In the past number of years, we’ve seen the explosion of MMA. I think in many ways that’s a good thing. After all, it did help to expose all the myths about one touch killing methods and whatever. But there is still a lot of value in the traditional arts if it’s learned properly. And that’s the key. There are so many lousy schools out there just teaching forms, unrealistic applications, and little to no sparring, it has really ruined the reputation of traditional martial arts. And that’s really sad because if taught properly, the traditional styles hold up very well. The problem is that so many teachers out there only have a very superficial knowledge of the art that they’re teaching, they themselves don’t even understand the applications. So how the hell can these people be teaching? It’s the blind leading the blind. Of course the public has become aware of this and traditional schools are dwindling down all the time. It seems that the only schools that have the money and facilities are the MMA schools. They’ve got huge gyms with rings, cages, tons of space, usually with a weight room also. Whereas the traditional schools are usually taught in some tiny unit in a strip mall beside a pizza joint or a convenience store. Is it just that the reputation has been ruined so badly with so many lousy instructors that even if some good ones come along, there’s no chance? I mean there are good teachers out there. I’m lucky to have one. But then again, he also teaches out of a small industrial unit and sometimes I go to his house and train in his basement. That’s just the way it is, but I’d like to see a comeback of the traditional arts. I fear that’s just wishful thinking though.
Taditional Martial Arts have one thing going for them that the MMA schools don’t.
Reputation. Most MMA fans, and schools play up to the big, macho, crewcut, or shaved head, goatee,tapout shirt,tribal tattooed fashion. Yep, MMA FASHION!
And along with that is macho attitude, stress on the beatdown, etc.
not all, as not every MMA school has this attitude-but the media hypes it, so
if that’s what they hype, that’s what the public buys into.
Eventually, people grow tired of that attitude. It isn’t healthy for children, and once parents see the change in youth attitudes(parent are the last to notice)
they will make an exodus from many MMA schools.
And what do they want?
What do parents want for their kids?
What do adults want for themselves?
Discipline, Self-discipline, self-control, self-confidense, in a healthy enviornment.
Traditional schools provide all of this, and that is a huge selling point.
The traditional schools that have a MMA type of curricullum, providing good, real skills, along with the traditional training in a strong, healthy, enviornment, will survive. The basement schools, and schools that are run part-time, while the Sifu has a day job, will survive.
Traditional schools will always survive.
MMA is an evolution of a teaching method, and will be here to stay,
perhaps not in its present incarnation, but evolution is continuous.
ex-Lee Koon Hung ran a traditional Choy Li Fut school. All students started with the basic training syllabus.
After that, they had the option of staying in traditional CLF, or going into full contact fighting. He had the largest CLF school in HK.
Not a bad model.
I guess I am no longer surprised when I see blatant ignorance on this board
You know why people flock to MMA schools? The see RESULTS. They see people get in real shape, learn how to actually use their techniques, see progress. Even if they don’t compete they see thier classmates in matches using the techniques they are taught in class for real
Compare that to the average TMA place where you frequently won’t break a sweat. There is much TALK about fighting, but very little actual fighting. There are references to how if you actualy did a technique how it might work, but no practical demonstration.
In the typical TMA place, questions are defered by talk about “higher levels” or “when you advance” or “secrets” or “indoor” or similar CRAP, yes CRAP…
TMA isn’t dying because there clearly are people who want to buy into fantasy and are willing to suspend rational thought to participate. I mean, you see tons of it on this board pretty much every day
I agree and dissagree. I think that might be the norm, but only because Martial Arts is so huge, that there are just so many schools.
Just as if you ask anyone where to get a hamburger, they will say McDonalds, or Burger King, or Wendy’s.
Now, ask them where to get a really good hamburger, and you will get a different answer.
I do believe the trend will be that more and more schools will be either combining the MMA mindset, or at least offerring it in addition to their regular curriculum.
The Gracies are already marketing a modified BJJ curriculum that is being “Sold” in the industry magazines, to add into your curriculum, just as they do with Krav Maga,Cardio Kickboxing, Stranger Danger, and Tai-Chi. Heck, ever since Body For Life came out, schools are doing their own version of that, so why would MMA be any different?
Don’t think for a minute that there won’t be McMMA.
Sure, there will always be stright up MMA gyms, but I seriously doubt that they will completely replace all the TMA schools.
Thre is plenty of room for both.
Time will tell.
Prediction: They will have MMA costumes next to the ninja costumes in Wallmart.
-and THIS
http://www.costumzee.com/tag/ufc/
http://halloween-costumes.spirithalloween.com/spirithalloween/Ufc
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=111632251
see? It’s already started.
ptthhhpppp!
In many martial arts there is lots of artsy flash and theatrics that are non functional to the martial part of the art. If you ignore the theatrics you tend to see results faster.
To start with no one really agrees what “Traditional Martial Arts” is. I’ve read countless argument here about this lineage and that lineage…all claiming to be the true traditonal way.
