART.. as I talked about already on this thread.. There are going to be novice, intermediate and advanced where most folks are going to fit somewhere in the middle range.. There are certain basics that apply to any art, effective use of distance and movement, footwork, making angles, timing the opponent, making good power, not punching and having your wrist collapse regularly, etc…

I guess one of the reasons there is confusion is because not too many WCK folks compared to MMA, boxing, etc, do hard/full contact, but many do.. It would be nice to see more of it.. I think many folks are afraid of not looking “good enough” to put their stuff out there, in part because they think it doesn’t look as good as the demos, and no it won’t, but that’s okay, it’s not supposed to… Sadly a lot of people don’t know this and so you have misunderstandings on the part of those in the art and those who want to sell the art and those outsiders who like to see good demos, who are ‘shopping’ for an art…

Any who… “Good” is a relative term… I think this is BETTER… And I will not criticize the performance or “use of the system” by these two practitioners, who I think have only been training for less than two years, because these boyz won their division…and good on them..

So Dale: Here is some better WCK… And thanks to Phil for posting/hosting the video..

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/movie_viewer.asp?obj_width=320&obj_height=240&filename=images/movs/misc/lei_tai07_teaser.flv&filesize=55.6MB[/QUOTE]

10x better. Kicks used at distance, punches used in midrange, and elbows used perfectly at extreme close range, sweeps done w/ great timing. Nothing flailing…

That’s more what I’d say is good wing chun at full contact. But then Yungchun had a good point when he talked about skill levels. These guys were of higher skill for sure.

22

"Who do you know that teaches a right cross in their wing chun classes?

For fighting in general…I’m all for it. In fact that’s probably my strongest punch–and it flows quite nicely with many types of punches from many types of styles…"(Vankuen)

***I DON’T GET THIS :confused:

But first of all, welcome back to the forum, Van.

If you believe that a rear cross is great for fighting in general - and you understand, as so many people do, that it probably will be your strongest punch - then why wouldn’t you teach it in your wing chun class?

Because it’s not the prototypical wing chun vertical fist punch? So what? Isn’t your wing chun class there for learning how to fight “in general”?

And furthermore, as someone else already said on this thread, the concepts and principles of wing chun have room for a rear cross within them, ie.- from a slightly longer distance than from the vertical fist punch with the centerline-facing-his-center-of-mass range.

Isn’t bil sao horizontal instead of vertical? Can’t a bil jee strike be horizontal? …Now picture it with a closed fist coming from the rear hand.

Oh, but the body torgue at the hips and shoulders when throwing a rear cross breaks wing chun rules, you say?

Not if you’re slightly further away - and there’s an opening to land it. Then the CLOSE QUARTER wing chun “rules” don’t apply.

Or they shouldn’t apply.

If we’re interested in fighting in general. :smiley: :cool:

23

Re: Boxing

After thinking about it for a while I had decided that from now on when I teach my little group that along with the standard WCK stuff we will also do standard boxing stuff and drills…

The reasons for this:

Folks need to be familiar with the movements that are most commonly used here in the USA and how to use them…

They need to be familar with attacking from no contact and develop longer range hand/eye coordination–and those drills help..

They need to be able to attack with these tools in a reasonably competent way so when working WCK folks can experience more realistic attacks with greater variety…

Overall they expand on the attributes folks develop..

24

jab, cross, hook, uppercut, elbow, knee are all in Wing Chun. they aren’t the exactly the same as other styles that use them.

25

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;786910]
Isn’t bil sao horizontal instead of vertical? Can’t a bil jee strike be horizontal?
[/quote]
Or a palm–deem…
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;786910]
Oh, but the body torgue at the hips and shoulders when throwing a rear cross breaks wing chun rules, you say?

Not if you’re slightly further away - and there’s an opening to land it. Then the CLOSE QUARTER wing chun “rules” don’t apply.
[/quote]
Agreed so long as the mechanics are right.

When done right ala boxing, the rear punch snaps right back, along with the hips and should not over extend, unlike a reverse punch that is very extended and totally loads the front leg. So, over loading the lead leg aka violating the rules is a non issue at range IMO..

26

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;786910]"Who do you know that teaches a right cross in their wing chun classes?

For fighting in general…I’m all for it. In fact that’s probably my strongest punch–and it flows quite nicely with many types of punches from many types of styles…"(Vankuen)

***I DON’T GET THIS :confused:

But first of all, welcome back to the forum, Van.

If you believe that a rear cross is great for fighting in general - and you understand, as so many people do, that it probably will be your strongest punch - then why wouldn’t you teach it in your wing chun class?

Because it’s not the prototypical wing chun vertical fist punch? So what? Isn’t your wing chun class there for learning how to fight “in general”?

