I am moving this thread here, so we can separate it from the CTS Holy War, for ease of following both threads.
Let me say this. It is obvious that for the most part, nobody here really has a clue about how TCMA is actually trained.
I have stated this before, on many forums. If we look at how TCMA was developed and taught over time, it is a no brainer.
Let’s turn the clock back-“into the Wayback Machine, Sherman”
Ancient China-Warring Kingdoms, battlefields, etc.
You are training your army-which do you teach first-drills, drills, drills, fighting application,etc, …or forms? duh.
Ok,fast forward. Overthrow the Ching, Mongols, whatever. You are training Guerilla fighters to fight soldiers. -which do you teach first-drills, drills, drills, fighting applications, etc…or forms? duh, again
Fast forward again, Schools fighting schools. Blood in the streets. Which do you teach first-Drills, Drills, Drills,fighting applications, etc…or forms?
beginning to see a pattern yet?
Ok, fast forward one last time-Schools demonstrating in the square, vying for students. What will you demonstrate? Drills, Drills, Drills, etc or those really cool forms, two-man sets, weapon sets? Which will make the crowd yawn, and which will make them ooooh and ahhh?
Yep. Times have changed.
Since that time, teachers taught forms first, applicationsn second-maybe,drills, drills, drills? c’mon. “I’d rather go down the block to Sifu Chang-he teaches the fFying Monkey form!”
Unfortunately, this is the way the past several generations have taught, and this is how the teachings were passed down. Now, people actually believe this is the way it is supposed to be taught.
WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
Forms catalogue your system. They enable the techniques, whether they be fighting,chi-gung, strength trainig, etc to be passed down from one generation to the other intact. Sure, practice will develop stamina,skills, balance, etc. But it is far better to drill,drill, drill, and train fighting.
In all actuality-unless you want to pass down the system, forms are unneccesary in developing the skills for fighting. Period.
KNIFE FIGHTER is actually correct.
The fact is, TCMA is effective, as is any fighting art-of course, it all depends on the fighter. The reason people like Knifefighter is so adamant about his views-and he has every right to be,is that other than a few, the majority of TCMA schools teach this way.
Like I said. There are exceptions to the rules. Some of us are Dinosaurs. We stick to the old ways-which means we drill, drill, drill, etc and save forms for after.
Oh, and adding BJJ, or Kodokan Judo (my personal fave) into your training is not watering down your art. Remember, the Shaolin Temple was a melting pot. Generation after generation, if a teacher was beaten,and lived,he would usually add the techniques that defeated him as well as methods to counter them into his mix. I, being from Hung-Ga, realise that Wong Fei-Hung combined many methods as well to develop his art. We are no different. Martial Arts should be a living, breathing work in process. You will always need to evolve. Anything less is doing your students, you Sifu, your art, and legacy a disservice.
Nobody here has a clue? ok then, you’ve made your point. lol
Knifefighter is right? Uh, he’s a troll seeking to cause disturbance here and nothing more. he offers nothing.
Who here has only forms in their curriculum? Certainly not how I learned.
Who says tcma doesn’t ahve drills. That’s what is extrapolated from forms that you seem to agree are a catalogue of whichever system you practice. to some extent I agree. They are physical expressions of physical ideas. Extrapolate from them, find what’s effective and use it.
The only one saying they are the sole method of learning to fight is Knifefighter. In fact, he’s throwing a lot of empty presumptions out based on his extremely limited information of what traditional CHinese Martial Arts are.
he is entitled to is opinion albeit skewed and myopic in scope.
Let’s not forget the variants of CMA either.
Military, Medical, Buddhist, taoist and so on and so forth.
Let’s also not forget that the be all and end all of Kungfu is not justthe fighting aspect of it although you can certainly coax that out of it and do just that, in which case, how would taht be different from any type of fight training barring the ranges and what not.
let’s also not forget that mma sprang from somewhere and many mma-ists have traditional backgrounds and draw upon the resources in them as well as other sources.
finally, I am not sure why it is some sort of crusade to convince kungfu practitioners that what they are doing is wrong? What is the purpose of that?
why is it “better” to just train fighting? Ok if that’s all you want, but in context to the big picture, why would that be the only way?
and for the older fellas going on about fighting being the be all and end all, what’s your professional record and where’s your name on the list of greats?
If you’re gonna do mma, that’s cool go do that. If you prefer the Kungfu, then do that.
I really am not getting why people feel a need to preach at people who are enjoying what they are doing and telling them they should do something else instead. Seems a bit pointless.
