I practice forms. A lot. Hella much.
I defended myself several times against unwanted and uncool aggression.
Therefore, I rule.
****es on already dead and smelly horse
Count-
Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the functionality of forms.
You can see, based on just the responses so far, a sampling of how many kung fu people believe in the practicality of doing forms to develop fighting ability.
I rest my case.
Getting there knifefighter.
Mantis108,
LOL, living fossels. 
Don’t ever touch 64 palms! With your taoist nature you’ll spend the rest of your life going around in circles.
The way I see it
Why memorizing math equations and such if they are all recorded in books? This is actually arguable, since a lot of students don’t memorize the equations, and instead depend on cheat sheets in exams.
Simularly, I see the new recording mediums as cheat sheets. there’s nothing wrong with using them, but it really doesn’t hurt to be able to memorize forms and such. Sometimes, forms are down right convenient. What happens when you don’t have access to DVD players, VCRs etc? Just go through the form, pull put a techniques and two and drill.
Forms seems to be a very effecient way to memorize/transmiit knowlege. Images on screen are just images, One still need to learn the movements before they can even start to drill them, but forms hit two birds with one stone. Not only you memorize the contents, you also get used to the movements at the same time.
It is however, just a training tool. Is it possible for people to become good at fighting without learning them? Absolutely. Just like there are people who can become great artists with no academical training. Does that make academical methods invalid?
It’s unhealthy to be too single sided with anything. If we can understand the reasoning, and the original purpose of forms, then it’s not difficult to understand its values. In the same logic, it also makes the stupidity of people that do only forms very clear.
sigh… yet another subject that has been debated to death.
Forms are primarily a coordination exercise. You do not really need to learn forms to remember techniques. Styles like BJJ and Submission wrestling have just as many techniques and yet they are able to remember them in a fight, where it counts. Forms are not for learning how to fight, they are for fluidity of motion, agility, flexibility etc… The low stances build leg strength and endurance, the tightly chambered fists at the sides promote good posture. Many of the southern forms have isometric and breathing exorcises built in to them. There are other ways to train these things, but forms have roled them all in to one exorcise.
Forms are not necessary to become a good fighter, but they are an art form in and of themselves and enjoyable to learn for many martial artists including myself. The weapons forms are very fun to learn. They have a beauty and artistic quality much like dancing.
I have found that most people that have a great disdain for forms or katas are not very good at them to begin with. You can be very bad at forms and still become a good fighter though, but that does not mean that people who choose to practice them are wasting there time.
The form is a part of our system, but it is not assigned a disproportionate amount of importance, assuming you want to learn to fight. In fact, if a student wanted to be trained up for a full-contact competition in 6 months time, form would not be a priority in what he he was taught.
However, I do find that when I put a few minutes into doing the form each day, I find free-wrestling ‘easier’. The movement, the shape is there. So it’s not essential, but I find it smooths me out a bit.
Also, there ARE the health benefits, which contribute indirectly to fighting ability. After a hard neigung conditioning session, the form is lovely… 
PLUS, while it doesn’t teach your body to generate power in the same ay hitting something does, it does help ingrain whole body movement, everything starting and finishing at the same time.
Not very well explained, but definitely something I have experienced.
Originally posted by Knifefighter
[B]Count-
Sounds like you and I are on the same page regarding the functionality of forms.
You can see, based on just the responses so far, a sampling of how many kung fu people believe in the practicality of doing forms to develop fighting ability.
I rest my case. [/B]
When you go t o school, you are taught to write. When you further your eduction, you are taught how to write like the bygone masters. This was not so everyone would write just like Hemmingway, but to help teach a concept. It is usuall more effective to learn from experience.
How do you teach this lesson to a group of people after the fighter they are trying to emulate is dead? Especially if he/she died long before the students were even a twinkle in thier daddy’s eye? Writtings are nice, but they don’t show you what it looked like. Videos could show you, but not correct it if you get it wrong. There for, a video or a book would help you to remember, or to mimic the style you are trying to learn. But I think we all argree that looking at a book about punching will not make one a better puncher. Shadow boxing can help, though.
