You seem to post that alot,but end up in every thread i’m replying to telling ppl i’m on your ignore list.
Man get over it!
Fine you don’t care for what i’m saying.So keep my name out of your post.
Anyway back to the me not knowing Wing Chun principles.First off i stated in that post i was not bashing wing chun.I thought the guy in the mount was open for a centerline attack and was merely stating that.
Originally posted by jmd161 It surprises me that Wing Chun with all your centerline talk would try for the face.The rest of the centerline is exposed to you while their in the mount and well within reach.I’m not bashing Wing Chun i’m just surprised for all the centerline stuff you do that ppl say gouge or strike the eyes.
Now that is what i posted.I really don’t see where i was trying to tell someone how to do their Wing Chun.I just stated that i thought the rest of the center line was open.Also he was very high in the mount and not locked in there were other things that could have been done.Now i do admit i was refering to two different things in that post and maybe it came across wrong.I was upset because kung fu ppl always talk about a gouge to the eyes in that position.That is easier said than done.
jmd16
Correct . Folks get stuck on gouging etc.
The guy at the bottom has many kinds of wing chun based choices,
depending on what the guy on top is doing.
You dont mechanically depend on a fixed technique.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond Victor,
The funny thing is that a video, (which should have been on the seminar page), of 2 beginners trying to do a technique they just learned minutes earlier and having a little fun, caused so much fuss.
My expertise is standup fighting. Hopefully if I do get to the ground I’ll be able to get back on my feet. Thanks for the ground fighting experts input on the subject though.
Hello Phil,
I think the reason this has caused so much “fuss” is that there is precious little information on Wing Chun on the ground. So this is probably the “best” Wing Chun mount escape most people have seen. Some of the BJJ mount escapes I’ve seen on the net don’t look that hot either. Take this one for example:
Nothing wrong with the technique, but the guy on top is clearly not resisting. To be fair this webpage has a disclaimer that the guy on top is staying upright so that you can better see the arm postition of the guy on the bottom. But it looks like he could easily get clobbered by the guy on top if he chose to do so. Now check this site:
To borrow a phrase this one looks more “alive”. The guy on top looks like he’s giving more resistance and the one on bottom is actually working a cover. I hope you and Victor can get together soon and do a better demo that shows real resistence from the guy on top. Of course some people still won’t be convinced unless you film it in the octogon.
Wing Chun does not historically have ground fighting in its generational transmissions. Any ground fighting found nowadays is either an attempted extrapolation of standing principals to the ground, or an attempted integration of existing ground fighting from other methods. Neither, or the absence of both, on their own are good or bad, and the end results will tell.
Roy Harris is showing a basic shrimp escape from the mount which is highly effective for either sport BJJ or Sub Grappling, and very narrowly effective in Vale Tudo (unless you’re in exactly the right circumstances, you will get pounded as you try it.)
Gene is essentially showing the same escape.
In real life, seldom will paint by numbers techniques work but an understanding of the situation developed through experience and training, with the sensitivity and awareness that comes with it will allow spontaneous transitions that will usually get the job done (this is the same for any art, be it as old as the wisdom “fake left to go right”).
Roy Harris is showing a basic shrimp escape from the mount which is highly effective for either sport BJJ or Sub Grappling, and very narrowly effective in Vale Tudo (unless you’re in exactly the right circumstances, you will get pounded as you try it.)
Not exactly true. Use your hands to cover your face, use your hip bump to disrupt the guy, and execute the escape using your knees and elbows. Disrupting their balance really takes the oomph out of the shots. It’s getting stuck there that causes problems!
I too hope to see a better vid clip so I can understand what’s going on more thoroughly.
It really just depends on the situation. They all work fine. I personally find that good people won’t let you bridge or come out the back door very often… so that kinda leaves you to the shrimp.
However, you shrimp in conjunction with the bridging–throws their balance forward giving you a chance to create the space to at least get back to guard.
Thanks. The thin guys seem to shrimp well, the big guys bridge, the really good guys get the transitional escapes and I wonder what the heck they’re doing
As I’ve said, tho, I don’t worry about mount as much as side control, with the knees, elbows, etc…
Let me put it to you the KWJ way…if you’re mounted and your trying to do some chop socky Sheit, you’re gonna get yo’ elbow broke. Gouge his eyes/break his elbow…my ar$e. You first and ONLY priority is to ESCAPE. The person who can do the damege is the one on top.
