Forms are NOT a method of training or learning to fight. If you forum guys and gals think so it is because you haven’t learned yet or your teachers never did. Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.
Traditional training obviously has different methods of fight training. Training for strength, power, speed, endurance, overall conditioning come from specific training, not forms. (Feel free to discuss these.) Fighting within the context of the class, outside the class with others, in tournaments and competitions are also part of the training.
Some commercial schools probably have a problem with this either because of insurance liability or just keeping students who would otherwise walk away from the hard work and pain of learning martial arts. If all you are learning is forms, you will not be able to learn martial arts.
And don’t get me started on health blah, blah, blah. Being active is healthy but their is nothing else healthy about learning or training martial arts.
The drill or the practice of Gong Fa or Lian Gong.
This is the dreaded word.
You repeat the same punch or kick with and without bags over and over 100 times, 250 times in a row from 25 min to 45 min or more.
I was asked to walk in Ba Gua circle back and forth for 25 min, 45 min or 1 hour and half and yes everyday.
The moves are drilled over and over till perfection. And every single time has be right with full intent and power.
The props are usually destroyed before the drills are over.
Realtime response
Spar only with one technique learned at a time. The teacher or the training partner will attack in all ways to get you, you are allowed to use only one technique. This way you are forced to think about all the possibilites or potential apps of a singel move. I would maneuver in all ways to make the move workable. Most of the time, I was avoiding or maneuvering till the time and opportunity occurs and done.
Foundations
The drills to perfection. The study of apps. They both come hand in hand. It is the root of your fighting skills.
Originally posted by Yum Cha Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship?
If I understand count correctly, forms would be the book or the video that catalogs the various techniques. Practicing the forms would have nothing to do with fighting, other than for remembering the techniques of the system.
Re: Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)
Originally posted by count Forms are NOT a method of training or learning to fight.Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system.
If this is the case, wouldn’t that make them pretty antiquated and inefficient in these days of digital cameras and word processing?
Re: Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)
Originally posted by count Traditionally forms are learned as a method of passing on the history and flavor of the system. If this is the case, how do new techniques fit in? And how would you get rid of old ones that have been replaced by better ones?
Tai Ji Quan used to be called old 3 cuts or Lau San Dao.
In the classics, there are documents or theories of 13 postures.
Tai Ji is a continuous boxing or Chang Quan and consists of 13 postures.
Which means there are only 13 moves.
General Cheng Wang Ting, a Ming general retired after Qing takeover. Tai Tzu Chang Quan was used to drill Ming’s palace guards and army.
Based on TZCQ and emphasizing silk reeling or Chan Si. He compiled Chang Quan 108 forms, Pao Zui or cannon fist 2 forms etc.
Chen Chang Xing then combined and shortened all these drilling forms into Lao Jia Yi Lu and Pao Zui Er Lu. There are long staff, Da Dao, straight swords, etc drilling forms.
They are forms for drilling.
Usually we have to take them apart into 6 or more segments.
I’m gonna hit this later when I get a minute, but as far as technology goes, we have dvd’s, computers and such. I still tell my kid stories and encourage her reading books. I’m not trying to convert people to my way of life. Like I said in the other (ugh) thread…
Originally posted by count
Am I advocating for “traditional” martial arts here? That’s a good question. I would say people should not get involved with learning them. They are dinosaurs which should have become extinct years ago. But for some reason, a handful of people have decided they want to keep this dinosaur alive. It makes me hopeful that the “state of kung fu” is not so crappy after all. It’s the state of practitioners that may be weak and pathetic. That, and the exploding population and technological advancments on this planet making all this obsolete and insignificant.
I would have posted this in that thread, but there was no sense in beating a dead Horse.
Originally posted by Yum Cha Would you agree to the extension of your idea that forms are the tools, fighting is the craftsmanship?
Hands and feet are tools. Bags and weights are tools. Forms are nothing but a collection of techniques put together. If you want to use the techniques, I suggest doing them in the air isn’t going to help much.
Re: Re: Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)
Originally posted by Knifefighter
If this is the case, how do new techniques fit in? And how would you get rid of old ones that have been replaced by better ones?
Well, I’m not sure there are new techniques. Maybe new methods or strategy of using them. But as far as my personal training, forms are changed and modified over time I guess. Whole new systems evolve from older ones. But anyway, I get your point.
Some Chinese boxing methods have theories first, such as Xing Yi theory by general Yuet Fei, Tai Ji theory even longer before there are boxing sets.
The theory evolved over time. The boxing moves based on theories took root. More moves are added on over time.
Incorporation of theory;
In 7 stars mantis, if you have the 16 methods, Gou Luo Diau Cai, Beng Tza Gua Pi, Zhan Nian Tei Kao, San Zhuan Teng No, your boxing moves may be called 7 stars Tang Lang.
Over the years, northern boxers adapt or incoporate these methods into their own boxing moves. There are over 400 forms thruout Northern China. 7 stars become the most diverse and popular school of CMA.
We have to fight through our forms, but we also break each individual fighting motion down and drill them seperately as well. Forms should preserve the art aspect of your style, but they should also have specific fighting application.
SPJ,
I hear you. I totally understand what you’re talking about. I would throw out some information about pai da training or sand bag training from piqua that comes from traditional methods too. I think you’ll need to give more information though. Unless people here understand your Mandrin with the Taiwanese accent, I don’t think they’ll really get the jist of what your putting out.
Great stuff though.
Originally posted by Indestructible We have to fight through our forms, but we also break each individual fighting motion down and drill them seperately as well. Forms should preserve the art aspect of your style, but they should also have specific fighting application.
LOL, I might say duh, but I get your point. I would say we don’t even learn a form until we learn basic usage and drills followed by 2-man drills and applying techniques on the fly. But that’s really a teaching method more than a traditional or modern method. In traditional forms there are no empty movements. Every movment represents a technique.
how many times do we have to discuss this? forms also teach your body how to move and generate power. [/B]
Sorry for bringing up a topic again, but obviously from your opinion, it hasn’t been discussed enough.
There are many ways to build structure, power, and speed. Moving your hands around in the air is not one of them. A technique has to be drilled hundreds of times against resistance. (SPJ already pointed this out) How many times do you practice your form to get the same results? Will you always step in the same direction if someone is moving around you? You have to train footwork. For endurance, timing, against an opponent. How will a form teach you the proper angles, timing, and usage in various conditions? No, you’ll have to convince me forms can accomplish that. Just saying something you heard isn’t going to cut it.
Well, forms are like living fossils of a system, which is a bit of an oxymoron. It provides crucial clues to how the systems onces were in a "dynamic " way. More importantly, it reflects the cultural bearings and worldview of the system. In Kung Fu’s case, the forms must reflect 24 essentials (4 attacks, 8 methods, 12 dynamic forms/shapes). Now there are myriad variations and combinations of the 24 essential; therefore, you have myriad of styles.
The problem is that nowadays both teachers and students of TCMA have difficulties in transmitting and grasping these concepts because there are planty of astrologists (those who would theorize and observe the stars) but not enough astronauts (those who would actually land on and touch the stars). Some just ignore the 24 essential and do whatever they please and call their system Kung Fu. :rolleyes:
Through the forms we can see evolution of Kung Fu easily back to Ming dynasty (1500s). But I don’t quite agreed that it is entirely just for show. Form should be pragmatic in nature. Nowadays there are plenty, but not all styles, would take artistic license over pragmatic function. La vita loca, what can we say?