I do my form because I enjoy it. No need to justify it beyond that.
If I only wanted to know how to fight, I wouldnt do forms. I’d spend all my time hitting a bag and a sparring partner using as few techniques as possible. It wouldn’t be an art, but it would work in a fight.
Pretty sad waste of time to spend the last 20 years training martial arts just to fight and then to walk away from them whenever possible. I’d feel like I’d wasted my time if the only benefit I got from my training was being able to fight.
Health - interesting that you would think that there’s no health benefit to a form. So opening the joints, moving through your full range of movement, relaxing into your body and removing tension and concentrating on pure movement isn’t of benefit? What about mentally - do you discount meditation as being useful to one’s health? Spiritually? What about posture improvement? All of these things can be gained through core stability training, meditation, pilates, all kinds of different activities. I choose to get them through taiji.
Do I train to apply my taiji? Yes of course - I spar, I do heavy bag work, I do pad work.
Have I applied taiji in the real world (i.e. a fight)? Yes I have - and the most succesful times have been when I walked away without fighting.
Maybe I just have different goals.
well said
This is a form:
I start working on the heavy bag, and decide to drill my: ‘‘two straight punch followed by low roundhouse’’. And: ‘‘jab, elbow, knee’’
I drill these combinations for 20 min. each time with as much force I can manage, as fast and proper that I can while still controlling my balance.
This itself is a form. It’s a number of techniques that is put in a combination or can be broken down to one movement. (just a knee attack, or just the jab). These techs aren’t bad just because you do them in the air, but to teach the body how to do them correctly you have to spend time actually doing them - With bags or people. But if you only focus on kicking the bag you’r kick might become hard, but your balance might be p1ss poor. So by working on these movements over and over again, the techs will get better.
That’s a form
In Karate it would be called ‘Waza’ rather than “Kata” - they are distinct and different.
A waza is just a technique or set of techniques, a kata is training something more (principles of movement for instance)
I would call what you mentioned a technique drill - just different definitions I guess.
no… that’s a kicboxing drill.
I’m starting to see a pattern here. the people who believe forms help you learn to fight, don’t want to discuss it. Maybe you feel I insulted your methods? Maybe I pricked your bubble? I assure you, I did not mean to offend anyone. As you may already know, I train in “Traditional” Chinese Martial Arts" primarily for the past 30 years. I have had experience in martial arts from other countries, but my training follows traditional methods.
There are many aspects to my training. If all I wanted to do was fight professionally, I would obviously spend more time at the gym. Pumping weights, running, sparring. There is a obviously a difference in preparing for a career as a fighter and just learning to defend yourself should a situation arise.
Forms are as much a part of my training as anything else. At some point when I leave my teacher and go out and teach on my own, I will be teaching the system he taught me. But it’s the method he taught me in that I believe in, not the forms he showed me.
Kristoffer,
I’m not talking about the difference between sets, forms, patterns. Even in the Chinese culture of learning they distinguish between Ta Lu and Forms. What most English speaking people think of a form is actually a number of forms strung together as a routine. You are correct that those combinations and combination training are forms. But when you move to the bag, the training becomes something else.
Kaitain(UK):
I think you know what I’m talking about, so I’ll put it this way. “Traditional” training involves nei gung, chi kung, and wei gung. You can focus on these aspects in your standing and forms training, but they are not the primary purpose or result. If you want to open your joints, increase your flexibility, remove tension, do yoga.
If you want to learn to fight there are other methods in traditional training that are for that. As far as spirituality, that’s part of everyone’s personal path. It takes a certain character to put so much time in something you hope to never use.
Becca,
If you want to write books or make movies, the important thing is to have the experience to tell about.