Rene you are missing the point! I already said that both people were essentially doing the same escape! But one was showing the escape without doing any resistance. The other was using resistance. You can clearly see from the second set of photos that it should work, but you CAN’T see that from the first set of photos. You accept that it works because you’ve SEEN it work under fully resisting conditions. For people to believe that the move shown on Phil’s site works they’ll have to see it pulled off under fully resistive conditions. Do you understand what I’m saying now?
Regards,
John M. Drake
Originally posted by reneritchie
[B]John,
Wing Chun does not historically have ground fighting in its generational transmissions. Any ground fighting found nowadays is either an attempted extrapolation of standing principals to the ground, or an attempted integration of existing ground fighting from other methods. Neither, or the absence of both, on their own are good or bad, and the end results will tell.
Roy Harris is showing a basic shrimp escape from the mount which is highly effective for either sport BJJ or Sub Grappling, and very narrowly effective in Vale Tudo (unless you’re in exactly the right circumstances, you will get pounded as you try it.)
Gene is essentially showing the same escape.
In real life, seldom will paint by numbers techniques work but an understanding of the situation developed through experience and training, with the sensitivity and awareness that comes with it will allow spontaneous transitions that will usually get the job done (this is the same for any art, be it as old as the wisdom “fake left to go right”). [/B]
Not exactly true. Use your hands to cover your face, use your hip bump to disrupt the guy, and execute the escape using your knees and elbows. Disrupting their balance really takes the oomph out of the shots. It’s getting stuck there that causes problems!
I too hope to see a better vid clip so I can understand what’s going on more thoroughly. [/B]
MP I agree. I’m no BJJ expert, but on the clip from the Roy Harris site it looks like the guy on top could easily clobber the guy on bottom because he drops his face cover. And he can drop his face cover because he’s really not getting any resistence from the guy on top. But the photo series from the BJJ.org site shows resistence from the guy on top and consequently good covering from the guy on bottom as he works the escape. As Rene said it’s the same technique, but in one case it’s excuted MUCH better than in the other case. Indeed that’s the point I was making!
The grappling experts here say that a technique is not done properly based on a photo or mpeg. For instance some said that the mount was done incorrectly. I’ve seen street fighters with no training mount this way. Would the techinque be effective against someone who didn’t know how to mount properly and was punching wildly in anger? You know, like the kind of encounter you would most likey see in the street. Also, people have said this and that would happen based on a photo/video clip. How many UFC/Pride, etc. fights have we seen where one person was obviously losing then turn around and win. There are too many X factors in a real fight.
Anyway, I have removed the mpeg and will wait until I have some more experience with ground fighting before I put up another example of groundfighting. My kung fu brother Keith Mazza, who has fought in these types of events, is going to give me an insight into groundfighting when I visit his school in NJ next month.
hi guys you know big joy i am going to get into trouble for this
but is my sifu "S first book , sil lim toa i love what masters fongs
says about this , don"t get on the ground in the first place , but i don"t agree about what rene said about wing chun not haveing ground fighting if you know bill jee this also leads to ground fighting peace russellsherry
Almost anything can work against a smaller, weaker, less experienced or ignorant attacker. Know those “Ninja” demos where the opponent throws a reverse punch and the “Ninja” catches it with his chin, twists, and the opponent flies through the air?
I prefer bread and butter stuff that will be high(er) percentage against a bigger, stronger, equally experienced (more is tough) person.
Russel,
You can disagree all you like, but I doubt you can point to a historic example of Wing Chun Kuen being used in a ground fighting situation like you could with Judo, BJJ, etc.
go to a judo gym.tell the instructor that you do wing chun,but would like to “up” your ground game.believe me,ground/grapple
guys are far more friendly than you may imagine.certainly easier
to approach than most wck instructors ive met.[on average].
then, when you randori [spar under pressure] a bit,the never
ending ground hog day threads of:“i do wck,but what if im grabbed
or grounded?”,will no longer cause you anxiety.dont know if r and r and merryprankster would agree,but no art is %100 the whole
package.but,its no humiliation [or admitance that your fave art is
woefully incomplete] to study two arts that address different facets of a fight.you may even find a judo/bjj teacher that also does stand up/strikes based arts himself.i did.go forth my warrior!
Russell.
ps.and if grounded,never forget your legs.
You’re correct in my experience. No where near the attitude or problems of ‘MA’ people, probably because they don’t have to pose or front or act tough, they’re competing every day and know their level, so they can just relax and go out on the mats.
