My take on the state of Kung Fu

Below is my reply to an e-mail I got from a freind of mine. I thought I’d copy it here to see what type of discussion ensued from it.

Jason,
Very interesting perspective.

I have to say i somewhat disagree on a point. It’s not that the traditional arts are misunderstood, it’s that they are taught WRONG!.

Through years of research into the Chinese arts, i have learned that originally they were taught very differently than today. Training consisted of basics, basics, basics. Students where not taught forms, but two man applications to the techniques, which were drilled to the point of absolute mastery in small groups as small as 3, but rarely larger than 9.

My system originally consisted of 32 loose techniques that were used in any order, or combination the fighter saw fit at the moment. when it was developed in 960 AD, it had no forms at all. You just learned a few techniques, and mastered the strategies, and tactics of fighting with them, then learned a few more till you eventually learned and mastered all 32 of them. The rest of the training was hard conditioning, and Qi Gong. the Qi gong was really the essence of the style as it in reality was all the fundamental body mechanics used in the techniques isolated into 8 core drills. The phenomenal health benefits were purely a side effect, and never the original goal.

If you fast forward to 1279 AD, when the Sung dynasty fell, you will find that forms had begun to take shape and the practice spread widely…but not to students. Forms practice was for TEACHERS to record their curriculum’s in a nice orderly, and progressive manor.

Though it is believed to have originally been an invention of the temples, the practice of forms development for recording a systems core curriculum was most likely spread by military trainers to make it easier for them to remember their curriculum’s, and Maintain much of their conditioning. The soldiers going though the training never learned the form, they still got Basics, conditioning and endless two man drills combined with strategy and even free fighting. They ONLY learned the form IF their military career brought them to the point of being trainers…even then, the form was of their own creation based on their battle field experience.

I don’t think forms started to be preserved generation after generation until those military personnel retired, and went home to their various villiages and began teaching the civilians. It was their Civilian students that rose to the level of teachers that preserved the forms taught to them by the former military trainers. Even then, the TEACHING of them was still only to those who were at a level that they began teaching themselves. the students still got Basics, conditioning strategy and endless two-man fighting practice.

Now, in the Temples things were different because they were testing the integrity of their students, so many would put them through grueling conditioning, and extended practice of basics, but once martial lessons were taught, it was still not forms. Those were basically for the teachers.

Fast forward to the Qing dynasty and the advent of commercial schools. THIS is when forms first came into being. It’s a relatively modern thing. The masters all started doing this because they began teaching large numbers of people, and really didn’t want to teach their secrets to just anyone…but of course wanted money. It was also a way of really dragging out the curriculum so what used to be taught in months, now took years. This is also when alot of the practice of drilling techniques in the air for extended periods of time came into being. Only a Master’s inner door disciples were taught correctly. What used to be correct teachings, were now billed as “Higher form”, or Higher levels of the arts.

At first one learned a form, and then applications, and then strategy and how to fight with them. But as time rolled on, it got to be more and more and more form oriented, and further, and further away from the original teachings. You eventually go to today where the masters are nothing compared to their forefathers because of generation after generation of degradation.

It’s gotten to a point now where only the very few learn the applications, and HOW to fight with their style. Many of them are still secretive, and only teach their closest Friends and family the real goods. Most fighting to day is simplistic San Shou, and not the depth of the original systems. That is really lost, except to the few…when it used to be wide spread to anyone who had gone through the military, or their students after they retired.

Now you have styles that originally had 1 long form, or many 3 AT BEST that was practiced only by the Master, and the teachers under him, to systems haveing a hundred or more forms to learn and hardly any application taught being practiced by everyone to the excusion of actually learing the style. It used to be learning a form meant being a competant fighter with the techniques…now it’s just means memorising the choreography…actually understanding is optional if it’s even avalaible.

Anyway, it’s not about martial arts vs martial way, or Fight vs health, its about teaching right, VS teaching wrong, at least with the Chinese arts.

Today, if you want to recover the skills of the past, you really have to reverse engineer your style, and study it’s principals (If you Can even figure that out anymore), and then when you teach, teach the old way.

What is Billed as Traditional Kung Fu in most schools today is actually a very modern system. To get real skills, you need to go back to the roots.

To get real skills, you need to go back to the roots.

Sheeet! I wish I had learned that Thong The Caveman style!