Sam,
Maybe debated to death, but as you can see, many people don’t have an idea of why they learn forms. As I have said, and in agreement with you, there are many things you can take from forms, but their primary purpose is to pass on the history and flavor of someone’s past lineage. I have found that people that have disdain for fighting as part of their training or the hard boring basic work necessary to learning martial arts, are to weak or not very good at it.
gfx,
I hear what you are saying (almost). You sound like an artist to me. There is a difference between understanding and being able to communicate something. Their is a difference when a person does a form who does not understand its basic meaning. It’s important to make a personal expression, but it’s empty without an having gone through the actual training.
Thanks for the reply Count - I just felt you were being a bit harsh.
Yoga sucks and you cant fight with it Health is a side effect of correct martial training - I strongly believe that. I took what you said to mean that there werent any health beenfits other than being active - I took issue with it
Too many smileys.
Originally posted by count
Becca,
If you want to write books or make movies, the important thing is to have the experience to tell about.
Lost me on this one? I was using the book/writting example, because forms at one time were the equivilant to text books. Pretty much all crafts were taught this way in illiterate sosieties. This didn’t make the people dumb, they just didn’t know how to read for one reason or another.
I’m not talking about the difference between sets, forms, patterns. Even in the Chinese culture of learning they distinguish between Ta Lu and Forms. What most English speaking people think of a form is actually a number of forms strung together as a routine. You are correct that those combinations and combination training are forms. But when you move to the bag, the training becomes something else.
You move the form to the bag and you get drills. This is like reading a chapter about how to fight form a modern book, going over it repetedly step by step with one’s teacher, then going out and trying it on your own. Yes, this process can skip step one and even step two, but that doesn’t meen everyone who doesn’t skip those steps is actually deluding themselves about what they are doing. More like acknowledging were their roots are from.
Originally posted by Kaitain(UK)
[B]Thanks for the reply Count - I just felt you were being a bit harsh.
Yoga sucks and you cant fight with it Health is a side effect of correct martial training - I strongly believe that. I took what you said to mean that there werent any health beenfits other than being active - I took issue with it
Too many smileys. [/B]
No Worries,
I just meant there is nothing healthy about getting beat up 
or hitting your body against hard things :eek: but of course traditional training covers more than that Sorry if I came off a bit harsh I hope it didn’t make you to :mad:
Originally posted by Becca
Lost me on this one? I was using the book/writting example, because forms at one time were the equivilant to text books. Pretty much all crafts were taught this way in illiterate sosieties. This didn’t make the people dumb, they just didn’t know how to read for one reason or another.
I just meant whether you’re writing a text book or a novel, if you don’t write from your own experience, make it your own so to speak, it is empty and meaningless. As far as the way things were taught 100’s of years before to an illiterate, one can only speculate. I’m guessing, if you can’t spell, you can’t write.
HEY! I spell phoeneticly, allright!:mad:
I’m not a big fan of forms and I think Jess O, who just visted our class could understand why I feel that way.
Take taiji. How many people know the actual applications? … I’ll ask again, the actual applications?
So you have all these people doing a form real slow and calling it taiji. An application has to be tested against a resisting foe in order to truly understand it. And if you have the opportunity in your training to do that, why would you spend 45 minutes doing cloud hands back and forth when you could put gear on and use it against someone shooting in on your legs?
Well, you might do it to train keeping a straight back, an empty mind and circulate your energy … Count I’m very surprised to hear that you don’t find any health benefits associated with MA being that you play Ba Gua. Walking the circle slowly, holding the postures and twisting in, step by step, that gets my $hit running.
I’ve been doing that for like 10 minutes and then going right into San Ti … my stomach problem is gone, girls are saying my skin and hair is awesome – whatever that means – and life is generally much better.
I’ve learned a lot this past two months.
.01 (on original post)
Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.
Either train or don’t train. Don’t like forms? Think they’re useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.