Tradition is What?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
21

Vash,
also I can’t really comment on the “uniform” for CMA practicioners, we don’t really have a Gi problem so to speak. Our uniform fot those who still dont know is traditional chinese clothing, cause thats what people used to train in back then. You’ll find kungfu schools tending to have a T-shirt/Tank Top, and sweat pants type of vibe, which is really comfortable I might add, so I have no problem with it. and you will also find the traditional chinese clothes that are referred to as “silk pajamas” by some :cool:, also comfortable , but , I feel wierd as a black man walking among chinese dressed like that if i’m in public :confused: . j/k.
Anyways I think Gi’s are cool but hey hthats just my opinion and I’ve never worn one.

Another Question 4 u :

If you want to omit so much of the japanese culture from your karate why not just do american kickboxing? or do you really like forms that much?

22

KG:

. . . why not call it “Vash’s combative concepts” or whatever

I think I would make an obvious name change, but nothing drastic. Probably along the lines of Isshinryu Boxing or some such. As my opinion stands now, most of the Japanese linguistic and cultural elements I’d probably drop, as they do nothing for the martial learning. I’m not of the mind to start my own style. Aside from the cultural things, I’d only be changing the curriculum and training methods. Natural progression of a combative art, or art in general 'swhat I think.

For character building, the workout itself should do for discipline and perserverance what the cultural aspects are (I guess) intended to do. I’m not of the mind of making whomever I work out with a well-disciplined fighter. That’s up to the practitioner.

ST107:

Why not do American Kickboxing? Well, I’m not as durable as most of those guys for one. :eek: Besides, I like the fluidity and adaptability of Isshinryu. Nothing really which can’t be applied, given the right circumstances.

Please remember, these are the words of a man on the gimp.
Not currently the most dilligent of training men in the world.

23

On second thought, I may just start my own style . . . on the INTERNET! I shall be Dai Soke/Da Shifu of Isshindo Saolim Gong Fu! It has it’s roots in the ancient art of Forum-Fu!

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Vash.

For me tradition is very important, it helps me understand a lot of things.

If you really want to understand something away from your culture you need to get involved into the tradition and culture of what you are studying.

I used to think that the I-Dan ranking system was a bunch of crappola, till I met and got to know the japanese culture.

Same thing with the inner door students in CMA, it totally makes sense when seen in context with the culture.

Same way with learning a foreign language, you can spend a few years at Uni learning it. First time you are in a native environment and need to rely on it you will scratch your head and curse your inability to use it.

Tradition is important as it is part of everything that we do, may it be carving a thanksgiving turkey, or whatever.

Take the tradition away and all you got left is a physical action (ergo carving a turkey), but you lost the “why” of it.

So if I as a non-US guy want to understand thanksgiving I need to study the culture and history behind it.
If I don’t do that I will follow a custom I don’t understand and the action has lost it’s true meaning.

I got a completely different view on CMA & JMA after having lived in asia for a few years.

Just rambling.

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Martial Arts as Multicultural Phenomena

LC:

Good point.

But, for me, just because I would not practice certain aspects of the culture from which my martial art came, does not mean I will lack a fundamental understanding of the art. How could it? There are only so many ways to punch, to kick.

I do not understand how a culture which produces a martial art has the only way of “truly” understanding said art. If I practice an art which originated in Okinawa using American cultural aspects such as no Gi, no belts, minimum of Japanese lexicon, aside from the culture, what have I lost? I still have the kata.

To find my meaning while this virus is still staring at me from my computer, I will site the Okinawan martial artists who developed Toudi. The had an indiginous art, and it was molded with certain styles of Chinese Kung Fu. Some of these early masters went to China to study, yet when they returned to Okinawa, they taught in an Okinawan cultural fashion. H. Now, did they lose something of the art? Yeah, it was different, adapted to fit there understanding of fighting.. It is not that they knew any more or les than the Chinese martial artists, they just went about it in a different way.

How is that any different from a modern-day martial artist teaching his style in a non-Japanese fashion?

Just a few morning thoughts. Breakfast time.

26

Vash.

To a certain degree you are right.

But those okinawans did NOT claim to teach a Chinese MA, the same way Funakoshi did not claim to teach an okinawan art.

Certain aspects and insights will always be lost when an art is transplanted into a new surrounding, which will naturally differ depending on the new location/culture.

Simply look at the debates if asian MA are involved or not with religion.
Many japanese practice BOTH buddhist & shinto rituals and get married in a “christian” ceremony and it is not a problem or contradiction of either faith for them.

If you transplant a JMA into another setting call it kempo or similar to differentiate it from the source.
Example:
Shorinshi Kempo is bassically shaolin kungfu with “religious” & japanese trappings(Dogi, Ranks, etc). Why is it called a religion, because they can get a tax-break because of it. :wink:

Is it Shaolin Kung Fu no not any longer, is it a JMA no it isn’t.