I think with the cultural revolution any true authentic traditional ways have been lost. All we can do is piece together what we have in the best possible manner and go from there.
i think fake kung fu is dying real kung fu is doing same as before maybe even better. just because you dont see good kung fu on youtube or yellowpages doesnt mean its dying.
just think… several generations from now, what was once deemed non-traditional today, will be the [b]new[/b] tradition of the morrow…
I think there’s a problem with how people view traditional arts. If there’s a traditional school that emphasizes lots of practical fighting, sparring, heavy bag work, ground work, etc, then they call it an MMA-style school. That’s simply not true. A truly traditional school will include all those things. The problem is most so-called traditional schools are just money-makers selling people karate kid “wax on, wax off” stuff. And it’s gotten to the point where people associate that with traditional martial arts. Now the majority of schools seem to be like that, but the art itself still holds up as well as ever. The problem is that there’s almost no one who teaches it properly so the public perception is really bad. I guess the point I was trying to make is that it’s gone downhill so badly that even if a whole ton of traditional schools started changing the way they do things, is it too late to make a difference?
i wish u r allowed to challenge schools but today they can call the police on u.
why do people worry about kung fu being less popular. who cares
“I guess the point I was trying to make is that it’s gone downhill so badly that even if a whole ton of traditional schools started changing the way they do things, is it too late to make a difference?”
does it matter?
Do you think traditional Gung-Gu instructors chose Gung-Fu because everyone else was doing it?
When I started, NOBODY was doing it. The only written material was in Bruce Tegner’s Complete Book of Karate-and that was about four pages.
Bruce Lee was the first time most non-Asians even heard of Gung-Fu.
Traditional schools-for the most part, are here because we love what we do.
There will always be people who love TMA. There will always be Traditional Schools.
…and there will always be McKwoons, LARPERS, wannabes,toughguys,fighters, dancers,and everything in between.
Not a big deal.
Is There Any Hope For Traditional Martial Arts
[SIZE=“6”][SIZE=“7”][/SIZE][/SIZE]
Dung San Joi Hei (Sing)
there will always be hope where there are people who truly believe in what they do. It’s like the “what have you seen..” thread. Those that know, know.
Any art can claim to be traditional. I thought I was upholding a “great tradition”
by adhering to the rigid strictures of the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu I studied back in the 80’s, only to find out later that that particular style was only 50 or so years old.
I’ve recently seen a famed McDojo that teaches more respect than you would expect from any kind of belt store- even though their techniques are…well pretty sloppy. (TKD-BTW)
My point is, it’s the spirit that you practice with that upholds the tradition and gives respect to those that came before you.
And that’s the Warrior’s Tradition. Wude, Mo Duk, The Bushido Code- whatever you wanna call it.
it all takes time and patience
I can assure you that as a praticioner of Traditional Kung Fu for many years now that you realize when you do blind folded chi-sao and other drills without using your eyes that you truly have gotten it. I do firmly believe that although I may not fare well in a ring with MMA fighter to some degree that if there ever came a time that I was in danger that my instincts would be able to assist me to pull of a technique that would help me in some form. Plus, on the other hand the confidence that I have achieved in my own daily interactions help me be in more control on a daily basis that keeps me out of any situations that would jeopardize my health.
[QUOTE=jedco77;892856]I can assure you that as a praticioner of Traditional Kung Fu for many years now that you realize when you do blind folded chi-sao and other drills without using your eyes that you truly have gotten it. .[/QUOTE]
I wouldn’t go quite that far. Blindfolded chi-sao is taught to beginners, in most Wing Chun schools as a developmental tool. It is a learning aid, not an accomplishment.
You are not a Jedi yet, young Padawan.
Christ, David. You may be right. (sigh)
I think the whole concept of “traditional” is a trap; it is first and foremost an ill-defined qualifier: what constitutes traditional? does a style have to be practiced unaltered for a certain amount of time for it to qualify as such? 10 years? 50? 100? 1,000? and is such a thing really possible? or even desirable? I mean, the “art” has to suit the need - the need of the practitioner, of the cultural milieu and, most importantly, of the moment of the actual encounter; “traditional” Ch’an Budhism would tell you in a heartbeat to forget the past, the now is all - a favorite image is Hui Neng, the Sixth Patriarch of Zen, shown cutting up the Buddhist sutras…not to say that the past should be ignored, but it should not be artificially maintained either…
I would argue that many people see 'traditional" as synonymous with “unaltered”; people use the argument that it was obviously “good enough for the ‘old masters’ - who are we to argue with them?” but what is it that we are really trying to preserve? something utilitarian, or our own sense of security because we train a 1,000 year-old art, and therefore feel we are in “good company”?
human nature: we love a good story; we want to have the tales of the old timers as a touchstone to give us a sense of continuity - the reality of life is chaos and uncertainty and ultimately death; we want to feel like, in life, we are doing something worthwhile, not wasting our time; what better way to ensure the relevance of what we do than be affiliating with a tradition?
