[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1042572]well, not including weapons of any variety.
some ma are strictly weapon based.[/QUOTE]
Unless they are sparring/fighting full contact in a weapons-based environment, they are wasting their time.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1042591]saavy,
- why did you give up the flavor of your paticular stlye? forms are the core
applications of your style be proud of them, maybe focus on the application of each
individual move instead of the whole form - you should have been conditioning all along
- why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.
- you must perfect the tech with a partner who is willing to help you understand
the dynamics of the movement, then perform it on a resisting opponet to make
sure it works - LOL the goal is not to GET hit, why on earth would you spend more time getting
hit, conditioning your face by getting punched is not a good idea. - when you can read your oppents (Yi) intent its is that much easier to overcome
them, every fighter telepgrahs thier intent, its up to you to train how to read it - same as above.
PS when we trained MMA for the UFC we rolled around practcing tech with non resiting opponentss until the tech was learned then we tried it out resisting oppents… this is no diffrent than kung fu, karate, boxing, tae kwon do or wrestling[/QUOTE]
I should probably elaborate on the 7 things I listed. What the hell did I type again in the original post? lol.
-
I believe that people get trapped by forms especially when trying to apply them in sparring. Forms have core applications BUT many times I’ve seen people try to extrapolate variations of techniques from them that only fit specific situations, sometimes look unrealistic, and cannot be applied in sparring.
-
Conditioning takes many forms so technically I’ve been doing it all along. But there is a persistent belief that forms are a good way to condition the body. I find this to not be true at all. Imagine if swimmers were taught to do a swimming form in the air for months and then thrown into the Olympics? They would not fare well.
-
Trapping is a huge part of Northern Mantis so I can see why you feel this way. But I’ve been finding that the kind of trapping that gets taught doesn’t work well against people actually moving to hit you. I think trapping works well when demonstrating technique and is good to develop some hand sensitivity but getting stuck in this phase leads to frustration because arm trapping is extremely hard against strong people and skilled people.
-
When I said practicing technique against a resisting opponent I wasn’t talking about push hands where two dudes just push each other a few inches away. And I definitely wasn’t talking about me doing a technique and the other guy, fully knowing what I’m about to do, resists it on purpose. I was talking about randori practices involving striking and throwing where both people are going against each other.
-
When I said get hit more I wasn’t referring to let people punch me in the face to get conditioned. LOL! Does anyone actually do this? I was talking about actual contact training. When I studied aikido, karate, and ba gua. In these three classes there was virtually no contact. If anyone got hit it was an accident from doing technique but there was never any hard contact. Only really soft contact. The people in these classes were reluctant to engage in such practices.
-
It’s not easy to read an opponents intent. Sparring is a good way to get experience in this.
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1042591]
3. why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.
[/QUOTE]
Please show an example of trapping working in a full-contact environment.
Please show an example of trapping working in a full-contact environment.
i never understood why people got wrapped up in trapping. I learned it in my younger days but never found it very “functional” to say the least. Now i have used sticky hands but thats different.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1042599]A$$-backwards or not I have heard this in more than one place.
How’s the new school location doing for you? Come to think of it…I’m not sure where your old school was but the question still stands. Ha.
Has anyone ordered Chinese food from you yet?[/QUOTE]
- you are right, and that’s the sad truth.
MMA is a wake-up call for these guys to start training their art correctly, as it was meant to be trained. But don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Take your techniques and drill them properly.
2)The new location is AMAZING! But..we haven’t opened yet. We had a major plumbing glitch withthe town of Huntington,which after many weeks, and mucho denaro, we have fixed, and are awaiting our final inspection for our CO.
We have a stack of people who have come in waiting to sign up. You should stop by and see this place-nothing like this has ever been done- a large scale, traditional Mo-Kwoon, in an upscale shopping center.
- Sifu James Cama called me up last night and asked for an order of Lo-Mein!
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042610]What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people. These days, fewer people believe this fantasy.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I’m not against MMA, And i like realistic training, but sorry i have used groin attacks before, and yes it does change things a bit. If you allow it you find yourself protecting the groin like it was your face, and you have to hold yourself a little different. And step a little more carefully.
But as Sanjuro said I’m sure in any MMA gym there are people willing to fight you with no rules. Just don’t assume everyone who trains kung fu has only fought battles in their mind.
sure MMA changed kung fu
it created a bunch of “prodigal sons”.
Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated… who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today’s world.
We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn’t. We’re the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1042623]it created a bunch of “prodigal sons”.
Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated… who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today’s world.
We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn’t. We’re the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.[/QUOTE]
Yep, that’s sounds about right.
[QUOTE=MightyB;1042623]it created a bunch of “prodigal sons”.
Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated… who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today’s world.
We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn’t. We’re the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.[/QUOTE]
Good post. Pretty much says it all.
One thing I want to point out is the forms debate, although as old and crusty as a grandma’s dentures, still makes me wonder. Most Kung Fu forms I have seen include too many unrealistic movements that one has to “break down” and “decipher” than train them realistically and with resistance. I always find it funny how the basics of any good fighting art are simple, to the point, trained the way you will apply them, and are not practiced while someone prances around in stances and movements they will NEVER use while fighting. Just thought I would throw that out there.
