Tradition is What?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
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Just like seeing my name in bold :wink:

I’ve got a question for youse traditionalists (not technique related):

  1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?

  2. Do you/your school use the ‘jargon’ of said culture when identifying actions, techniques, et al?

I answer yes to both of these. No, another question, if yes . . .
why?

Not to offend anyone (particularly those with whom I study) but I am in America. I don’t pronounce the Japanese terminology so much as I butcher it and defile its grave. I don’t look all that sexy, or feel all the loose, in the traditional karate gi. So, one day, I wondered to myself, “why are we borrowing the culture when what we study is the martial art?”

Lord knows I couldn’t tell an Okinawan or Japanese student the technique I was going to do. Better to just show 'em.

Just sleepy after full-store inventory. Talk amongst yourselves.

Peace.

2

Yes to both, I can say some japanese techniques, and i do wear a gi(if thats what you mean by dress)…But mostly we only use the technique name in Japanese, like mawashi-geri, or oi-tsuki.

We dont say the dojo kun in japanese though…

So no we dont boroow the tradtion of the culture,just the tradition of the martial arts, the way that Gichin Funakoshi taught

3

“1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?”

Gi is solely practical!

4

In my case, yes to both.

I believe it’s very respectful towards the ancestors to pass on the tradition and to train accordingly. Even though the world is undergoing constant changes, we mustn’t forget the past, for it is the past that defines the present.

5

“I believe it’s very respectful towards the ancestors to pass on the tradition and to train accordingly. Even though the world is undergoing constant changes, we mustn’t forget the past, for it is the past that defines the present.”

Just to heat it up a little,do you think that it is absolutely necessary to do this? I mean,of course it is necessary to train “accordingly” but to preserve culture..?
Your reply has a historical tone to it,what do you mean by ancestors? :slight_smile:

6

Originally posted by Former castleva
Just to heat it up a little,do you think that it is absolutely necessary to do this? I mean,of course it is necessary to train “accordingly” but to preserve culture..?
Your reply has a historical tone to it,what do you mean by ancestors? :slight_smile:
Well, obviously people have their own opinions on these things, and I believe that it is respectful to pass on the tradition that was once passed on to you and your teacher, even if the past masters were no longer in charge of things (deceased). In a society like China, family is very important and it is equally important to abide by the family tradition and to pass it on to the next generation as a heritage. Other cultures take it differently and some are not as strict with tradition as others. It’s highly dependent on cultural backgrounds, so there cannot be a single universal code.

7

Oh, and with ‘ancestors’ I meant past masters, originators, predecessors, etc. Whatever you want to call them. :wink:

8

Thank you for a careful reply.

9

1.) No.
Tracksuit pants and T-Shirt for us, TJQ suit for demoes only.

2.) Yes.
It helps when we got our annual get-together, not everybody speaks each others tongue but the terminology remains the same thus confusion is avoided.

10
  1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?

YES. We wear Keiko Gi and Hakama. For formal occasions we wear a Kimono style uwagi.

  1. Do you/your school use the ‘jargon’ of said culture when identifying actions, techniques, et al?

Yes.

Why? Because many of the principles can not be properly conveyed in English. The school I study, being a Koryu Bujutsu(old style Japanese MA) is very steeped in the tradition and culture of Japan.

Just to heat it up a little,do you think that it is absolutely necessary to do this?

YES.

KG

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"YES. "

Because- :slight_smile: ?
I´m not demanding an explanation,but if you´d like to point out why it is necessary OUTSIDE of personal/common preference,I´d like to hear.

12

Yes, why indeed?

We would be very interested in why you feel keeping the cultural aspects of your art are necessary.

Oh, ttt.

I feel that the only things necessary to keep, at least from a cultural stand point would be the names of the forms (if any) in your system.

Besides, most of the karate students/sensei I know use purely Japanese terminology when referencing techniques/actions in karate. Which makes only a bit of sense to me, as some of the terms (such as the numbers. God, why must we count in Japanese? I’m American! I butcher the English language enough as it is!) are different in Okinawa and Japan.

That is, if you’re doing an Okinawan-based art.

Were I to start my own school today (thank God I can’t, don’t have to) I’d require comfortable workout clothes, belt ranks could be worn, not necessary, no bowing in/out, no counting in Japanese/Okinawan, no bowing at beginning/end of kata, minimum use of foreign terms.

But, maybe I’m an @$$hole and a Jingoist.

Sue me.

13

People can be very different. :smiley:

14

Sorry for the delayed response. Been traveling (work related) and didn’t have much time to get on the forums. :slight_smile:

Ok, why did I answer yes in whether or not it’s absolutely necessary to keep the cultural aspects of the art intact?

That’s a pretty good question. My personal opinion is that foreign budoka (I’m speaking of strictly traditional Japanese arts as that is my primary study) should make a serious effort to understand or at least familiarize oneself with Japanese etiquette as well as language if they wish to be taken seriously by seniors in their respective arts.

I feel that the study of budo is more than the study and memorization of physical techniques, but rather the study and preservation of a cultural “treasure” (art). This study should include language, etiquette, history (at least as it relates to the art you study), and of course technical application of your art. Also, imho to not educate oneself about the culture and etiquette from your arts country of origin limits ones ability to properly interpret the original intent and meaning of ones chosen art.

A final note, I mentioned earlier in the thread a lot of the Japanese terminology as it pertains to budo does not translate accurately into English. There may be multiple meanings and implications associated with the particular terminology and it will not do it justice to simply translate it to English as it may diminish the original idea presented.

So YES, I feel one should keep the ‘trappings’ of tradition intact.

KG

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KG:

Dang good response. As relates to your area of study, that is an excellent reason.