but notice, that in warfare, while tradition is respected, it is certainly not adhered to blindly; so yes, at West Point they may study the tactics used at Thermopyle (sp?), and respect them both in context and in terms of what principles may be applicable to modern warfare; but they don’t eschew the realities of modern combat either; likewise, to argue over minute details of a “traditional” form / kata, either in terms of execution or preservation, is really silly; but people do it…mainly because they can, of course - maybe there is a reason tha the people who train live / under pressure cannot afford the luxury of debating the nuance of where the distal MCP joint of the third finger should be during morning versus evening practice? not that it may not be a valuable debate, but in the appropriate context…
qigong is another area rife w/this - 1000 years ago, I don’t care how good of an empirical knowledge the Chinese had about the human body (and certainly it is not hard to argue that Chinese medicine at the time was “better” than European medicine - but Arabic medicine was probably on par, if not better…), when you move into a biomedical model, it blows away a lot of so-called TCM (the analogy is that you used to have protracted arguments between neurologists about diagnoses based on clinical signs - now they look at the MRI for the site of the lesion); if it didn’t why is it the dominant form of medicine on the planet (hint: it works…); not to say there aren’t flaws, but overall, big picture is what we’re talking about; and certainly, medicine learns from it’s “traditional” past: like the use of leeches and maggots in contemporary wound care - but in context of biomedical principles; so as far as qigong, we can understand the mechanisms and effects in context of contemporary anatomy and physiology, and can use this understanding accordingly;
back to TCMA: 500 years ago, you often didn’t know what your “neighbor” 100 miles away was doing - travel was much less convenient then, and so the chance to travel was not for everyone - those who did were seen as remarkable - Marco Polo was the exception then - now, no big deal; so a lot of “traditional” was based on the fact that if you lived in a village in China that practiced a certain style of MA, the rate of evolution was limited to who traveled outside of that village to accumulate knowledge, or who passed through it and disseminated it; add onto that the Chinese cultural baggage (Confuciust) of deference to antiquity as a means of legitimization (as opposed to innovation), and this creates an environment that is anti-change; as such, “tradition” is endemic to the cultural climate;
the world is different now; conflation of time and space due to technological innovation is a reality that will not go away; as such, the rate at which MA evolves is different, measured in years, not centuries; MMA as a construct is the logical outcome of ~50 years of American TMA-ists trying to fit into the mold of “one style forever” and “don’t be a jack-of-all-trades” that probably has more to do with “eastern”-based notions of self cultivation than anything else (e.g. - the ideal that you pick one vehicle - MA, ikebana, tea, calligraphy, zen - and use that as a means of self-discovery / actualization / transcendence); it has nothing to do with actual development of well-rounded fighting skill, which, as we clearly see now, it is possible to achieve in terms of multiple skill sets: weapons, stand-up, grappling; what’s more, we have “discovered” a way to live pressure-test arts in a way that approximates “reality” more closely than has been the case for some time; also, 500 years ago, life was much more fleeting: American culture is largely insulated from the proximity of death: medicine / public health, non-existent threat of invasion - we take “life” for granted more than at any time in the history - so the idea of “fighting for your life” is alien to the majority of people (not everyone, of course - certainly there are examples of areas in the US where this is not the case at all - but they are the exception, not the norm)
so again, first define “traditional” (which, honestly, in context of MA, you really can’t); second, get over it - if you study a so-called “traditional art”, don’t let your intelligence / ability to analyze clearly become a victim of blind adherence / deference to past “authorities”; if you want to agonize of details of kata, that’s fine, nothing wrong with that at all! but don’t kid yourself that this sort of activity has minimal relevance to applied combat (and as for the “well, this worked for the ‘old masters’”, I would concede it, as long as you realize that if everybody is doing it, then you have a different context); similarly, if you practice an art that has “internal” training, go for it - and then go test yourself against an MMA guy who has trained for the same amount of time and see how it holds up; also a typical TCMA strategy, when efficacy for combat is questioned, the whole, “oh, but our art is not just for fighting” comes up - that’s fine, but doesn’t answer the question…of course, in the long run, you may have fewer injuries and live longer / be healthier practicing taiji than the guy who does MMA (maybe, not necessarily though…) but that’s a different argument anyway;
do you want to spend 40 years finding the “secrets” of the past? or live in the reality of the now? “traditional” practice can afford one the opportunity to do both, it’s a question of how you approach it…
i think that the MMA craze going on right now is a faze that the M/A world is going through. I am not knocking down MMA by no means, i just think that its popularity will fade out eventually. just my 2 cents
honestly I dont give a schitt…
call it what u want traditional,contempoary,mma,bullshido whatthefackever…
some people always have something to say,think they know it all…i know many,many people that train their chosen martial art,they live a happy life,they could defend themselfs…and thats it who cares what a couple of ego driven guys chat on the boards..the forums are not the world..they just forums which are a good thing but they dont represent the majority of martial artists in the world I know too many who dont even use the net…mma is a good thing … for those who wanna compete or get in shape…others wanna learn to defend themselfs,they spar at their schools some not..etc who cares… i dont know why people still make a fuzz about it…