P.S. I know, I know, I have never seen “teh realz” Kung Fu forms:D
saavy,
to comment back without cutting and pasting as its too long I will list my rebuttle in numbers. so please go back and reference my comments to yours.
-
agreed, people CAN get trapped up in forms and collect too many of them without every fully understanding the applications that are in them this is true, but their are many MA’s that dont get trapped up in form collection without purpose.
-
forms condition the body for agility grace, balance and foundation. not for toughnees or conditioning of sau the hands or feet, this is done by striking, IP finger srenghtening etc etc
-
what kind of trapping that gets taught doesnt work you ask? IMO incorrect methods, not enough practice and lousy teachers. trapping an arm against an opponent chest while you are doing a ground and pound it still trapping. But one should never get stuck in any one part of the cpomplete whole.
-
this should be part of any intermediate level of ANY martial art chinese or otherwise.
-
if you studied those styles and they didnt let you have ANY contact, you were with bad teacher or you wernt in it long enough. I have some beginner students (less than a 6 solid months) who cant fight and dont know applications yet, but to say aikido karate and bagau dont practice contact or just soft contact ubsurd
[QUOTE=RenDaHai;1042620]Yeah, I’m not against MMA, And i like realistic training, but sorry i have used groin attacks before, and yes it does change things a bit. If you allow it you find yourself protecting the groin like it was your face, and you have to hold yourself a little different. And step a little more carefully.[/QUOTE]
Most people have the groin attack thing covered by about 5th grade or so.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042610]What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people. [/QUOTE]
This.
It shattered the following illusions that were (are) commonly held my TMA’ists:
-
There are secret techniques you can do to stop much larger opponents (how many ads for these secret systems did you see in the backs of MA mags in the 80s and 90s?)
-
Forms give you a large arsenal of effective fighting techniques
-
You can practice alone and then be adequately prepared to fight a resisting opponent
-
10-hit combos are an effective defense against a punch (because attackers leave their arms out there after throwing said punch)
-
Size doesn’t matter
-
Strength doesn’t matter
-
Don’t worry about grapplers, you can stop a takedown with a knee to the face
-
Your out of shape instructor is “too deadly” to spar with you
There are a lot more, but that’s a good list.
Before MMA, I lived in this delusional world created by martial arts myths that I learned in Karate class as a kid. One myth was that I was actually able to competently defend myself because I had karate training.
After 10 minutes in an MMA class, my entire reality had changed. Years of myths and BS and “MA social conditioning” were wiped away. It was a little depressing; all I wanted from MA was to be an effective fighter, and I had been doing everything wrong. For years:
Studying forms for secret techniques? Worthless for actual fighting.
Size and strength? Phenomenally important (unless the other person is a COMPLETE noob)
Your out of shape instructor? Never been in a fight a day in his life.
10-hit combos? Worthless. Real opponents that are actually trying to hit you don’t leave their arms out there waiting for you.
Grapplers will gladly eat your knee to the face (with which you will probably miss, anyway) to take you down and dominate you within 10 seconds, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing on the ground).
If you’ve never trained against a resisting opponent then it doesn’t matter even if you’ve trained hours a day for years; you will lose to a boxer with 1 month of training.
dragon,
i never understood why people got wrapped up in trapping. I learned it in my younger days but never found it very “functional” to say the least. Now i have used sticky hands but thats different.
trapping allows you to control your opponet.
you said not functional? pleas explian.
as I said in my eariler post trapping an opponents arm agsint thier chest while u gound and pound IS trapping.
(tui sao) sticky hands is version of trapping
ironeagle,
I always find it funny how the basics of any good fighting art are simple, to the point, trained the way you will apply them, and are not practiced while someone prances around in stances and movements they will NEVER use while fighting.
please understand, forms are meant for many reasons other than just fighting, people practice weapons but dont intend on cutting off someones head if they get into a scwabble. so is thier practice usless? or does it benefit them in thier own way???
[QUOTE=EarthDragon;1042626]saavy,
to comment back without cutting and pasting as its too long I will list my rebuttle in numbers. so please go back and reference my comments to yours.
-
agreed, people CAN get trapped up in forms and collect too many of them without every fully understanding the applications that are in them this is true, but their are many MA’s that dont get trapped up in form collection without purpose.
-
forms condition the body for agility grace, balance and foundation. not for toughnees or conditioning of sau the hands or feet, this is done by striking, IP finger srenghtening etc etc
-
what kind of trapping that gets taught doesnt work you ask? IMO incorrect methods, not enough practice and lousy teachers. trapping an arm against an opponent chest while you are doing a ground and pound it still trapping. But one should never get stuck in any one part of the cpomplete whole.
-
this should be part of any intermediate level of ANY martial art chinese or otherwise.