Japanese use “kempo” do identify arts that still acknowledge their chinese roots, many JMA used to be kempo-arts.

Hence, lets say Chen Tai Ji Quan is often refered to as Tai Kyoku Kempo, whereas Tai Kyoku Ken is often used to refer to “health” orientated or japanised flavours of Tai Ji Quan.

A friend of mine was told that his art qualified as Koryu art as they still taught the martial application, even though it was a Chinese MA.

Confused yet??

Even most japanese can’t understand it either as they have lost/forgotten a lot of traditions and roots.

As for not truly understanding an “art”, or similar.

I will NEVER understand what it means to be an American, the same way you will NEVER understand what it means to be british, muslim or whatever.

There are aspects to anything you cannot teach or learn, you can try to understand them but you will never truly know or be part of them.

You can live for 50 or 60 years in China and some aspects of chinese life and culture will always evade you.

Rant over.

27

Forgot one example:

Tell a Chinese or Japanese to use Qi or Ki during an IMA lesson and he will never think twice or question what it is or if it even exists.

The concept is an integral part of their culture, the same way I doubt that you will see many Japanese issue a Ki-Ai the same way it is done in US competitions.

The Ki-Ai is a perfect example of a totally misunderstood concept by most westerners that practice JMA, in reality it is closer to CMA and internal methods.

Cheers.

28

Gotcha.

Were I to teach (and again, thankfully I am too young and a bit too crippled) I would be claiming to teach an Okinawan-based art, not a purely Okinawan thing.

It’s evolution, baby, Yeah!

29

Vash,
Although LC did a pretty good job commenting on your thoughts. I’d like to add some of my own thoughts on this subject.

just because I would not practice certain aspects of the culture from which my martial art came, does not mean I will lack a fundamental understanding of the art. How could it? There are only so many ways to punch, to kick.

You are right, the body only moves in so many ways. And proper biomechanics can only be taught in one fashion. I do however feel strongly that there are many cultural implications in terms of why something is taught a certain way as well as in terms of attitude/behavior during combat.

You may know the outer forms (in terms of kata and punching & kicking) but may loose something in the ‘translation’. I think evolution of an art is fine (although I may not agree with most of what I’ve seen as evolution), but make sure you distinguish it from the “original”…

Some of these early masters went to China to study, yet when they returned to Okinawa, they taught in an Okinawan cultural fashion

Remember that the Okinawan Islands were heavily influenced by the Chinese. When the the Chinese arts (Kenfat) were transplanted to the Ryukyu archipelago the Chinese influence were much stronger than the Japanese… Having said that, the gi and the Japanese attitude toward training were introduced after the Meiji restoration when the attitude of “Yamato damashii” (Japanese spirit) was very strong. So these things were not originally introduced by the Okinawan people.

KG

30

KG:

Again, very thought provoking. Here’s some thought that got provoked (I’m a poet, didn’t know it)

What aspects of the kata, the art in general, would I be losing by not incorporating the Japanese/Okinawan influences into my teaching? Being an extreme novice here, with only 3 years in this art, I seem to be at a loss as to the behavioral influences the culture had on the art.

As an aside, would it be closer to the Okinawan roots to train as the Okinawans did, ie no formal wear, ranking, et al? Or would that be reverting to the time before the founding of Isshinryu, therefore nullifying the whole get-back-to-the-origin idea?

D@mn interesting conversation, if I say so myself. Thanks to the participants. Let’s keep this stuff up.

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ttt

!

32

Fudge it All.

I realize now that I am beyond style, beyond substance, beyond beyondness, man. It’s like, I’m whoah. Or something like that.

My being a gimp has nothing to do with this whole “I’m the sh!t” idea, anyway. My dog told me.

33

Vash, I cant understand your slangs what do you mean you’re a gimp?

34

Why I’m So Great . . .

Or not.

Being a gimp means being crippled. Or just having an attachment to b!tching.

On to today’s deep thoughts:

Just finished reading the Shaolin special. Pretty neat. Got me thinking.

When a martial art is being used as a vehicle of cultural preservation, does it cross the line of martial art and become a cultural art?

In Shaolin, kung fu is used as a vehicle to “delve into . . . personal demons and attachments to root out the source of ignorance, fear, and greed.” However, the martial art is only one aspect of Shaolin. Therefore, removal of any of the other aspects of Shaolin would make it not-Shaolin. The martial art, though, would remain as effective. But, I am confusing myself.

In the Shaolin example, removal of certain spiritual aspects would negate the Shaolin portion of the art. But, what if the same adherence to cultural/discipline is applied to an art whose “goal,” if martial arts can be said to have this (and I do. Self-defense, fighting, whatever the correct term is), is self-preservation? Yes, martial arts can lead to self-discipline, improved character, the basic betterment of the practitioner. But, so can organized sports.