My old school was a forms school. It took me 3 years to realize it. Since I quit that school over a year ago I’ve struggled to find what I’ve been looking for in martial arts. While the school did give me more strength, flexiblity and stamina, I still feel cheated in some way.
I do realize that some people just love forms and that’s all they want to do. Since I left the school, two people have been promoted to black belt (what ever that means). I believe that these “black belts” now have a false sense of security. One of them will mess with the wrong person and get hurt or worse.
I remember my old sifu telling me that I’ve only got a few more forms to learn and then I can learn the Kwon Dao form. I remember thinking to myself, “why the he11 do I want to learn a kwon dao form when I don’t even fully understand the material that I’ve already learned!?”
It comes down to this. Some people are fine with just learning forms and having their false sense of security. While other people question. How is this really going to help me? Then some people are in between. They like forms and all the mystical stuff, they like applications, they want to know how this stuff works but they really don’t want to test themselves.
Which one is right? It depends on what people are looking for. It’s true that many people are in the dark. Of the people who are in the dark, many stay there willingly.
I’ve been looking for what fits me best. I’m sure that one day I will find it. It still gets me down that I feel that I wasted 3 years of my life while I could have been doing something more meaningful. It’s a part of the journey. I had to go through that to get where I am now. I have to respect that and accept it for what it is and move on.
It doesn’t matter who your teacher is/was… your style doesn’t matter… how you train doesn’t matter.
WHAT MATTERS IS HOW EFFECTIVE YOU ARE IN TAKING OUT YOUR OPPONANT WITH AS LITTLE HARM TO YOURSELF.
If you find yourself not effective. If you find yourself talking, but lacking the tools that give you the courage to put yourself in a position to do what it is that you claim your training allows you to do… you make want to rethink who your training with, what you’re training and how.
These debates are pointless, and usually fueld by those who don’t know. It is a way of intellectualizing and debating something that at its core in instinctual. There are many things to see in martial arts but if you want to learn them you have to do them… the learning is in the doing.
Everyone knows about flanking and cover, etc., etc. Go play paintball (as I just did with the Gracies over the weekend) and get your ass shot and LEARN these concepts in a concrete way.
Put gloves on and go bash someone into submission and see why. Go get bashed and see why.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]Who here has only forms in their curriculum? Certainly not how I learned.[/QUOTE]
See post by CF above.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]Who says tcma doesn’t ahve drills. That’s what is extrapolated from forms that you seem to agree are a catalogue of whichever system you practice.[/QUOTE]
Extrapolating from forms is much different that using drills that come directly from application and is much less effective.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]The only one saying they are the sole method of learning to fight is Knifefighter. [/QUOTE]
Actually, I’m not saying that at all. Some places teach almost all forms, some teach forms mixed with other things, and there are probably places that teach no forms. My position is that any time spent doing forms could be much better spent doing more efficient things.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]Let’s also not forget that the be all and end all of Kungfu is not justthe fighting aspect of it[/QUOTE]
And there’s nothing wrong with that as long as one realizes that the more you diffuse your “goals” the less effective you will be in any one of them.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]let’s also not forget that mma sprang from somewhere and many mma-ists have traditional backgrounds and draw upon the resources in them as well as other sources.[/QUOTE]
The modern MMA model allows for practitioners to continue to utilize any effective resources they have found in TMA.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]finally, I am not sure why it is some sort of crusade to convince kungfu practitioners that what they are doing is wrong? What is the purpose of that?[/QUOTE]
Debate.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]why is it “better” to just train fighting? Ok if that’s all you want, but in context to the big picture, why would that be the only way?[/QUOTE]
It’s only “better” if your goal is fighting.
[QUOTE=David Jamieson;715189]and for the older fellas going on about fighting being the be all and end all, what’s your professional record and where’s your name on the list of greats?[/QUOTE]
It’s not about being great. It’s about finding the most effective way to reach your goals and potential.
Why haven’t boxers done away with shadowboxing? Do you think professional boxers don’t know how to jab? Why do they practise it extensively in their shadowboxing?
Western boxing is full of forms. There is no opponent. No resistance. No target. Just air. Yet they all do it and continue to do it at the most advanced levels. Yes, they are short. And yes, they freestyle. Kung fu is no different. Long forms are for cataloging. Sectioning them is for training. And freestyling is the objective. Why do it? Muscle memory and mechanics. Conditioning. Strength. Rhythm.
[QUOTE=gabe;715236]Why haven’t boxers done away with shadowboxing? Do you think professional boxers don’t know how to jab? Why do they practise it extensively in their shadowboxing?