For me, I wish to “preserve” certain cultural aspects of my art, as it is Okinawan. I feel, though, that exchanging those Japanese aspects which were added to it would be a good idea in America.

Again, excellent post.

16

gis and tradition

interesting, i’ve noticed that whenever a japanese stylist posts a thread about tradition none of the CMA partake in the discussion. weird. anyway, as a SDer, yes, we also wear the gis to commemorate tradition, the tradition being of our great grandmaster fleeing china for indonesia and then giving an outward japanese appearance to the kung fu he was teaching in order to avoid the discrimination Chinese faced there at the time.

there are some SD schools that prefer to just use the chinese sashes and ‘tai chi’ uniforms, but most of the schools use the gis for the external curriculum and allow the tai chi outfits for the internal students.

as for names, we learn both chinese and english names, in addition to the japanese terms for a few things.

i strongly believe that is important to learn the original names for techniques because it fosters not only learning of the art’s original language, but also provides a medium of communication across borders to discuss and research the history and philosophy behind techniques, without which the practioner would be missing out on a large part of the martial arts.

all the other cultural mannerisms (bow, salute, etc) are preserved because as several have said, we are studying a traditional martial ART (which implies a cultural element), as opposed to some elite/combat fighting systems that just focus on the martial aspects. but even some of them will depict the teachers in (western) military fatigue or pants!

17

new avatar …heh heh

on the matter of tradition.
all i have to say is… what do you call it when tradition evolves, because it happens. belt wearing as rank isnt an ancient tradition so to speak but a modern decision

so when you speak of traditions , what do you mean. ancient ones or modern ones…?

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SA:

I see your point. But, this ain’t really a blanket statement, just my feelings on the arts, for myself, to really feel like I am growing and trully expressing myself in martial arts,I need my art to be a part of my culture. Certainly don’t mind having certain obvious roots to Okinawa (just an aside; most toudi/karate students differentiate between Japanese and Okinawan arts, even the different types of karate) as that is where the art came from. But, I am practicing this, and am rather emersed in the American culture.

ST107:

By tradition . . . hoom . . . good point. Darn You! :mad:

In my dojo, and my style in general (I guess) we use many Japanese terms, customs, and dress which I find . . . silly.
I am doing nothing more than a disservice to the Japanese language in my horrible mispronunciation of terms, I look and feel uncomfortable in the Gi (top, at least) and the culture recieves a wound every time I bow facing an opponent.

I feel I’m repeating myself, as I really don’t have a whole lot to say on the subject. I am most certainly saying “bad” to those martial arts practitioners who use the customs of their art’s origin, but it ain’t gonna fly for me. This is a part of me, and though it came from another country, so did just about every thing else in this d@mn nation. For me, the art is in the understanding and expansion of the self. It’s hard enough for a man to be honest with someone else; I don’t wish to add any more difficulty in being honest with myself.

[/overanalyzing]

19

kg

very nicely put. that is exacetly how I see it and why I have only yesterday arrived in China (cma being point of study)

It absolutely goes without saying that to shirk the cultural aspect of your ma you are also shirking wholistic understanding of that art, as in how and why it was developed progressively,

from what historical sociological objective and perspective

…without which you really have no idea what the hell they are really describing ( which is why I and many other traditional cma practioners consider non-internal art practice incomplete and comparitively ineffective)

20

Vash,

Thanks for the kudos. I had a few days to think about my response… :wink:

As for your comments: Were I to start my own school today (thank God I can’t, don’t have to) I’d require comfortable workout clothes, belt ranks could be worn, not necessary, no bowing in/out, no counting in Japanese/Okinawan, no bowing at beginning/end of kata, minimum use of foreign terms.

I know where you are coming from. However, if you were not change these things, i.e. taking out the cultural components of the art, I would no longer call it Karate/Toudi, but rather call it “Vash’s combative concepts” or whatever…

You also said:

For me, the art is in the understanding and expansion of the self.

I agree completely. I think someone would be hardpressed to say they study old Japanese MA (let’s say swordsmanship for this example) for self-defense. :smiley:

FWIW, I personally study these arts for a couple of reasons, one of them being what the Japanese call “Ningen Keisei”, character building. The main principle being perseverance, i.e. never giving up even when discouraged. So in essence, your training is about unceasing training… How you practice the art rather than what one practices, is the primary purpose of training.

Starchaser107,
I’m of the understanding that the art evolves, not necessarily tradition. In this case, tradition means that there is a cultural continuity in customs, social attitudes as well as the technical and linguistic aspects of (your) chosen art, whether it’s Asian, European or a Russian art…

I agree with you on the belt wearing issue (along with the Dan/Kyu system) and that it’s not an ‘ancient’ tradition. As you know it is something Jigoro Kano used as part of his educational approach of teaching his newly created art, Judo. And I think the American culture has added to this by creating a plethora of colors and ‘stripes’ in true “commercial spirit”. :rolleyes:

As an example, one of the arts I study has a direct traceable lineage of almost 400 years (it was founded in 1615). The art has changed slightly over the years in that there have been components added into the system, which was not part of the teachings of the founder. However, these changes have been documented and taught with the understanding that it was not part of the original teachings…

blooming lotus,
Thanks. I agree with you completely! I also spent some time in Asia studying MA (primarily Japan) and also went to Taiwan on a couple of occasions to train in Neijia.

One of the primary reasons for me taking up the practice of traditional Japanese MA was based on my interest in Hoplology, the study of the evolution and development of human combative behavior.

BTW, where in China are staying? I’ll be going over to Shanghai in January for a short trip.

Sorry for the long post everyone!
KG