No, that’s a form
And the techniques can be found in almost every traditional CMA, so I don’t know why it would make it kickboxing.
count
I was trying to get my point across that a form is just any sets of movements, even if based on very simple techs like those I made up. Many people thinks forms are exotic weird techs that are to hard to pull of in a fight, when infact alot of forms contains VERY simple movements like - block, punch, knees etc etc.
I both agree and disagree on that it’s something else when done with the bag. Is it not the same movements? Is it not the same techs?
Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.
Either train or don’t train. Don’t like forms? Think they’re useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.
Point, set and match. BTW, show me one place where I said I don’t like forms or I think they’re useless. But after 30 years of study in CMA and 16 years married to a Physical Therapist, I think I have a good idea of what exercise is all about. If you think you’re getting it from doing your forms, than do your forms. But you are missing the point of your training and you’re missing the point of this post.
BTW, Ray, I didn’t say I did not find any health benefit either. Just that it is not the primary reason to train in martial arts. Just like forms are not the primary method of learning to fight. Glad your making progress and give my regards to Mr. Chan
The point is many people have commented on this forum and in recent threads in particular, what they think forms are for in their training. The point is some people mistakenly believe forms are a way to learn to fight. They are not.
For the record, my remarks were made as a general statement to whomever might read them, they were not intended for anyone in particular.
I thought the record was clear when your wrote,
Originally posted by tug .01 (on original post)
Well, if I may, I for one am sick and f@cking tired of this topic, which has become, as Vash-san said, a dead and smelly horse.
Either train or don’t train. Don’t like forms? Think they’re useless?
Then get out of the way so I can get my work done. Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.
If you weren’t addressing the post or the topic, what else than? Who were you asking these questions, or are the only rhetoric you heard someone say and thought it fit your idea of what forms are for?
Count, sorry, I noticed you clarified that point a little further up but only read your original post, some of the first page and then skimmed through the rest.
I’ll give Master Chan a shout out for you. It’s been a long time.
Yea, I’ve made some leaps and bounds especially in the past two months. I now understand what internal is, and its now a pleasure to do the standing where before it was torture and I’ve learned to regulate, my, uh, expenditures (lets call them).
All of this, combined with getting deeper into my master’s art, it’s really improved my fighting but I’m not … well, I am getting antsy but I’m going to trust my teacher and wait. I won’t lose again and put myself out there for ridule because I’m now associated with my master and his school and need to do things right. You’ve seen some of his stuff. When this crazy 30 year old who’s not scared to fight gets that … it should be interesting.
The thing I love most about my master, even at 64 now, he doesn’t want to talk to martial artists that come visit … he doesn’t take them to his office, or sits in his chair and directs the class – he puts the gloves on:)
The point is some people mistakenly believe forms are a way to learn to fight. They are not.
I don’t disagree, at least with the fact that many are dissolusioned initially. But I don’t agree that form work is not an integral part of training to fight, hence the kinesiology reference. They will not TEACH you how to fight, but they will help train and condition your body.
If you weren’t addressing the post or the topic, what else than? Who were you asking these questions, or are the only rhetoric you heard someone say and thought it fit your idea of what forms are for?
I was addressing the topic, the questions were rhetorical (not meant to be answered) to affirm my beliefs.
And I don’t have an IDEA of what forms are for, I know what they are for because I understand the nature of TCMA and its immeasurable value in training one to know oneself, and through that, to know others. I don’t believe we should just throw them out the window.
I was trying to argue the validity of using forms as a training method in modern days.
I tried to avoid talking about all the other aspects of forms, i.e strength, coordination, theory and methods because I can see alternative methods that are more specialized for all of them. I have also been asking myself the validity of the forms recently, especially when I teach beginners. I find that teaching them drills and simple techniques give them the ability to fight faster (way faster, not even a comparison ). So I’m starting to think that maybe forms should only be taught when people have enough of an understanding of basic combat.
I however, find forms useful for myself. When I need to think of a new concept or a new technique/drill to teach, I can go back and pull one out of the forms I know. I find it a very useful tool for mental organization. Something that is much faster than video records.
I tried to avoid talking about all the other aspects of forms, i.e strength, coordination, theory and methods because I can see alternative methods that are more specialized for all of them. I have also been asking myself the validity of the forms recently, especially when I teach beginners. I find that teaching them drills and simple techniques give them the ability to fight faster (way faster, not even a comparison ).
I however, find forms useful for myself. When I need to think of a new concept or a new technique/drill to teach, I can go back and pull one out of the forms I know. I find it a very useful tool for mental organization. Something that is much faster than video records.
Think about the word FORM. So what would you learn from a form? Correct form. Should you just blast away at a heavy bag before you learn the correct way to punch or kick?
How many injuries before you get it right (hopefully no permanent ones). When I was young I had a friend who lifted weights. He told me he screwed up his wrists lifting heavy weights incorrectly. Maybe he should have practiced his FORM with just the bar first.