-
if you studied those styles and they didnt let you have ANY contact, you were with bad teacher or you wernt in it long enough. I have some beginner students (less than a 6 solid months) who cant fight and dont know applications yet, but to say aikido karate and bagau dont practice contact or just soft contact ubsurd[/QUOTE]
I never stated that aikido and ba gua don’t have sparring. All I said was the classes I were in didn’t have any. The argument that one wasn’t studying long enough to be sparring is old. How long should I be walking around in circles(ba gua form training) before o get to hit someone?
you said not functional? pleas explian.
as I said in my eariler post trapping an opponents arm agsint thier chest while u gound and pound IS trapping.
i said not VERY functional. meaning it doesn’t work that great in resistant environment. to many veriables left open… the other guy can move, has a free hand, etc. All good for show when doing demo’s.
Anyways trapping to me is a waste of time… i want control in a fight i go for clinch and take down… I have full control then. Not half “functional” control. Just how i fight.
[QUOTE=IronFist;1042631]This.
It shattered the following illusions that were (are) commonly held my TMA’ists:
-
There are secret techniques you can do to stop much larger opponents (how many ads for these secret systems did you see in the backs of MA mags in the 80s and 90s?)
-
Forms give you a large arsenal of effective fighting techniques
-
You can practice alone and then be adequately prepared to fight a resisting opponent
-
10-hit combos are an effective defense against a punch (because attackers leave their arms out there after throwing said punch)
-
Size doesn’t matter
-
Strength doesn’t matter
-
Don’t worry about grapplers, you can stop a takedown with a knee to the face
-
Your out of shape instructor is “too deadly” to spar with you
There are a lot more, but that’s a good list.
Before MMA, I lived in this delusional world created by martial arts myths that I learned in Karate class as a kid. One myth was that I was actually able to competently defend myself because I had karate training.
After 10 minutes in an MMA class, my entire reality had changed. Years of myths and BS and “MA social conditioning” were wiped away. It was a little depressing; all I wanted from MA was to be an effective fighter, and I had been doing everything wrong. For years:
Studying forms for secret techniques? Worthless for actual fighting.
Size and strength? Phenomenally important (unless the other person is a COMPLETE noob)
Your out of shape instructor? Never been in a fight a day in his life.
10-hit combos? Worthless. Real opponents that are actually trying to hit you don’t leave their arms out there waiting for you.
Grapplers will gladly eat your knee to the face (with which you will probably miss, anyway) to take you down and dominate you within 10 seconds, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing on the ground).
If you’ve never trained against a resisting opponent then it doesn’t matter even if you’ve trained hours a day for years; you will lose to a boxer with 1 month of training.[/QUOTE]
I wish I could say it did all that, but as we know, too many of these points are still being advocated and believed.
[QUOTE=SavvySavage;1042636]I never stated that aikido and ba gua don’t have sparring. All I said was the classes I were in didn’t have any. The argument that one wasn’t studying long enough to be sparring is old. How long should I be walking around in circles(ba gua form training) before o get to hit someone?[/QUOTE]
I watched two wrestlers working out with the lead instructor at the BJJ / MMA gym where I go.
They wanted to add some striking to their arsenal because they are both getting ready to fight in a MMA event that’s coming up and our place has become the “go to” place for this area of Michigan.
They started doing basic straight right and lefts in motion, stationary, side to side, etc. They then did this thai or boxing slip with the elbows thing that I’ve never seen before. They drilled that in motion too. After about 15 minutes of this. He had them face off and one was a striker and one was doing the slip to get outside then move in thing. It was controlled at first. Then he had them add speed and broken rhythm. It was unchoreographed but far from being a sparring session… As I observed this process which took a grand total of 30 minutes. I saw something kind’ve scary. I realized that these guys - yes they’re a bit awkward now - but in about 3 to 6 weeks of this type of training - they’d be at or above the level of some TCMA guys that have practiced for 3 years or more.
I didn’t stay to watch the whole session.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1042639]I wish I could say it did all that, but as we know, too many of these points are still being advocated and believed.[/QUOTE]
Only by other brainwashy TMA schools.
I guess you could say that MMA has done that for the people who have experienced it, and is beginning to do it as a whole. Obviously there will always be TMA schools because TMA is cool, but there will also probably always be TMA schools where they teach students 10 hit combos and that weight lifting is bad and makes you slow and you can just qiblast your opponents or iron palm them in the head if they’re grappling with you.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042612]Unless they are sparring/fighting full contact in a weapons-based environment, they are wasting their time.[/QUOTE]
nobody does this, not even you guys. you pad up, which lends a false sense of security.
I see it in places where there is a lot of hungry, but I’d wager you and your pals never ever go full contact with sharps and I’d also say you wear plenty of gear for blunts.
yes, I’ve seen the vids from S.A and Guinea where the kids knife fight and so on, but that is not even close to within the paradigm of western martial artists at all outside of military guys who are in the stink already.
While we’re on the subject…
Why does every conversation of “MMA is more applicable to real fighting than TMA” invariably turn into butthurt TMA guys crying “oh yeah, well unless you include eye gouges and groin biting and knives and guns then MMA isn’t very ‘realistic’, either!!!1!11!one!1!!”
I’ve noticed that on many forums. Why does that happen?