[QUOTE=IronFist;1042644]
I’ve noticed that on many forums. Why does that happen?[/QUOTE] Because you’re g@y.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1042643]nobody does this, not even you guys. you pad up, which lends a false sense of security.
I see it in places where there is a lot of hungry, but I’d wager you and your pals never ever go full contact with sharps and I’d also say you wear plenty of gear for blunts.
yes, I’ve seen the vids from S.A and Guinea where the kids knife fight and so on, but that is not even close to within the paradigm of western martial artists at all outside of military guys who are in the stink already.[/QUOTE]
Most times you gear up (although sometimes you go no gear with sticks and not fully sharpened blades).
The principle is the same as Judo, BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai and all the other functional arts… training full-contact in the atmosphere that keeps injuries to a minimum is superior to training with “deadly” techniques that don’t allow for full contact.
Over the years, I’ve seen it demonstrated again and again. The guy who trains weapons full contact with gear, easily beats the guy who trains weapons with no-gear, but no full-contact.
As far as the false sense of security, not really. What it does do is give you the ability to hit very, very hard with a weapon. Watch some of the dog bros clips and you will see numerous examples of guys getting ko’ed and/or having their heads spilt right through the gear.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042611]And neither does traditional training. The difference is with traditional training you fantasize that you will somehow be able to pull those things off.[/QUOTE]
Yes…
I often sit and fantasize about elbowing an opponent…
But I know that I could never pull it off.
All I said was the classes I were in didn’t have any.
that why I said perhaps you had a bad teacher.
How long should I be walking around in circles(ba gua form training) before o get to hit someone?
ummm I woul say few months but what are you in bagua for? to learn the art or to hit people.?
MMA is a sport, bagua is an art, so depends on what your aim is I guess. I have a few students, that arent intetesed in fighting at all, one student enrolled in my class to become more flexible and improve his balance and agility, but I dont think they are wasting thier time learning kung fu, however if a person wants some dicipline and culture perhaps MMA is not the avenue for that at well, so again it depends on what your aim or goal is.
iron fist,
Why does every conversation of “MMA is more applicable to real fighting than TMA” invariably turn into butthurt TMA guys crying “oh yeah, well unless you include eye gouges and groin biting and knives and guns then MMA isn’t very ‘realistic’, either!!!1!11!one!1!!”
depends on who you talk to but I would say that when you have a SPORT and rules this takes some of the real combat out of the equation and certain tech cant be done. expect for the knives and guns part.
I liked it when tyson bit his oppents ear, i thoguth cool real fighting, but in the SPORT of boxing it was frowned upon, to me TMA allows you to bit, scratch, pull, tear, gouge and spit.in this sense TMA is more realistic than MMA with rules and regulations and weigh classes.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042646]Most times you gear up (although sometimes you go no gear with sticks and not fully sharpened blades).
The principle is the same as Judo, BJJ, boxing, Muay Thai and all the other functional arts… training full-contact in the atmosphere that keeps injuries to a minimum is superior to training with “deadly” techniques that don’t allow for full contact.
Over the years, I’ve seen it demonstrated again and again. The guy who trains weapons full contact with gear, easily beats the guy who trains weapons with no-gear, but no full-contact.[/QUOTE]
Surely you must understand that there is ferocity required to cut and stab someone with any efficacy at all. There’s no playtime, no sparring, just get in and get it in, period.
sparring castrates that when you gear up and make it safe.
There are simply some things you cannot “train”.
when it comes to these things, you either have it in you or you don’t period. You can’t train a guppy to be lion.
people are either capable of doing this or not, training in my opinion should mostly consist of weapon retention, and understanding where to strike from a physiological sense. “what works” is known when it comes to weapons.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1042650]Surely you must understand that there is ferocity required to cut and stab someone with any efficacy at all. There’s no playtime, no sparring, just get in and get it in, period.
sparring castrates that when you gear up and make it safe.
There are simply some things you cannot “train”.
when it comes to these things, you either have it in you or you don’t period. You can’t train a guppy to be lion.
people are either capable of doing this or not, training in my opinion should mostly consist of weapon retention, and understanding where to strike from a physiological sense. “what works” is known when it comes to weapons.[/QUOTE]
Weapons are no different than any other kind of training.
Skill, strategy, and tactics can be developed. And just like with any other type of training the closer you get to reality (and reality is always about hard contact), the more effective you will be.
Understanding “where to strike” with weapons is simply an extrapolation of the same old theoretical of the TMA “deadly strike” nonsense.