So, if a practitioner removes the cultural aspects of an art, yet preserves everything “functional” of said art, what is the end product? A deformed art?

Thinking out loud.

35

Technique and Culture . . .

When, in the context of martial arts, the term “traditional” is mentioned, what do you think of? Classes held in a manner very similar to the art’s country of origin, or the training regimines, technical base?

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Originally posted by Kempo Guy
[B]Vash,

Thanks for the kudos. I had a few days to think about my response… :wink:

blooming lotus,
Thanks. I agree with you completely! I also spent some time in Asia studying MA (primarily Japan) and also went to Taiwan on a couple of occasions to train in Neijia.

One of the primary reasons for me taking up the practice of traditional Japanese MA was based on my interest in Hoplology, the study of the evolution and development of human combative behavior.

BTW, where in China are staying? I’ll be going over to Shanghai in January for a short trip.

Sorry for the long post everyone!
KG [/B]

dude. that is very cool , but excuse naivety here,…what exactly is Neijia???
and while we are here hopology hey…isnt that what we all are studying!?! I am currently in Anhui, Hhefei to be specific, Im not sure if either of us will have time but ??? maybe we could meet in Shanghai for a green tea, a spar and a rave..
:wink: :smiley: ..dude…you’ll be here for new year! if I dont catch you, have fun;)

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neija is the internal arts. Like Pakua

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blooming lotus,

As Kristoffer stated, Neijia refers to the “Chinese internal MA”, eg Tai Ji, Xing Yi and Ba Gua.

And yes, Hoplology is what many of us are studying. Having said that I don’t think most modern MA (or perhaps it’s the way MA is taught these days) would fall under the category of “combative systems”; and it neglects the study of human combative behavior.

I spent the Chinese new years two years ago in Taiwan and in Korea, which was a pretty cool experience. I’ve had the opportunity to celebrate Chinese new years in Japan on many occasions as well.

Vash,

When, in the context of martial arts, the term “traditional” is mentioned, what do you think of? Classes held in a manner very similar to the art’s country of origin, or the training regimines, technical base?

Yes, yes and yes…

Just kidding, sort of… :rolleyes:
When the word “traditional” is used I think of all these things, of course it will depend largely on the context in which it is spoken. And I think many people will conjure up images of Karateka lined up performing one kata after another and practicing prearranged sparring.

If you are referring to a Koryu bugei then perhaps all of the above may be applicable. However more modern forms of combatives may still adhere to all these traditions while being aware of the dangers in adhering too strongly to tradition (in the sense that you may eventually be practicing a “dead art”).

I can think of a couple of “traditional” bugei arts that allow the individual teachers some flexibility in how the principles of these arts are taught, i.e. making them applicable to modern day conflicts.

It really comes down to how the principles of the individual arts are passed down from teacher to student whether it is in the form of kata and/or kuden (oral teaching). This does not exclude “modern arts” such as Karate and Judo. Also, reigi (etiquette) imho is of utmost importance. This in many ways is what seperates a MA from just an “empty form” of pugilism, and often carries with it philosphies of the founders (whether it’s based on Taoism, Shinto, Buddhism, Confucianism etc.).

I’m not sure if this is coherent at all… :confused: so I’ll get off my soapbox and retire for the evening. :smiley:

KG

39

On Morallity, Virtue Through MA . . .

Here’s another thought.

I’ve heard it said often that one of the key components of MA training must be virtue, good heartedness, morallity, et al. If these are left out, one is only training killing machines.

For martial training to produce a a “killing machine,” devoid or basic human and cultural morallity, wouldn’t the student need to be raised in a moral/cultural vacuum? After all, the good part of people with the heart to go through martial arts training are of . . . decent character. There are some A-Holes, as in all things. But, generally, a teacher who really cared to could root these students from the school.

Also, on an art retaining the philosophies of the founder/s. If one is training in the art for cultural/historical preservation, I can see this as important. But, in terms of martial applicability, it is rather useless.

However, this is not to say that a teacher should teach in an imoral fashion or with a dangerous intent, it just shouldn’t be a inherent part of the art.

But again, my arguments stem from a need for martial applicablity and not goals shared by others in the arts.

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  1. Do you/your school use the dress of whichever culture birthed your art?

  2. Do you/your school use the ‘jargon’ of said culture when identifying actions, techniques, et al?

I answer yes to both of these. No, another question, if yes . . .
why?

  1. Hmm, sort of. We wear just tshirts and lightweight black gusseted pants, but we also wear feiyue-style shoes, and we’re getting “sparring jackets.”

  2. We tend to use the terms in mandarin alongside their english translations. So, we might refer to a form either as Si Mien Quan or Four Gates (Fist).

  3. I dunno, seems like the appropriate training gear. It’s not our tradition to wear a heavy gi-like thing, anyway.