Martial Art or Martial Science?
Forms teach the art of fighting, not just the mechanics. That’s why there are so many styles out there. Individual expression, an art form.
Some are only interested in martial science. They train a few basic techniques and then use them in sparring.
Some like the martial art. They like to study the more elaborate moves and distance themselves from the cookie-cutter, if A then B types. They express their movement in fighting.
So what we have here are the artists, pro forms, and the scientists, anti-forms. The scientists believe the moves in forms are too fancy. The artists believe without forms you lose the flavor and you’re just a robot going through the motions.
To each his own but the smart player will balance the two.
Think about the word FORM. So what would you learn from a form?
Maybe I’m strangely genetically predisposed to this, but the first thing that ALWAYS comes to mind when I think of the word form is MOVEMENT and the BODY - the BODY in MOTION. Not that one wouldn’t think the same when it comes to san da or something similar, but we all know one cannot crawl, walk, fly or fight before learning how. Face it, all MAs, whether traditional or modern, have some kind of “moves” or “techniques” to learn in order to understand and use said MAs. I would venture to say one might even call those “forms”. The way I look at it, no matter what you do, if you are studying a prescribed set of movements or techniques, you are studying a kind of “form”.
They express their movement in fighting.
He11, I would even say fighting can be a “form” of fighting!
When I think of the word “form” I see the position the body is in during the highth of a specific technique, ie; leg extended and arms up in defence for a proper side kick. Now a comination of forms, I would classify as a sequence. I think in todays modern era we have adapted the word “form” to meet with this connection of forms. It is very generic and can mean different things to different people. As well as styles. “Form” such as the form of a mountain or the form of a tree.
If we’re being technical, the word “form” is very important. I am very mindful or what FORM my shield is talking when attacked by a hook or uppercut, when a kick is coming in straight our rounded. The training I do is to program certain responses that come automatically from a strong structure (FORM) and how to maintain that structure even though it’s in motion … and how to adapt and change one strong form to another strong form, etc., etc.
But let’s not bull$hit ourselves. This is not what “form” means when 9 out of 10 martial artists get together and discuss form. This is the problem we have … lots of people purposely fooling themselves to satisify their ego.
Today, form means that guy who shows up at the tournament dresses in the black Kung Fu uniform with red trim carrying a big bag and a Kwon Do. He stands to the side of the gym and warms up doing his forms all flashy for that hour or two before the comp and we all see him and then he does his empty hand routine and its very good and we wins a medal. Then he takes out the broadsword from the bag and does his weapons form and maybe wins again and then swings the Kwon Do around because it was actually a tie and had to do another weapons performance.
Then, after this guy walked around the place for 4 hours with his chest out, he quietly packs up his $hit and you see him taking his goodbye pi$$ while you’re in the bathroom putting on your cup and taking your last minute nervous jitters **** before fighitng.
Why shouldn’t a guy be proud for putting in a shitload of hours working on a weapon form and then performing well in competition? Or for winning in Talou?
It takes a lot of time and commitment to get a decent level of skill in those areas. And then to have the nuts to get up in front of the world and display those skills is commendable.
Re: Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)
Originally posted by count
[B]Traditional training obviously has different methods of fight training. Training for strength, power, speed, endurance, overall conditioning come from specific training, not forms. (Feel free to discuss these.) Fighting within the context of the class, outside the class with others, in tournaments and competitions are also part of the training.
Some commercial schools probably have a problem with this either because of insurance liability or just keeping students who would otherwise walk away from the hard work and pain of learning martial arts. If all you are learning is forms, you will not be able to learn martial arts.
[/B]
sparring was frowned upon in japanese styles until the late 1920’s, and was still frowned upon by some after that. One notable man - ginchin funakoshi, thought that it downgraded the art. I’ve hear similar about some chinese styles. How was fighting a part of such training if it was frowned upon?
Originally posted by MasterKiller
[B]Why shouldn’t a guy be proud for putting in a shitload of hours working on a weapon form and then performing well in competition? Or for winning in Talou?
It takes a lot of time and commitment to get a decent level of skill in those areas. And then to have the nuts to get up in front of the world and display those skills is commendable. [/B]
Originally posted by SevenStar you should be.
I should be? Na…I’m not that guy. I hardly ever place in a forms comp. But for the people who do put in the time, they should be.
But often times these are the same cats that confuse being very good at doing forms with being a MARTIAL artist. Forget what would happen if that aluminum foil swinging guy was handed a Shinei and asked to fence with my master’s 100lbs daughter… I’m talking what can that person do to prevent a Seven Star, a Knifefighter, a Carl M. from going up to him after the competition and taking his medal, taking his bag of goodies, going up and planting a big wet one right on his girls lips.
What if these guys weren’t cool. What would that guy do? What could he do if they pushed the matter?
This guy of course is fictional, but we all know him and I’d go so far as to suggest he posts here.