[QUOTE=IronWeasel;1042648]Yes…
I often sit and fantasize about elbowing an opponent…
But I know that I could never pull it off.:([/QUOTE]
Do you elbow you opponents in training… if not, you probably will have a hard time puling it off.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1042633]dragon,
trapping allows you to control your opponet.
you said not functional? pleas explian.
as I said in my eariler post trapping an opponents arm agsint thier chest while u gound and pound IS trapping.
(tui sao) sticky hands is version of trapping
ironeagle,
please understand, forms are meant for many reasons other than just fighting, people practice weapons but dont intend on cutting off someones head if they get into a scwabble. so is thier practice usless? or does it benefit them in thier own way???[/QUOTE]
I understand that, but let’s be clear about something. If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1042623]it created a bunch of “prodigal sons”.
Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated… who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today’s world.
We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn’t. We’re the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.[/QUOTE]
This.
And then I found Buk Sing. 
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1042657]I understand that, but let’s be clear about something. If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042651]Weapons are no different than any other kind of training.[/quote] I disagree. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion. Weapons training is dictated by the weapon and it’s optimal use as such.
Skill, strategy, and tactics can be developed. And just like with any other type of training the closer you get to reality (and reality is always about hard contact), the more effective you will be.
I disagree. You seem to think banging is the answer to everything. Maybe you should try something like fencing with sabre and get a handle on subtleties. lol
Understanding “where to strike” with weapons is simply an extrapolation of the same old theoretical of the TMA “deadly strike” nonsense.
Again, here you are completely wrong. You wanna cut someone or you wanna stop someone dead in their tracks because where you hit them with the sharp, blunt, or projectile makes all the difference in the world.
You are always seeking a way to snipe on tma.
in my books, that makes your viewpoint myopic and overly opinionated and therefore virtually useless.
I am open to stealing from wherever I can. 
MMA guys tend to think I’m too strict, traditional, backward, whatever…
CMA guys think I’m somehow betraying some sacred tenet of CMAs.
Kinda annoying actually to be caught in the middle of the road.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1042667]
I disagree. You seem to think banging is the answer to everything. Maybe you should try something like fencing with sabre and get a handle on subtleties. lol[/QUOTE]
I fenced for a couple of years. In fencing, you are basically going full contact.
Skill + full contact = applicability.
Again, here you are completely wrong. You wanna cut someone or you wanna stop someone dead in their tracks because where you hit them with the sharp, blunt, or projectile makes all the difference in the world.l
And like the theoretical “deadly” techniques, you can’t always pick where you are going to cut someone. And, even when you can, it often doesn’t stop them in their tracks.
If you are going to stop someone in their tracks the best way to increase the probability of being able to do this is to have experience in hitting someone as hard as you can while both you and your opponent are moving and he is also trying to hit you as hard as you can.
The person who is completely wrong would be the guy who thinks he can hit hard, but never practices doing that against an actual moving opponent who is hitting him.
You are always seeking a way to snipe on tma.
in my books, that makes your viewpoint myopic and overly opinionated and therefore virtually useless.
I am sniping on unrealistic training techniques. Doesn’t matter where they come from. BJJ has standing “self-defense” techniques that are just as ludicrous. Judo has dumb@ss kata forms. Lots of dog bros guys are still in the magical “hubud” training mindset. They are all equally unrealistic.
This is only a place of discussion…and argument.
But in your training hall, it’s your training hall.
If you are serious in your approach and know your stuff, you’re golden.
anyone harping about it can take a walk would be my perspective.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042672]I fenced for a couple of years. In fencing, you are basically going full contact.
Skill + full contact = applicability.[/quote] I fence as well, not as much as I would like, but it is still not totally realistic. It does teach you how to move with a blade (variety of shapes) when you train beyond and off the piste. Free style fencing sessions still have you in a mask, jacket with tipped swords. Pretty safe.
And like the theoretical “deadly” techniques, you can’t always pick where you are going to cut someone. And, even when you can, it often doesn’t stop them in their tracks.
No you can’t choose, but you don’t waste effort where you don’t have to and you don’t poke where there isn’t a leak. There is more efficacy in thrusting into the sternum, cutting across the soft belt, reaching and stepping round to the kidneys and also not forgetting to strike at the closest target to you. Often, striking at the wrists and jointed areas with a slashing weapon or thrusting to the soft and organ areas with a thrusting weapon have little to do with the theory as they do with desirable targets and you can train to hit targets.
I am sniping on unrealistic training techniques. Doesn’t matter where they come from. BJJ has standing “self-defense” techniques that are just as ludicrous.
