The end of tradition?

As many of you know, I have trained in and taught both modern wushu and traditional kung fu. My background in traditional kung fu was very very traditional as my teacher was in his 70’s when he began teaching me. While we probably were not as formal as many other schools, especially because I drove him around, helped him take his medications, etc. The atmosphere in the school was very traditional. We learned the traditional methods in forms and fighting.

What I mean by traditional is we were expected to know forms, applications of the forms (on multiple levels), Qi Gong, bag conditioning, etc. When students were taught new forms, they were expected to train on their new stuff on their own after they were taught. Each student had a somewhat individual path the teacher gave them. There was respect to the teachers and from the teachers from all of the students. There was school loyalty. There was Yum Cha after classes. Tournaments weren’t only about medal count. There were friendships (as in the case of Eagle Claw and Mantis going back generations) between schools. There were even rivalries (again, some going back generations) which made competition even more interesting.

In general there was excitement and enthusiasm to go to class…to go to tournaments as a team and to represent your kung fu style no matter where you were. Kung fu men were respected in society (especially Chinese society)

Is this lost in today’s age? As funny as it sounds…maybe the traditions peaked and began a rapid decline in the mid 1990’s. Maybe with the aging and dying out of that first generation of kung fu masters to come to the US, these traditions are being lost.

Why do I say this? I take an example from a recent demo I did with my daughters. This demo was done for the Association of Chinese Americans and in attendance were about 800 Chinese people of all ages. We demonstrated traditional mantis and eagle claw. One thing I noticed about Chinese kids is they all had their cellphones and they were almost always in the lobby area clowning around and not paying attention to the rest of the program(the kung fu was a small part of it). When I would be in the lobby, I’d ask these kids..“hey want to do kung fu?” almost universally the answer was “nah, that’s too hard” and they’d go back to talking on their phones or to their video games. When the kung fu part of the demo actually started, one older lady rounded up all the kids and made them watch. There seemed to be genuine disinterest on many of their faces and after the demo most of them went out to screw around in the lobby. By contrast, the older Chinese loved it and were very impressed.

Now, with classes going on, many of them don’t seem to appreciate the fact that traditions are in place for a variety of reasons and even less of them (almost all students) feel the need to work at it. They don’t want to learn forms that look like the last one they learned, even though much of traditional kung fu has that. I remember when I got to learn lion dance how thrilled I was and what an honor it was to learn it. Nowadays asking someone to learn lion dance is like asking them to take on extra work it seems. As in any other class, there are the few that hold on to and want to learn more of the traditions, but that group is a lot smaller than I remember it being when I was training.

Has anyone else noticed this? If so, what do you feel the main root cause is? I have the following thoughts on it.

  1. We live in a disposable society. Nothing is long term anymore. From our appliances to our marriages, everything can be used, abused and replaced as needed at our whims.

  2. We live in McSociety. Everything, especially since the advent of the internet is available right now to satisfy your desires (carnal, informational, etc.)with no longer than a 5 second wait. People can’t wait in line for 30 seconds anymore, let alone wait a couple years to see the results of a good kung fu program.

  3. The lack of a “reason” to do kung fu. Most people seem to want to “do something” with their style. The older notions of self-defense seem less important today than ever (when’s the last time you needed to use it?). The lack of competitions to show off your style contribute to it. I remember we used to have at least one tournament a month we could go to. Nevermind it was dominated by Karate and TKD, we could go show our style and “do something” with what we learned. Then, yearly was the big national tournament (NACMAAF, later USAWKF) that you trained for and looked forward to all year long. These opportunities have nearly evaporated.

  4. Some of the reason I think are faults within the traditional system itself as well . Those can be rigidness of the teachers, the incredibly long training time, the mass of information to be absorbed, lack of ranking to show progress and so students can have something to reach for, the need for some teachers to feel they have some empire to protect, the tradition where the teacher is almost worshiped.

So as people who love their traditions and who want to see the growth of good solid kung fu, how can we overcome these obstacles? Is it even possible (or worth it) to try and retain these traditions, or (for the sake of survival) should we all become MMA teachers for fighting with a blend of forms that are more wushu oriented?

I don’t think putting an end to obsolescent thinking is bad.

But neither is continuing a cherished tradition!:slight_smile:

That is how society progresses and traditional teaching rarely did anything to uplift values associated with top notch training! Too much ‘secret’, ‘special’ training so why bother with dubious methods that will instill false values.