Western boxing is full of forms. There is no opponent. No resistance. No target. Just air. Yet they all do it and continue to do it at the most advanced levels. Yes, they are short. And yes, they freestyle. Kung fu is no different. Long forms are for cataloging. Sectioning them is for training. And freestyling is the objective. Why do it? Muscle memory and mechanics. Conditioning. Strength. Rhythm.[/QUOTE]
-
Shadow boxing is random. This randomness occurs shortly after beginning to train.
Forms are usually set. Any “freestyling” occurs quite a long time into training. -
Shadow boxing is more about faking and feinting and not completely following through with punches.
Forms are about trying to hit into the air with intent. -
Shadow boxing is used more for warm-up and cool-down than an actual workout.
Forms often make up a main portion of a kung fu workout. -
The moves done in shadow boxing look almost exactly like those done when fighting.
There is often no or very little resemblance between forms and actual fighting.
Greetings..
As has been stated.. “times are changing”.. The issue is that there are two groups of thought, one wants to preserve the hardcore blood and guts fighting.. the otherwants to expand that experience to include more cultural concepts..
The “old fellas”, the Chinese, lived in the culture that supported their art, here, in the US, we don’t.. it might be appropriate, if we really want to understand the art, to also understand the culture..
The great armies no longer clash on the battlefield with hand-to-hand combat being a necessity or even a likelihood.. we have the time and opportunity to refine the arts, to build a character and social benefit.. you betcha, there were some unsavory characters “back in the day”, ruffians and thugs.. great fighters, but.. as willing to start a fight as to practice a defensive stragety..
Here’s the rub, and it’s a big one.. we can preserve the “old ways”, but we will also preserve a mean-spirited aggression.. it is the nature of seasoned, combat hardened martial artists, to test their skills.. whether by agreed upon contests/competitions or in the streets, the contest has a winner and a loser.. and human nature desires to be the winner.. from that desire it is observable that people will resort to means beyond what the situation demands to insure their desires are met..
To move beyond the inherent violence associated with TCMA requires a different way of thinking, where winning is not determined by defeating, and possibly maiming, the other player(s).. Forms, can afford a level of training that negates some of the potential for injury and egotistical friction.. MA will never be without direct physical competition, but.. it makes sense to diminish it somewhat, to build a model that moves us in a direction of less violent resolutions to disagreements.. There are those whose spirits demand that they test themselves and others to validate their self-expectations, so be it.. but, it is contrary to the premise of “self-defense”, to use unregulated violence as a test of the Arts..
I hope that ultimately civilization will evolve beyond the need to express its frustrations through violence, to move beyond combat as a resolution to personal or cultural differences.. where, someday, forms would be judged as Art and not critiqued as ineffective for destroying an opponent.. BUT, until that day, there is wisdom in developing specific skills for self-defense, hard skills, tested skills.. We should be just a little more understanding of the Art of Martial Arts, give it a chance to be an option for future generations.. a chance to let violence slip into the shadows of antiquity, a chance for great strength, great skill, and great art to evolve in a society that rejects violence as an option.. without that option, we are doomed to project violence into the future, a recurring cycle of humanity’s quest to destroy itself..
Be well..
What a trick. The thread title sounds kung fu, but then we get in here and tentigers turns out to be a non kung fu guy.
Why would you post non kung fu on a kung fu forum?
Remeber what the final purpose is-
To extended life and maintain youth.
:eek:
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;715244]- Shadow boxing is random. This randomness occurs shortly after beginning to train.
Forms are usually set. Any “freestyling” occurs quite a long time into training.
-
Shadow boxing is more about faking and feinting and not completely following through with punches.
Forms are about trying to hit into the air with intent. -
Shadow boxing is used more for warm-up and cool-down than an actual workout.
Forms often make up a main portion of a kung fu workout. -
The moves done in shadow boxing look almost exactly like those done when fighting.
There is often no or very little resemblance between forms and actual fighting.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but where I come from, the shadowboxing was to work mechanics of the individual punches and the combinations. We certainly did them with intent and the coach watched our mechanics very carefully. We skipped rope and hit the speedbag to warmup. We practised specific combinations, not random ones, before transferring to the mitts. Later, they became shuffled sequences of our combinations. That’s the way kung fu is supposed to go, no matter which style, contrived then random.
I didn’t think much of choy lee fut when I first saw it, but meeting up with a few of them, I appreciated their combinations from a western boxing perspective. Yes, their combinations came right out of their forms. You made some WC friends, go ask them if they are able to use any of their techniques from their forms. Maybe ask Alan Orr if he’s used any WC in actual fighting.
