I think that the thread in the Southern styles forum on forms brought out the basis for disagreement on forms.
[QUOTE=spaced;926132]It seems your issues with forms is about the fighting side of it. [/QUOTE]
Our Sifu says that forms, performed correctly, striving for perfect technique, demonstrate the grandeur and beauty of Kung Fu.
IMO, there is a school of traditional practicioners that regard fighting as just one element in studying Kung Fu, rather than a driving force behind learning it.
It seems that the folks that question forms put most all their focus into fighting as a goal. In contrast, the folks that enjoy or don’t have a problem with forms are mostly focused on the “art” itself.
On the question of whether practicing forms is “necessary” to be an effective fighter - there is, on the one hand, zero correct answers, and on the other hand millions of opinions.
[QUOTE=wetwonder;926142]I think that the thread in the Southern styles forum on forms brought out the basis for disagreement on forms.
Our Sifu says that forms, performed correctly, striving for perfect technique, demonstrate the grandeur and beauty of Kung Fu.
IMO, there is a school of traditional practicioners that regard fighting as just one element in studying Kung Fu, rather than a driving force behind learning it.
It seems that the folks that question forms put most all their focus into fighting as a goal. In contrast, the folks that enjoy or don’t have a problem with forms are mostly focused on the “art” itself.
On the question of whether practicing forms is “necessary” to be an effective fighter - there is, on the one hand, zero correct answers, and on the other hand millions of opinions.[/QUOTE]
The correct approach and understanding of ones forms training will result in a better understanding of one’s given style(s) of kung fu on many levels and hence contribute to a better fighting ability, as long as the other aspects of TCMAs are trained in parallel as well.
Those who see forms training as irrelevant are better off practicing kickboxing or most probably they already are, even if they don’t know it themselves.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;926145]
Those who see forms training as irrelevant are better off practicing kickboxing or most probably they already are, even if they don’t know it themselves.;)[/QUOTE]
No no, I wasn’t being derogatory towards anyone who focuses on fighting.
I was just thinking through these perpetual form threads, and agree with others who’ve suggested that the two side of the debate are made up of students who focus on the sporting part of fighting and students that are driven more by the “art” as a whole. Both are important, yet different.
[QUOTE=wetwonder;926161]Golden, I saw your post but didn’t know what it meant. I think I’m missing an inside something or other.[/QUOTE]
Wetwonder, golden arhat and some of his (mainly none-kung fu) forum friends have been spreading misinformation about me for a long time here. They just want to convince everyone that I am a troll or even other vile accusations.
The fact is that they don’t like it when I “present” anything resembling the traditional approach to kung fu training, while they go on to preach the “benefits” of MMA to everybody and their grandmothers in the forums.
It is still a mystery for me why MMA-ists would want to post in a Kung fu forum rather than an MMA one.
[QUOTE=wetwonder;926158]No no, I wasn’t being derogatory towards anyone who focuses on fighting. [/quote]
I didn’t say that you were. Sorry, if it came across that way.:o
You made a valid post and started a valid thread. I was just contributing to it, (unlike our MMA "friend"golden arhat), and perhaps did not get my wording right.
The forms training is part and parcel of traditional kung fu training. Forms work in various levels. This type of training is more than just going through the motions.
Luckily for me, the sifus with whom I have studied kung fu have been combat but NOT sport oriented. They all regard forms training as fundemental. I suspect that they know something that many of the “kung fu-ists” here in the forums are missing.
[QUOTE=wetwonder;926158]the two side of the debate are made up of students who focus on the sporting part of fighting and students that are driven more by the “art” as a whole…[/QUOTE]
Just to emphasis (and sticking to the interesting and relevant subject matter of this thread), that the students who are driven more by the art and who take forms training seriously are more often than not also practicing and perfecting the combat aspects of the kung fu as a part of an holistic approach together with the internals and so on.
The idea that some people present which implies that the sporting part of fighting is the real kung fu and that the forms training part is for the “dancer” is false and is propogated by people who have misunderstood the TCMAs.
the Hung Ga I learned only had 4 sets (Gung Gee Fook Fu, Fu Hok, Ng Yuhng Ng Haang and Tit Sin). We spent one year leaning basics, one year each form. I finished Tit Sin in 1987. IE I’ve been around for a little while…
Our Sifu says that forms, performed correctly, striving for perfect technique, demonstrate the grandeur and beauty of Kung Fu.
Nothing particularly wrong with the above sentiment. Yup, if you can perform them correctly you will learn a lot. But the process learning how to perform them correctly is not scientific, it is “hit or miss” and it also pre-supposes that you happen to have hours a day, every day for the rest of your life
But, perhaps more importantly, just because you can perform the techniques and the sets well, doesn’t at all mean you will be able to fight, period
IMO, there is a school of traditional practicioners that regard fighting as just one element in studying Kung Fu, rather than a driving force behind learning it.
the truth, reality, it is a biotch… TCMA are about fighting. Not that long ago that is ALL THEY WERE ABOUT, period. Read Kennedy’s great book on training manuals and your eyes will open (or you’ll jump out a window)
The “masters of old”, and right there we have some issues as well, were trying to be great fighters, but that doesn’t mean that their methods were the best path.
I did some searching on forms and found a nice quote:
"The most precise way to practice [forms in] Hung Gar Maril Arts is slow. To perform it, internal strength must be developed by using all of the inner resources of the body. It is different from the use of external force such as lifting weights, which mainly depend on one's size and weight and which one can by no means get from practice. In contrast, one can get internal strength gradually by means of practice of [forms]. Therefore the practice is not fast, but it must be done precisely.
. . .
The exerciser uses his or her patience in slow motion forms to practice Hung Kuen, to exercise his or her muscles, skeleton and whole body. . . .
. . .
Finally, it must be emphasized that the characterics of Hung Kuen include hardness as well as softness, slowness as well as speed, no external force but internal strength . . . . If one can execute these characteristics, then one is considered an actual exerciser of Hung Kuen."
It regards the manner of developing internal strength, and that internal strength is what makes the practicioner. Forms facilitate internal strength.
[QUOTE=wetwonder;926335]I did some searching on forms and found a nice quote:
"The most precise way to practice [forms in] Hung Gar Maril Arts is slow. To perform it, internal strength must be developed by using all of the inner resources of the body. It is different from the use of external force such as lifting weights, which mainly depend on one's size and weight and which one can by no means get from practice. In contrast, one can get internal strength gradually by means of practice of [forms]. Therefore the practice is not fast, but it must be done precisely.
. . .
The exerciser uses his or her patience in slow motion forms to practice Hung Kuen, to exercise his or her muscles, skeleton and whole body. . . .
. . .
Finally, it must be emphasized that the characterics of Hung Kuen include hardness as well as softness, slowness as well as speed, no external force but internal strength . . . . If one can execute these characteristics, then one is considered an actual exerciser of Hung Kuen."
It regards the manner of developing internal strength, and that internal strength is what makes the practicioner. Forms facilitate internal strength.[/QUOTE]
Very good post. Actually, little understood styles such as Southern Praying Mantis use more or less the same approach as you have quoted. Weight training is an apparent no,no in this way of internal cultivation.