We are in the Mc Kungfu age so just enjoy what is useful and drop the rest and sadly traditional kungfu will go the way of the ‘lost’ skills but it will surely reformat itself and has done so into the acrobat and performance oriented wushu we see today! All is not lost, totally.
I am a former competitor and this has been happenning for the past 25 years.
My recent performance was at the USA Wushu 2007 Tournament and I was completerly disillusioned with some of the so called unbiased judging but it was a nice tournament! Why do I bother? I like it and it is fun.

tradition

those changes started happening over 35 years ago not 25 . particularly after the b.l. craze. l am in my 70s and saw it coming . l was telling my students years ago who are now in there 50s about the mcdonalds attitude. its not just prevalent in martial arts but everything in the western world in particular. l still teach in the old way and have decided that if they want sport they can go elsewhere. l have over the decades seen these changes and l decided if l had even 5 good students whod stick it out they will one day teach 5 and so on thats fine. l have also seen many flavours of the day come and go so it doesnt worry me that traditional arts will not be around . my students will and do work to improve what they do. and the jack of all trades and master of nones will pass like the do do bird into oblivion . tradition need not mean to not improve ones art . we were haveing these discussions before there was any internet and you are haveing them now so thats not changed . and we are still here you just may have trouble finding us.

I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese…

Chinese martial arts, like a lot of traditional martial arts, simply don’t have resonance with the youth today. TMA has become forms heavy, and flowery, and bogged down in mysticism and crap. TCMA has been castrated and emasculated. What was once the venue of “tough guys” (many gangsters, Diego will be thrilled to now read this thread) and very much about fighting has become the “art of scholars and monks” for “health”, “enlightenment” and granola eating :rolleyes:

What’s worse, is how many people supposedly doing TCMA have NO IDEA where it came from, what it was like in the old days and simply buy into the “feel good” PC crap being passed off as TCMA

Always, Forever and Ever…

Mantis = 16 styles and 1 overarching theory or a blend of 17 styles
Eagle Claw = The Joint Locks of Yue Fe mixed with the “wushu” of its day- Tan Tui
Choy Le Fut = Named after 3 masters…

It’s evolution baby- always been that way- it’ll continue like this forever. We made a new name for it- MMA.

The difference between now and then is people lack the patience to master a style before they mix. You gotta master 1 as a base before you can change things otherwise there’s no substance. (Even Ilkmfdzqu?Z mastered a style to set the basis for his beliefs)

in my area, its the lion dancing that keeps the chinese in the martial arts.

we have white crane, and yau gung mun, both of whom are world champion lion groups.

the chinese out here are more interested in learning how to use their gung fu from reputable sifu’s. in the mma type schools i see alot of ABC"S, but the ones from china still go for the traditional stuff.

i say, keep the traditional. don’t EVER get rid of it.

MMA is a sport, and who knows how long it will last?

Traditional gung fu has existed for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years…did i just overexaggerate that? LOL.

its people who love traditional who will help traditional survive.

and don’t forget, shaolin is also one of the older MMA type systems. nothing original comes from shaolin except for shaolin-nized martial arts from other styles.

i would love to see a choy lee fut version of shaolin.

and yes, if you want to survive, you must evolve…nothing wrong with that.

if i created a form today, it would be a modern expression of what came before. in other words, i evolved my gung fu by creating something based on my own understanding of my system.

To me, the tradition of any fighting art is fighting, and being the best fighters one can be at any stage of the game.
To go against that is going against tradition.

Martial Art = Art Of War=very True!

War = Fighting

In The Gangster World What Happens? Fighting!

Who Are The Better Teachers At Teaching You How To Fight?

Gangsters!!! Hahahaha!

I Love My Lineage!!!

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;831441]I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese…

Chinese martial arts, like a lot of traditional martial arts, simply don’t have resonance with the youth today. TMA has become forms heavy, and flowery, and bogged down in mysticism and crap. TCMA has been castrated and emasculated. What was once the venue of “tough guys” (many gangsters, Diego will be thrilled to now read this thread) and very much about fighting has become the “art of scholars and monks” for “health”, “enlightenment” and granola eating :rolleyes:

What’s worse, is how many people supposedly doing TCMA have NO IDEA where it came from, what it was like in the old days and simply buy into the “feel good” PC crap being passed off as TCMA[/QUOTE]
you’re weird and think about me way too much…i’m just trying to find out about the guy who taught my teacher…suppossedly he was gangster and no one seems to know anything about him…doesn’t take a fisherman to tell you that’s fishy

**** are you doing and why are you mentioning me?

[QUOTE=hskwarrior;831473]Martial Art = Art Of War=very True!