:smiley:

Sorry dude, didn’t read much of your post… but I would have to disagree on that last statement…

Juan

Why? Do you really think going back to the basics, and drilling tones of twoman skills combined with conditioning and heavy study of fighting strategy won’t produce top skilled martial artists? That is how they did it back when they had to count on thier skills to survive…why wouldn’t training like that be just as effective today, as it was then?

It seems to me the MMA guys train this way, and they would mop the floor with ANY modern (cliaming to be traditional when they are not) forms guy…

[I]Sorry dude, didn’t read much of your post… but I would have to disagree on that last statement…

Juan[/I]

Reply]
I just checked ur profile, ur a Hsing I guy, and you don’t agree with me? Dude, Hsing I is ALL About basics, basics, basics, and it RIGHT inline with what I am talking about when I say going back to the roots!

Oh… On this we agree!

Skills doesn’t come from what century your stile is. It comes from HOW you train the style you train! I just don’t like people who say “my style is older than your style so you get more skillz with it”. Thant’s all… Maybe I should have paid more attention on what you were saying.

I’m with you that whatever you train in it should be trained with full pressure, under all circumstances. It doesn’t matter what style, what technique, if you can pull it off, the more for you.

:wink:

J

Sorry dude!

Working on my third Cosmopolitan after workout… hard to keep focused…

Carry on with the normal program.

J

It’s not how old a style is that matters. Back when they were developed, and had to actually function, ALL styles were heavy on basics, conditioning and twoman fighting skill work.

When I say go back to the roots, I mean go back to when they were actually performing the tasks of fighting for real in an honest to God savage eniroment. Go back to the way they were taught THEN.

In every style’s beginning, they were simple, direct and not weighted down with 100 forms + They were a handfull of techniques applied with STRATEGY that was unique to thier style. Back then a style maybe had 100 techniques, and you were fighting well after learning only the first 8-9

Now you have 100 forms, each 10’s, or even hundreds of moves long. You spend years memorising them, and barely understanding the “Way” your style fights, or even what makes your style a style seperate from the next one with 100+ forms.

Oops, sorry i was writing and didn’t see your responses.

Going back on basics, I wonder how may schools out there take their form apart to practise the basics and their possibilities? I have a short experience in Martial arts, only seven years and two schools, but I feel I’m blessed for the fact that I saw a bad example and a very good example. (Here is my present teacher… well teaching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiVHkKV-Zrk). All the applications you see here are part of a form or drill that we usualy practise over and over. The outcomings are different from what we practised originally, but the application is still valid. To me, this means that every technique, every form should be practised in a way that permits the openess to apply each one of them in different circumstances. As you said, this is the bread and butter of Xing-yi… Shouldn’t it be like that for every style/family/school?

Just asking,
Juan

I’ve been through this argument 100 times.

NOBODY seems to care about the fact that requiring a ton of forms and the mechanics of particular moves be done a particular way (their way) in their school is a waste of time. In fact, they REQUIRE it to the exclusion of everything else. They don’t want to change, they don’t want you to do your stuff, they don’t want to waver in their approach.

So while you could easily train MMA with, say, Chuck Liddell and then go and train with Randy Couture or Tito Ortiz, try to do something like Hung Gar at 10 different schools. You’ll likely find 10 different approaches and ways of doing forms unless it’s in the exact same lineage. And they usually won’t let you work with their people unless you join up and have some class time and do their forms. A lot of them require 6 months or more.

IMHO the state of ‘kung fu’ is that teachers just want MONEY. If they don’t want money, they want respect, meaning you do what they do, to the exclusion of what you want to do. Or in other words, it’s their way or the highway.

Which usually means forms, forms and a few drills and some sparring with kickboxing with the occasional hammer fist or something.

Which is just stupid since the current ‘state of the art’ of martial arts (BJJ) is raking in more than most traditional schools.

It’s a waste of breath to talk about it.

The only people in CMA who are changing their approach at all is sanshou/sanda which is watered down anyways.

The real applications of CMA are muscle ripping, tendon tearing, bone breaking, skull crushing, eye gouging, throat crushing, and these cannot be practiced safely in a sport environment.

Shouldn’t it be like that for every style/family/school?

