I’ve been thinking about this since David Ross’s thread about San Shou. There he said that if a student wished to learn to fight, his Sifu would teach them San Shou.
However, is this a statement about the effectiveness of San Shou, or a statement about how people learn? If a student comes to a school expressing their sole interest is fighting, do they want to spend time on stepping drills, internal forms and spear fighting? Do they feel that learning the 8 drunken immortals form will allow them to win a bar fight?
While those of us who do traditional CMA will state (probably rightly) that in the long run these things will make you a far better fighter, will someone who wants to learn to fight appreciate this immediately?
However, do we devalue our arts and heritage if we tailor our training to pander to these people? One of my Sifu’s once told a fairly senior student that if he didn’t want to do forms anymore then it was probably the wrong school for him and he should seriously think about finding somewhere else to train! How many professional Sifu would be this blunt to a student?
His rationale was that if you train them just to fight then you get a certain type of student. He felt that if they weren’t “invested” in the style, then they felt no alliegance to it and would eventually get bored and drift off. Conversely, the students who are interested in the art side will be driven off by endless fighting training. Indeed, one of his top guys was running some classes and decided everyone needed to be fitter and do lots more San Da. He lost nearly 20 students over the next 6 months!
Personally I feel that around a 60/40 mix of forms and San Da is best.
What do you guys feel?
Ben Gash.
IME & IMO many join a MA school in order to learn to fight, enter comps and to learn SD, NOT to learn the art/style/system.
San Shou in my style comes after we are trained in Tui Shou, this has nothing to with the same named competition format.
If you want to learn a certain MA style/system than there is a road you need to progress along, which will result in fighting skills if you study well.
My Sifu has trained people that won trophies, if you ask him what he teaches he will say I teach TJQ, he won’t claim to teach fighting, SD or anything else.
I think a student needs to have the same mindset to study a style/system and should not set goals like SD, fighting ability or simialr as this will result in reduced quality training.
Just my thoughts.
I think a student needs to have the same mindset to study a style/system and should not set goals like SD, fighting ability or simialr as this will result in reduced quality training.
I disagree. Having goals helps keep me motivated. Its important to know why you’re training.
If the reason you’re training is because you find it interesting, and you don’t have any other goals, then that’s fine.
But saying that people having goals for their training reduces the quality of their training is ridiculous. In many cases it makes them train harder. It is up to the teacher and the student to make sure that no part of the training is neglected.
Re: Training to fight and fighting to train.
Originally posted by Ben Gash
His rationale was that if you train them just to fight then you get a certain type of student. He felt that if they weren’t “invested” in the style, then they felt no alliegance to it and would eventually get bored and drift off. Conversely, the students who are interested in the art side will be driven off by endless fighting training
I agree. If students don’t like the philosophy of the school, then they should find a school that has the philosophy (ingredients) that they want.
I consider it a privilege to train with my Sifu, not a right.
As far as ‘learning to fight’ … In my view it is one of those paradoxes of kung fu that, if learning to fight is the primary goal of a student, compared to mastering the art, then the student will progress well in the short term but will ultimately not achieve as high a level of fighting ability as they have the potential, or opportunity to. Fighting ability comes part and parcel with mastery of the art.
As far as ‘learning to fight’ … In my view it is one of those paradoxes of kung fu that, if learning to fight is the primary goal of a student, compared to mastering the art, then the student will progress well in the short term but will ultimately not achieve as high a level of fighting ability as they have the potential, or opportunity to. Fighting ability comes part and parcel with mastery of the art.
I can see how this could happen, but I don’t think its a given, and it would depend on the student.
In fact I would say that this isn’t true for most people.
Are you learning kunk fu or are you learning to fight?
Is the point that you want really nice forms or do u want to learn to fight?
they are not mutually exclusive
Scotty1.
The goals you set should not be SD, or fighting ability, but rather to master aspect X or Y.
Goals are important, but more is setting the right goals.
Fu Pau.
In full agreement.
Liokault.
There is more to Kung Fu than simply forms or fighting ability.
IMHO, you can’t have one without the other.
Cheers.
I will be starting another thread soon, that will go more ito details of training and what it takes to master MA.
Should be fun watching the factions clash.
they are not mutually exclusive
They are not indeed but they can be. I know lots of guys who train with us that have no intention on developing fighting skills but are happy with gaining “tai chi” skills.
If you spend 40 percent of your time on form are you getting 40 percent better at fighting or are you getting 40 percent better at doing form?
Liokault.
Why do think that “fighting” skills and “tai chi” skills are different?
What’s does your kwoon teach “fighting” or “tai chi”?