Actually, you snipe in a blanket method and make preposterous assumptions that you then throw onto all martial arts that are in the realm of traditional. I agree, crappy training methods are crappy training methods, but knowledge and the application of it is only that. No blame to cast.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1042676]No you can’t choose, but you don’t waste effort where you don’t have to and you don’t poke where there isn’t a leak. There is more efficacy in thrusting into the sternum, cutting across the soft belt, reaching and stepping round to the kidneys and also not forgetting to strike at the closest target to you. Often, striking at the wrists and jointed areas with a slashing weapon or thrusting to the soft and organ areas with a thrusting weapon have little to do with the theory as they do with desirable targets and you can train to hit targets..[/QUOTE]
And the person who trains to hit those targets in a full contact setting will be better at hitting those targets than someone who doesn’t.
Hey Guys I’ve noticed that if you train 8 hours a day instead of 4 hours a week you get a lot better at MA!!!
Hey I’ve noticed if you have your bollocks surgically removed you have fewer weakpoints!!
Hey, if you take shots of adrenaline you can become super strong and violent!
Hey, if you go outside and randomly mug people you will get better at actually hurting real people! Physically and mentally.
My point is there are many ways to improve your ability to fight, but everyone has their limits. Training by going into full contact no rules fights is not training at all, it is actual fighting. ITs good if you want to be a good fighter but bad if you just want MA to avoid getting hurt. And pointless if you do MA for other reasons (spiritual/health/sport).
NO one will argue that to train by actually applying techniques under pressure is the best method, and often MMA does this better. The techniques are of no consiquence, its the training method. SO kung fu can do this too, and some do. But everyone has their limits, and even though MMA may be tame to some of you (sanjuro, you and your VT fights!) it is beyond some peoples comfort zone. Let those people train as they will, they still benefit.
Everyone has different goals. Everyone has limits. The whole MMA Vs Kung fu argument is ridiculous… The technique of all is good. If you want to be a good fighter, you need to fight. there is no other method. The more you do it, the better. YOu train MMA twice a week and think kung fu guys are weak? what about the guys who train everyday, they think you are weak, but do you have time to be like them? what about the guys who get into real fights everyday? they are better than you too. What about people who have actually killed others? they are stronger than you too, but do you want to be like them? Each to his own. Its a stupid argument. There are too many variables.
But everyone has their limits, and even though MMA may be tame to some of you (sanjuro, you and your VT fights!) it is beyond some peoples comfort zone.
Hey, it was a stupid thing to do that I did because I wanted to test my skills, why?
I’ll tell you why:
Because, like so many I had been told that rules hinder the real deadly moves, that sport fighting makes one have all sorts of bad habits.
Thing was, I had been bouncing for a while and even serve din the military and what I saw was that the very some “sport stuff” the worked in the ring, worked on the street and that the other stuff, when tried by other guys, didn’t work.
Well, I still didn’t know for sure, was it perhaps that I just had not met the “real” street fighter that could rip out my eyes and throat the kick my nuts out through my ears ??
Well, in Vale tudo, I had the chance to test what I knew VS TRAINED fighters that, if they wanted, could do just that.
I fought in a few closed doo “dojo” fights and a few matches in Quebec and even one in a certain motorcycle clubs “fight club”.
What did I learn?
What I had always known:
The very same qualities that make for success in one ring, make it in EVERY ring.
[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1042657]I understand that, but let’s be clear about something. If someone is practicing forms for the sole reason of enjoyment and exercise, and know and are told by their instructor that these are not beneficial for martial and fighting skill, that is one thing. Totally different when they are sold a load of BS about secret techniques and doing forms alone making them able to competently fight or defend themselves. That is where the line needs to be drawn.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Well said.
It’s weird that a guy with the moniker “knifefighter” has such a “blunt-work” oriented position on the whole “how to fight with weapons” question.
I agree that full-on training with blunts is MARVELOUS.. but it’s not the be-all and end all.
My personal view is that a nice blend of
- “magic hubud”/tapping/back-and-forth for flow and reactivity,
- blunt-sparring (to the maximal degree your situation/health can tolerate) to build reflexes, pain avoidance, fighting spirit, etc,
AND - target hitting and test-cutting (to REALLY figure out what you can do with a sharp thingie) are all good stuff.
It’s worth noting that FMA didn’t need much in the way of “test cutting” when people worked on farms clearing brush with their bolos and actually USING the sharps daily.
I am NOT impressed by people who think the gold path to FMA skill is free-on sparring. You need way more than a scrum to get good.