Reply]
Yes. Infact ALL styles were like this originally. It didn’t take years of forms before one learned to fight. You learned to fight rigth away useing the essence of the style, same as your Hsing I teaher does.

Ok…

So where did we loose track?

J

[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;745245]Shouldn’t it be like that for every style/family/school?

Reply]
Yes. Infact ALL styles were like this originally. It didn’t take years of forms before one learned to fight. You learned to fight rigth away useing the essence of the style, same as your Hsing I teaher does.[/QUOTE]

Well alls I can say is don’t expect anybody to change. If you want to teach that’s your perogative but after having the door slammed on me at 100+ schools, I can tell you that nobody wants to change what they’re doing, unless it’s to add a fitness aerobics class or watered down sanda or something to get the weight loss crowd or UFC crowd.

[QUOTE=Juan Alvarez;745246]Ok…

So where did we loose track?

J[/QUOTE]

It’s all about the money. If you teach a lot of forms you can make a lot of money off people, per month, for years.

If you teach people how to really fight and quickly, then you have to worry about them getting injured and quitting class and the potential liability, and quitting because there’s nothing more for them to learn. They could start their own backyard school at that point.

Commercial CMA schools want to make money. They want you to do THEIR forms for years so they can rake in the bucks. That’s all they want.

There are people out there that really want to teach…

J

[QUOTE=Juan Alvarez;745250]There are people out there that really want to teach…

J[/QUOTE]

I’ve met some people who claim to want to teach, but they still require their stuff done their way, and in CMA it usually requires a ton of useless forms to get to partner drills and sparring with them.

Obviously there are probably going to be some exceptions. Everybody says, “We’re the exception.” And then you get there and they require everything done their way and a bunch of forms.

If they don’t get payment out of you in $, they get payment out of you in forcing you to do what they want you to do to the exclusion of what you want to work on and having to put up with overbearing attitudes and their huge egos.

Sorry if this sounds a bit jaded, but it’s just what I’ve run into.

It’s all about the money.

While I agree that there is ALOT of people out there that go for the big buck, I don’t see why people that have the goods shouldn’t charge for it. I know that the fees that my present teacher demands are a joke compared to what my old teacher asked for, but I wouldn’t hesitate one second if he asked for more. Compared to the quality of my old teacher, my new teacher is worth every penny. What is more important, is that my present teacher doesn’t mind his fees, as long as they pay for what he needs. The most imortant for him is the quality of what he teaches and the mark he will leave as a teacher. If you can find people willing to share like that, then you have it made… What more can I say, I’m a lucky *******! :wink:

Juan

Sheet! They censure b-a-s-t-a-r-d ?

:smiley:

[QUOTE=Juan Alvarez;745253]While I agree that there is ALOT of people out there that go for the big buck, I don’t see why people that have the goods shouldn’t charge for it. I know that the fees that my present teacher demands are a joke compared to what my old teacher asked for, but I wouldn’t hesitate one second if he asked for more. Compared to the quality of my old teacher, my new teacher is worth every penny. What is more important, is that my present teacher doesn’t mind his fees, as long as they pay for what he needs. The most imortant for him is the quality of what he teaches and the mark he will leave as a teacher. If you can find people willing to share like that, then you have it made… What more can I say, I’m a lucky *******! :wink:

Juan[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don’t know what to say about that. I never used to think it was a big deal paying teachers until I tried to move from one Shotokan school to another and found out the forms in the first Shotokan school weren’t exactly the same, and the new teacher wanted me to re-learn all the forms.

At that point, it became a bit obnoxious because I didn’t want to have to re-learn all the forms just to do sparring and applications.

Then when it comes to CMA, it’s the same, no 2 mantis systems are the same, no 2 hung gar systems are exactly the same unless it’s with the same teacher or grand-teacher or a close lineage, so you have to re-do everything, which is a total waste of time.

Of course, all the teachers will say I’m just a troll and their way is better, or just stay in the same system, etc., but try to find teachers who do exactly the same thing if you have to move to a different town.

They’re mostly just in it for the $. If it’s not for the $ then they want free training partners in their system done their way.

But most people, I guess, don’t mind paying the $ and re-learning a bunch of new forms at every new school and never getting very good fighting.

You’ll find out if you ever change towns or move away from your teacher. At that point you’ll have a decision: a) try to find a close system or b) retire or c) teach and become part of the problem or d) take something else.