War = Fighting

In The Gangster World What Happens? Fighting!

Who Are The Better Teachers At Teaching You How To Fight?

Gangsters!!! Hahahaha!

I Love My Lineage!!![/QUOTE]

Actually, trained fighters are the bets teachers, they fight and have fought other trained fighters, not some guys on the street with unknown skill level.

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;831496]Actually, trained fighters are the bets teachers, they fight and have fought other trained fighters, not some guys on the street with unknown skill level.[/QUOTE]

ah but there are no trained kung fu fighters, lol what is a kung fu fighter?

i’ll take clf over judo anywday…clf has weapon sets, judo has joint locks…clf fighter vs judo fighter= clf guy just cut off judo mans hand before he grabs it:D

what is a kung fu fighter?

[QUOTE=diego;831497]ah but there are no trained kung fu fighters, lol what is a kung fu fighter?[/QUOTE]

very good question, we all know what a MT fighter is, a Judoka, a boxer, etc, what is a kung fu fighter?

eh.. nowadays everyone is lazy.. race aside..

there are lot of Chinese kids ( i know them personally) who dont care about anything.. kung fu, scholastics, what have you.They are just becoming more and more americanized (in a bad way). their chinese sucks, they live with their “significant others” rather than preserving their family name or honor.. its just becoming more common as people get out of their enclaves…

but as for MA…

well doesn’t matter where you go.. traditional martials have gone down the tube- and moreso in certain cities than others (such as LA vs New York) LA is in the trash heap except for like 2 schools- that one run by Shaolin monks up in Rosemead, and Shaolin lomita.. Forget the rest.. I visited them and well- they suck..

even a lot of wushu schools get kids who don’t want to practice. (acutally modern wushu training -if done properly is brutal, and no one wants to do it) wushu schools dont have much attendance either. (for comparison)..

I think the critics of traditional martial arts are correct though in some respects- like when are you ever really going to use it?
Someone could just come up and tase the crap out of you.. or shoot you (like in East LA or Compton) and when are you really going to whip out a shuang dao and kick someone’s ass???

its like Indiana Jones where the guy gets the sword out and Indy just shoots him..

however its also a culture thing as well (as you pointed out).. people are simply in a fast food world. wushu/kung fu/ what have you takes a long time to get good at, and you have to be going to a good school..

I think a lot of teachers also damage the art as well. They have big heads, crazed and frenzied about how cool it is that they hurt someone once, talk like gurus, divert their mythical powers to sentient beings, act macho, and some go as far as disrespecting students…

how then can the art survive?

Although i think several grandmasters are no better. They leave their systems to stupid westerners who have no moral code or honor, as IF it will survive some whack job’s inheritance. Then no one wants to learn, or go.

There is also the problem of teachers who are in it for the money. The multiple belts, tests that you have to repeat a million times, teachers that instill fear in students over messing up (met several of those). Even some schools where the rivalry is so over the top they beat people up (attended one of those).

Or the “wait 20 years and I’ll show you what this move is for” - my favorite line. “we don’t teach that until you are a 3rd degree black belt.” If I asked you should show me as a paying customer who has questions.

The more weirdos who teach the less likely it is the art itself will survive (as a whole). And the more people who are born who just get what they want immediately the more likely all Chinese martial arts will go by the wayside (wushu/traditional what have you)…

i agree 100 zhangxihuan you said evrything i was thinking.

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;831441]I hate to break it to you, but the typical Chinese youth today, if he is interested in martial arts at all, is interested in Muay Thai, San Da, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Mixed Martial Arts. I have TONS of Chinese in my school, also a healthy dose of Koreans and Japanese…

[/QUOTE]

yeah i totally agree

think about it

what is exotic and exciting for your average western napoleon dynamite type

to a chinese kid would simply be something they have had within there culture for ages
its something theyre grandparents may have done

u never see westerners showing the same passion they show for kung fu
for western fencing on such a huge scale do you

[QUOTE=diego;831498]i’ll take clf over judo anywday…clf has weapon sets, judo has joint locks…clf fighter vs judo fighter= clf guy just cut off judo mans hand before he grabs it:D

what is a kung fu fighter?[/QUOTE]

yeah but it doesnt look like most of the weapon sets teach you much anyway

so a judo guy would probably be just as proficient with a blade or spear as you