And furthermore, as someone else already said on this thread, the concepts and principles of wing chun have room for a rear cross within them, ie.- from a slightly longer distance than from the vertical fist punch with the centerline-facing-his-center-of-mass range.

Isn’t bil sao horizontal instead of vertical? Can’t a bil jee strike be horizontal? …Now picture it with a closed fist coming from the rear hand.

Oh, but the body torgue at the hips and shoulders when throwing a rear cross breaks wing chun rules, you say?

Not if you’re slightly further away - and there’s an opening to land it. Then the CLOSE QUARTER wing chun “rules” don’t apply.

Or they shouldn’t apply.

If we’re interested in fighting in general. :smiley: :cool:[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the welcome back. I had to take some time off to wait for my wrist to get to a point where I could punch effectively again. I broke it and had 2 surgeries to get it fixed but now it seems apparent that it’s not going to heal. So I’ve got some hardware holding things together. However now I can punch again without too much issue. Luckily it’s just my left hand.

I’ll try to clarify my thoughts Vic,

I see styles of martial arts as subsets–catagories if you will of prescribed methods and techniques for fighting. EVERY style has strengths and weaknesses, and those strengths and weaknessess can be seen when using the system (and that system alone) in a full contact atmosphere. Subsequently the impirical fighter would be able to determine where his or her strengths and weaknesses are in regard to that system by keeping in line with the system’s techniques and boundries. Throwing in other things taints the hypothosis of the experiement if you will.

I don’t consider wing chun’s overhand movements to contain the same power as my MT or Boxing punches. The physical mechanics alone inhibit this. They can be similiar yes, but not the same thing (as far as the way I’ve learned things to be over the years).

I remember watching clips of some of your classes Vic–and my fighting method looks a lot like yours, using what comes naturally at given ranges. It can’t be any simpler. But overall–when I’m testing styles, or just want to focus on one–I contain my movements to that one (to the best of my ability anyway, sometimes other stuff sneaks in instinctively).

27

[QUOTE=Vankuen;786962]
I don’t consider wing chun’s overhand movements to contain the same power as my MT or Boxing punches.
[/QUOTE]
Disagree… Structure is one thing, power potential is another, IMO.

All the same “motors” are at work.. The quesiton is if folks use them all given what they think they are supposed to be doing by following “wing chun rules” which I submit were not intended to limit the use of the arm/elbow, the shoulder, the waist, the legs, and the alignment thereof, sinking, etc in making pleanty of power. And WCK elbows can be very powerful..

In that Lei Tai clip the #1 guy KOd his opponent with “hospital punches”–they seemed to have pleanty of power to me… :slight_smile:

28

See I thought he ko’d him with the elbows. When he fell first–it was because of a right elbow.

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[QUOTE=Vankuen;786980]See I thought he ko’d him with the elbows. When he fell first–it was because of a right elbow.[/QUOTE]
Ask Phil.. They’re calling them “hospital punches”..

In any case there is lots of power that can be made with WCK mechanics.. Aside from my own experiences, I have seen others send people flying through the air with palms.. AMAZING power is possible…

It’s like in boxing. The jab is not supposed to be that powerful, but fast.. The rear hand or inside hook is more powerful but slower or needs a delivery system.. The same idea is found in different ways to apply the moves in WCK.

30

I remember what Phil was saying at the end…from the fighting clip the first time I saw the wavering was after the elbow–and then when he connected with like 3 elbows in succession I knew it was pretty much over for the other guy.

You’re right Yung–could be MY limitation or natural ability in either one. When I hit a heavy bag using wing chun I dont get anywhere near the same result as when I hit it with boxing. But again–probably my limitation. Just like the styles, we individuals have strengths and weaknessess as well.

31

Figure out where the extra power is coming from and then put it back into the WCK moves..

I liken the standard punch, at range to the jab…

The whipping punch to the hook… both come from the hips/waist the whip whips more AND thrusts..

The deem to the straight right or rear right vertical to rear right horiz.. Both can use major leg/hip/shoulder elements..

The options of moving/driving through the target or center with the horse with full body mass is there in both…

The ‘sitting’ in WCK is similar in how boxers set and hook we whip…

The uppercut to the splitting punch or wong jung, very similar ..both are very powerful…

CK elbow very powerful..

Biu Jee elbow? Massive power..

Deem Gerk? Massive power..

32

[QUOTE=Vankuen;786338]That’s not wing chun…that’s flailing w/ a few knees. If you’re going to practice an art–you should also use it to fight with.

That’s like all the karatekas that kickbox when they spar. What’s the point of practicing karate if all they’re going to do is box w/ a few kicks?[/QUOTE]

I’ve got to disagree with you. What do you think Wing Chun would look like a Shaw Brothers Kung Fu movie. That definitely looked like Wing Chun.