I got the feeling before and it is getting stronger that somehow something doesn’t quit mesh at your kwoon.
No offense intented but see questions above.
The goals you set should not be SD, or fighting ability, but rather to master aspect X or Y.
Mastering aspect X or Y is a necessary part of the wider goal of increasing fighting ability, and that is what is in my mind when I’m concentraing on one particular aspect.
Maybe if YOU thought too much about YOUR fighting ability YOU would neglect important aspects of YOUR training.
But I, and I’m sure that this applies to quite a lot of people, are quite capable of being motivated by increased fighting ability without being obsessed with it (to the detriment of other aspects of the art), or losing the potential for a high level of achievement.
I do see what you’re getting at, and I think it would be true with some people that as long as they were getting better at fighting they might neglect the details, but its a gross generalization, and as such, incorrect for a large amount of people.
Im not saying that they are differant.
Im saying that if you go to class and jusy get a nice hand form good at 8 types of pushing hands and a nice posture you are getting tai chi skills. Now if u dont grapple, sparr or do the stamina training you are not getting the fighting skills.
If you just grapple.sparr and do stamina you are getting the fighting skills but not the tai chi skills.
My point is that we have lots of guys who come train with us who enjoy it but who have no ilussion of their fighting abilities.
Liokault.
Than we are in agreement.
Scotty1.
IME, it applies to the majority and not to the minority.
Oddly Ben Gash I have been thinking about starting a San shou club in swindon!
Do u think there would be interest?
LC, then that is fine. Whatever your experience has been, it has been.
But the way you phrased it initially stated it as a fact that applied to everyone, including me, and that got my back up because you were saying that because of my goals I could not be as good as someone with your goals.
You then proceeded to tell me that my goals shouldn’t be what they are. Which is going to get anyones back up, and if that’s not what you were saying, then you should choose your words more carefully.
This has been an excellent thread BTW. 
Re: Training to fight and fighting to train.
Originally posted by Ben Gash
However, is this a statement about the effectiveness of San Shou, or a statement about how people learn?
Neither. It’s about learning how to fight in the least amount of time.
If a student comes to a school expressing their sole interest is fighting, do they want to spend time on stepping drills, internal forms and spear fighting? Do they feel that learning the 8 drunken immortals form will allow them to win a bar fight?
While those of us who do traditional CMA will state (probably rightly) that in the long run these things will make you a far better fighter, will someone who wants to learn to fight appreciate this immediately?
However, do we devalue our arts and heritage if we tailor our training to pander to these people?
Is that not already being done anyway? There generally is some catering in commercial schools, IME. You have schools that may not train as intensely, because they know that the students will drop out. You have schools that spend more time on forms because they know students like them. You have schools that spend more time on fighting, etc.
One of my Sifu’s once told a fairly senior student that if he didn’t want to do forms anymore then it was probably the wrong school for him and he should seriously think about finding somewhere else to train! How many professional Sifu would be this blunt to a student?
Any traditional sifu should be, as forms are part of the art, and that is what he is teaching. Now, that doesn’t mean that the student’s focus will have to be mainly on forms…
His rationale was that if you train them just to fight then you get a certain type of student. He felt that if they weren’t “invested” in the style, then they felt no alliegance to it and would eventually get bored and drift off. Conversely, the students who are interested in the art side will be driven off by endless fighting training. Indeed, one of his top guys was running some classes and decided everyone needed to be fitter and do lots more San Da. He lost nearly 20 students over the next 6 months!
that’s where the catering comes in, as I stated above. Different people are interested in different types of training.
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Liokault - try posting some fliers at a local college campus or the like, you could most likely find interest there.
While those of us who do traditional CMA will state (probably rightly) that in the long run these things will make you a far better fighter, will someone who wants to learn to fight appreciate this immediately?
LMFAO!
Forms help to develop speed, precision, proper technique. Fighting allows you to apply these techniques. They are 2 edges to the same sword.
Training in context only to fight, and fighting only as your training, where does development of proper structure, stepping, technique, come from? Training only in forms, training only in breathing, stepping, shadow boxing, ect, where does the ability to apply these techniques on a resisting opponent come from? If you do not train both, your not getting the full aspect of training. Go 50/50 with both. If you are not getting enough fighting at your kwoon, spar at home. If you arent getting enough forms practice, do forms at home.
Fighting and forms with no proper conditioning? Another factor to weigh in. If you have hands like rocks, but neglected to strengthen your wrists, what happens when you try and hit someone? If you have soft ass hands, but strong wrists, you f*ck your sh!t up when you hit someone. All parts of training are equal important IMHO. Neglecting one part is going to weigh into your overall ability in the MA one way or another.