And as far as forms being the bulk of a kung fu workout, well, you are welcome to your generalizations.
Once you know the forms, they can become just another part of your workout routine.
But it takes an immense amount of time to learn them well enough to get to that point, especially if you have 10 or more.
yehhoi-what gives youthe impression that I am not a “kung-Fu Guy”? Just because I expressed interest in Kodokan Judo? I have been teaching Siu Lum Hung Kuen (Hung-Ga) for over twenty years. I also train in Kwong Sai Jook Lum Ji Nam Tong Long P’ai. Martial Arts is my passion, soit is also my hobby. Iam also planning on learning Kendo-when I find an extra day in the week…why? 'cause it looks like fun. I still like to fence as well.
I’m a guitarist. But I am learning drums.Does that mean I am no longer a guitarist?
I think shadowboxing would still be considered a drill, rather than a form.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;715276]I think shadowboxing would still be considered a drill, rather than a form.[/QUOTE]
Define a drill and define a form.
A form drills movement and muscle memory.
I would de-construct the practice of forms in two ways
- Context…
Perhaps in circumstances where there is one teacher and few students, like “old china”, it was a way to get students to practice something over and over again. Also, with few potential partners and no equipment, what else can you really do?
- as an outdated methodology of training
Clearly to some extent forms were meant as a form of movement training and body awareness… but again, times change, and other, better methods arrive
[QUOTE=gabe;715263]Sorry, but where I come from, the shadowboxing was to work mechanics of the individual punches and the combinations. We certainly did them with intent and the coach watched our mechanics very carefully. We skipped rope and hit the speedbag to warmup. We practised specific combinations, not random ones, before transferring to the mitts. [/quote]
what you describe here is not shadowboxing. you are just drilling techniques. This is usually done before a person moves up to being able to shadowbox. Once these techniques are learned with proficiency, you stop doing them in the air preset and move onto mitts, shadowboxing and various types of bag work. Notice that all of those are spontaneous. At advanced levels, mitt work is also spontaneous.
And as far as forms being the bulk of a kung fu workout, well, you are welcome to your generalizations.
several people here have acknowledged truth to this. It’s been my experience also.
warmup
forms work
applications
bow out
but out of the 1.5 hour class we spent about 15 mins on warm up and 15 mins on application drilling. an hour on average was for forms. sparring was only done once a week during class. sometimes, some of us would spar on our own after class was over. Every TMA school (not just kung fu) that I trained at followed a similar format.
so, sevenstar, are you still at those schools, or did you wake upand move on?
AHHHHHHHHHSH!!!TTT!
aw.man. I just fell off my soapbox. ouch.
ok, i’m ok. uhh..ok, I’m back on.(whew!) I coulda hurt myself up there
Personally, I think unarmed martial arts are better than they’ve ever been. I’m guessing in the past, much like today, if you found yourself on the battle field without a weapon you were ****ed. And then, like today, if I really had it in my heart to do away with someone for whatever reason, I would most likely ambush them with a weapon.
So how much time did real warriors devote to unarmed combat when swords, speers and even staffs or poles were available for defense… and offense? Even Cain used a rock on Able.
Today, ina relative peaceful society, we are now able to study and train unarmed combat for the sake of unarmed combat alone. And we now have venues where kicking, punching, locking, throwing and submission grappling can be employed at the same time. Add to this seven figure pay off for the top dogs… the will, motivation, access to the best methods are there in ways never before available.
This is not saying anything about one style or another.
Of Fighting and Forms …
Forms, Routine, Taolu, Quan(fist), Jia(frame) and whatever label used to be a very serious matter. In some styles, it has developed highly to the point that it becomes a coherent set of anatomical precepts which are designed to transform sick or weak consititutions to health and fitness (martial) to handle laborious tasks (ie fighting). The meek becomes courageous with definite martial skills. The power base is the mental faculty channelling through the corporal nucleus (physical center of gravity of a human body) known as Dantian and then extented out to build a delivery system whatever that may be.
Then came along human being’s number one friend and foe - imagination. Imagination as used by the Mckwoon/McDojo and Modern Wushu crowd totally gave legit Kung Fu forms a bad reputation. They fabricated many many useless forms, which I call pulp fictions or carpola, for commercial purposes.
When a delivery system is developed based not on truth but imagination, Huston, we have a problem.
The problem really is the lack of proper education especially in the Chinese worldview IMHO. 
It’s really are the fault of the so called masters and worst self proclaimed Grandmasters. :eek:
Mantis108