33

[QUOTE=wiz cool c;787453]I’ve got to disagree with you. What do you think Wing Chun would look like a Shaw Brothers Kung Fu movie. That definitely looked like Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]

I don’t mean to offend, but I too have to question what in that video was wing chun. Granted wing chun in application won’t look perfect or like some shaw bros movie, not sure any one suggested it would. But is this really how wing chun looks in application? I disagree. For a comparison, I have seen amature boxers/kick boxers that don’t look much different, then I have seen professionals that look quite different. The difference is the skill level.

If you think it is wing chun, ask what principles were followed in these matches. To me it looked like the more aggressive and better fit fighter was winning by overwhelming the opponent, not by any real skill. I would question that this is the wing chun Yip Man held dear and espoused.

Where are the stances? Since when do the shoulder drive the punches? Where in wing chun are these ground techniques and muy thai knees that are being applied? I honestly haven’t seen much that is wing chun. Using Chain punches and a front kick doesn’t makes something wing chun.

I do give then kudos for going in the ring though. I think they are testing stuff and they have a sense of how they can fight. I just don’t see much (or any) wing chun.

34

The human body can only move in so many ways that are “unique” and rule sets can easily determine how a fight will look.

Full Contact WC with a person hitting back is NOT a “pretty” sight unless their is a huge skill descrepency.

35

**** Sits back and lets SR handle this one.

36

So what does a WC person do if he ends up on the ground? One of the uses for the Wing Chun Gwai Mah is to deal with an opponent who is on the ground.
From what I’ve heard WC Master Sum Nung (sp)? could fight on the ground.
Also, who ever said there were no knee strikes, head butts, or whatever you need to use to survive in WC?
I’ve learned knee strikes from at least 2 Sifus who studied under Yip Man.
WC is principle based. You use whatever works for a given situation.
Remember WC was designed for rebels to fight/ambush/kill or Manchu. Wing Chun is a “Kuen” not a “Pai” nor a “Do”. To win by any means neccessary is the goal. You’ll rarely see PERFECT technique against a resisting opponent. Fighters know that.
PR

37

One of my WC buddies once told me any knee up the centerline is a WC Knee :smiley:

I have seen WC look like WC in a REAL fight, a few times actually, the skill level was obvious to all, he toyed with the other guy.
But when my WC buddies go at it full contact, while there may be the occasional look of WC since they are both WC it is more like a typical K-1 match.

38

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;787641]So what does a WC person do if he ends up on the ground? One of the uses for the Wing Chun Gwai Mah is to deal with an opponent who is on the ground.
From what I’ve heard WC Master Sum Nung (sp)? could fight on the ground.
Also, who ever said there were no knee strike, head butts, or whatever you need to use to survive in WC? I’ve learned knee strikes from at least 2 Sifus who studied under Yip Man.
WC is principle based. You use whatever works for a given situation.
Remember WC was designed for rebels to fight/ambush/kill or Manchu. Wing Chun is a “Kuen” not a “Pai” nor a “Do”. To win by any means neccessary is the goal. You’ll rarely see PERFECT technique against a resisting opponent. Fighters know that.
PR[/QUOTE]

Hi,

Not sure if this is addressing me. I concur mostly with the above. Knee strikes can be extrapolated as I suppose head butts can. But not every head but and knee strike conforms to wing chun practices… or does it? To me it looked like borrowed techniques from MMA, Muy Thai, and even a judo type throw. I especially agree that WC is principle based. Which principles were followed in these clips and which were violated?

A bit off topic but was the are designed by rebels? If it was I don’t think it was very successful. Wing Chun seemed to go into the hands of the upper class, atleast for a while. The opera troupe was shutdown after a riot. I have heard people talk about the rebel nature of wing chun, but there seems to be little documentation to support that, so it just becomes oral tradition that should be taken with a grain of salt as we can’t confirm it. But if we do by that theory, then I would submit that wing chun was created by a female for a female. Those techniques shown wern’t the most advantageous for a female practicioner, where they? I wonder if that is how Yip Man, or even Sum Nung fought…

39

No one is saying the fight should look “pretty” by any means. What some are saying including myself, is that the people in that video weren’t following wing chun concepts / theories / or techniques for that matter. Actually–they didn’t seem to follow any fighting properties. They were spraying and praying. No distance, sidestepping, no timing, no nothing. Maybe that’s what it all came down to–no skill.

Now on a contrasting note–the higher level fighters from Phils’ place did all of the above, and put on a better example of what I would consider proper wing chun.

P.S. I also learned knees, elbows, etc. in WC…just never learned the MT clinch w/ knee in WC.

40

What I saw in the video that looked like wing Chun was the classical chain punch, straight kick and elbows done the way I’ve seen them instructional videos. What more do you need. Anything else and where getting into the fantasy kung fu movie stuff. In the 70’s Shaw Brother films the Kung Fu expert never looks bad. He easily defeats his opponent with his back straight with one arm. People still think this **** is real.